ROLIWRX

Evening one and all,
I've just receieved a notification of impending prosecution for speeding.
I was clocked at 116mph on a 70mph dual carriageway.
I presume I could be facing a ban but thoughts on possible punishment would be appreciated.

Yours absolutely cacking it. Roli.

MadGrip

I maybe wrong here, but I think unless your a celeb or footy player then anything over 100mph is a lost license.

not sure if its a temp ban or if you have to take the test again.

good look either way

subarujimmy

iTrader: (3)

Sad news mate, sorry to hear that Which dual carrriageway were you on?
I know a mate who got off for doing 112 in a 70 cos he got his employers to send a letter to the court stating if he loses his licence, he will lose his job. He got 9 points.

Fuzz

Exactly the same speed I got done for on the M69 on a sunny Sunday afternoon with no other traffic on the motorway.
My 306 D-Turbo was going flat out...

Three days into Scooby ownership and the court day arrived.

Bannned Sir for 42 Days with a £235 fine including costs.

didn't the new scoob ever get a good polishing that month!!

Andy

P.s that was *with* a nice letter from my Boss...

stuwrx

Sorry mate, bad luck, i know how you feel, a mate of mine is a copper (scum) and he says anything over a ton is a ban, unless your very lucky! all the best!!

IanW

It will be a court appearence for you I am afraid with those speeds, and more than likely a ban as well I am afraid.

softwizz

How were you clocked? If by an unattended camera etc., then don't, for goodness sake, do *anything* until you've looked at http://www.safespeed.org.uk/unsigned.html

Read *everything* on that page. The situation is fluid but there are several ploys which look capable of success.

I followed their advice some months ago, and though that advice is no longer the recommended ploy (things having been changed a bit by Yorke/Mawdsley), still my own alleged offence now seems to be out of time for a summons, and none has been issued.

If you were pulled at the time, the above may not be helpful... still worth a read though!

[Edited by softwizz - 9/15/2003 11:42:02 PM]

talizman

iTrader: (1)

softwizz,
He was clocked by a camera, as when you are "pulled" by the police, that serves as your official "Notice of Intended Prosecution"

If you receive one through the post, it is because you have been detected by remote means. Either that or the cops couldn't catch him!

Just tell them that you were having trouble taking off!

Seriously though, 66% over the limit is most probably a ban, and a hefty fine.

Bummer.

Edited to add.......

There are ways of getting off, but it means telling big porkies, and only works under certain circumstances.

Oh yeah, if you get found out, its Perverting the Course of Justice, and that could be a custodial sentence........

[Edited by talizman - 9/15/2003 11:57:22 PM]

softwizz

Talizman, I can't reconcile your comments with the known facts about Section 172 and Section 12. These facts do *not* require anyone to tell porkies, or even to break any statutes.

(1) There is no requirement in law to sign a NIP. Read S172 and you will find this to be the case. There is a growing number of written confirmations of this from various police forces.

(2) An unsigned NIP is not admissible as evidence under S12. Read S12 and you will find this to be the case. There is a growing number of written confirmations of this from various police forces.

(3) In the absence of any evidence other than the unsigned NIP, there is therefore no case to answer *unless* the CPS applies Judge Owen's ruling that the NIP can be considered as evidence under the Police And Criminal Evidence act.

(4) If an unsigned NIP is entered in evidence under PACE then there is a clear requirement on the authorities to explain to the recipient of the NIP his rights under PACE, *before* he fills in the NIP. This is not in place anywhere in the country, yet (it's a very recent development). When this requirement is breached the NIP cannot be entered in evidence under PACE.

SO, if you get Gatso'd or whatever, the only thing you won't be able to get out of is a clear, unenhanced picture of the incident, from which the driver can be clearly identified.

There are other wrinkles, such as getting Yorke-compliant (requires the NIP to be filled in by an agent) but that only adds a further level of protection. The fundamental protection is that S172 and S12 form a 'lacuna' (or hole in the law) as described by Mr Justice Ticehurst at Bristol in December 2002.

Do you disagree? Please be explicit!

[Edited by softwizz - 9/16/2003 12:21:25 AM]

calgonis

107 Mph on a motorway back in 1991.
Received a 2 month ban and 200pound fine 3 points, first driving offence They made an enourmous issue about how I was driving an Audi at 19, so slammed me hard (and told me they were going to make me an example because of this).. the fact that this was an 'A' reg bottom of the range 80 series never got mentioned. They even had a go at my poor old mum who came with me for letting me drive an AUDI at 19. But im not bitter as you can tell

80 Mph in a 40 zone (2 a.m.) in 1996, police were hiding behind a bus shelter with a radar. It was a fair cop, as I was toying with my friend in a RS TURBO van - they thought about trying to get me for street racing but then let it go as I wasnt accelerating at the time. 2 weeks ban and 80pound fine no points (Should have got nailed up for this but put in an Oscar winning performance in the court).

If you want to know how I got such a light sentance the second time ROLIWRX email me and Ill let ya know.. might work for you

calgonis@REMOVEhotmail.com

remove the REMOVE from the email address

Andrew

beemerboy

...Deserve all you get mate...!!!!

BB

talizman

iTrader: (1)

Some very valid points softwizz, however, all reliant on the so called "loophole"....

However, what if, as you quite rightly stated I believe that these are the effective measures that were taken to close the loophole as soon as it was exposed, and would thus make one fcuked!

My theory, and of course I would never encourage anyone to do it, is to simply deny ever being on *that* road at *that* time.

If there is reasonable doubt to suggest that there
may be a similar car wearing your number plates, you have no case to answer. Plain and simple.

More importantly, not gambling and being reliant on loopholes.

All IMHO of course.

softwizz

If you would actually *read* the web page that I cited, you'd find the following example letter written by someone working in the legal sphere. This is a graphical demonstration that the loophole is far from being closed and may actually have widened :-

Dear Sirs
Re: CASE REF NUMBER

Further to my previous correspondence regarding the above alleged motoring offence:

I have been informed that the Honourable Mr Justice Owen has decided [dpp v Yorke & Mawdesely 2003] that the Section 172 notice of the NIP amounts to a voluntary confession made under the provisions of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act [PACE].

I should be grateful if you would please detail why my legal rights under the provisions of PACE were not explained to me prior to my completion of the form.

I would like to submit the following skeleton argument and should be grateful if you would ensure that I receive a substantive reply by return:

1 The prosecution case is said to be based on a voluntary confession, which has, as aforementioned, been made under the provisions of The Police and Criminal Evidence Act [PACE].

2 I will submit that I was neither cautioned, nor offered an explanation of my rights, prior to being required to complete the voluntary confession (s172 of the NIP).

3 In the circumstances, I will submit that my rights under the provisions of PACE have been breached.

4 I will further submit that, as I was deprived of my rights under PACE, I have been deprived of my right, under Article 6 of the ECHR, to a fair trial and that I may be the victim of a malicious prosecution.

Under the circumstances therefore any prosecution is bound to fail.

In the light of this, you may wish to consider withdrawing your case rather than waste the Court's and witness' time. In the event that you decide to proceed with the case and my not guilty plea is successful, I will make an application for my costs.

I look forward to hearing from you by return.

ROLIWRX

It was the Chester Southerly By pass heading towards Wales.
Thanks for all the replies but now I really am cacking it.

Roli.

Beemer Boy comments noted,not appreciated.

scoobydooooo

i totally agree with beemer on this one , the thing is i {holds his right hand up}have not done that kind of speed on a bypass your honour

talizman

iTrader: (1)

softwizz,

There is no need for sarcasm, and just so you know, I have *NO* intention of reading the "web page that you cited", for the simple reason, that *I* have *not* been caught speeding and thus have no requirement to bore myself further...

What you fail to realise, is that "PACE" that you constantly quote, does not cross borders and therefore has no jurisdiction in the rest of the UK. Thankfully.

TimGR

Sounds like a hanging offence m8. Sorry.

softwizz

(1) the case under discussion is not in Scotland, so PACE does apply

(2) You seem to think that you're immune from this crazy scamera system, but you aren't. Sooner or later you will be snapped at an illegal speed, possibly somewhere where they deliberately reduced the speed limit on a short stretch for revenue-generating purposes. Then you'll need the information. Until then, you're welcome to your ignorance. No doubt it's bliss for you...

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

I got 3 points and a fine for 109 on the M3.

Told them I would lose my job if I lost my licence.

Steve

Mercury

Why are people quoting loopholes for ROLIWRX to try and avoid prosecution? He's obviously committed the offence and therefore, should pay the penalty!

It's bad luck Roli, but that's the chance you take when breaking the speed limit, that you will be clocked.

talizman

iTrader: (1)

Softwizz,

I have no idea why I'm replying to you, but I shall entertain you meantime as I find you most amusing.

I am in Scotland, so any suggestions I make to get off will apply in Scotland, so PACE doesn't apply.



An assumption on your part. Completely inaccurate.




Another assumption?



Again you assume I will.
I have all the information I'll ever require should I be unfortunate/silly enough to be flashed by a Gatso.


For whatever reason, your argument degenrates into personal insult.
How intelligent you are my friend.


I'm bored with you now, so in true childish fashion, I'll allow you to have the last word. I'm sure you won't be able to resist.

[Edited by talizman - 9/16/2003 11:10:35 AM]

softwizz

Mercury, how many times have you seen reports here and elsewhere of Scoobies and other motors stolen, sometimes even by direct hijacking or breaking into houses for the keys? Reports of cars vandalised in broad daylight? Reports of thefts from cars, of joyriding, of ramraids - the list goes on. What is Plod's general response to these? The owner is not a 'victim of crime', but is now characterised as a 'loser' of the property. In some places you have to pay to get notified when the missing vehicle eventually turns up abandoned - and they charge you garaging costs on a daily basis if it's moved to a safe place meanwhile. Forget about trying to find the villains, that takes too much effort and doesn't turn a profit. So the motorist and the traffic law is now the main focus of police attention. It pays them a good dividend.

That's why.

blueE9

At the risk of annoying the High Horse posse, I sent my NIP back unsigned and got the usual offer to accept 3 pts through with a threat that this was my last chance (well actually my last 4 chances it seems as the letters kept coming) followed by....silence....for months. So I'd give it a whirl if I was you.

Mercury

softwhizz, we are talking about a speeding offence, not other crimes so what you say is irrelevant to this particular thread.

Dan_Saff

i got nicked @104 on a14 i got 6pts £385 fine.

IMO they are turning all drivers into criminals, consantly on the look out for the camera's and police, and what do criminals do? look for ways to sneak out of getting nicked.

dan

softwizz

Mercury, I can't believe you wrote that.

I'll rephrase my argument. The reason that I for one will encourage those who fall foul of the Scamera system to find ways of avoiding being penalised, is because I consider *immoral* the actions of the police forces and the CPS in extorting speeding fines and imposing increased insurance premiums on road users, while simultaneously ignoring real crime.

I advise you to read up on what is happening in the real world over this. The fact that the traffic laws have this loophole in the first place, is because a tightly worded law would have fallen foul of the European Court of Human Rights. The issue is the right to silence and the right not to self-incriminate.

Consider the actual meaning of the NIP :- "Either you admit to this crime now, or you thereby commit a more serious crime for which we will impose a greater penalty". This flies in the face of natural justice.

RayC

its not always a ban for doing over a ton

I was minding my own business and got stopped doing 102 - average speed

i got £150 fine + £35 costs and 6 points (SP50)

Things not to

1) Ask the nice police man if you get royalties from Police camera action if he sends the video of you speeding in - you get a long lecture and some spittle on you face as he explains he has to tell lots of mums about dead sons in speeding cars!
2)smirk in court when they read oout the speed you were doing
3)wear white reebok classics in court

Things to do

1) enrol on a IAMS advanced driving course
2) Go to court nice and early (1 hour before they say) wearing a suit and tie, and white shirt, clean shave hair etc
3) look genuinly upset at your stupidity at speeding, look at the floor if necessary
4)DO NOT make excuses - its a powerful car meant to do it is not the right thing to say
5) say that you are sorry for what you did and that you realsie now the danger you put yourself and others in
6) say how you are improving yourself - your new driving course
7) apologise for taking up the courts time ona matter that you could have avoided
8) pray for leneincy

i reckon 2 weeks £450 notes if you are lucky, if you can go for points not a ban as even a 2 week ban stays on your license longer than 9 points

Good luck

ROLIWRX

Mercury you are right I'm not trying to avoid the prosecution,I got clocked and it's a fair cop(pardon the pun). I'm just trying to get an idea for what sort of punishment I can expect.

RAY C thanks for the advice,just what I was looking for I shall be taking up some of the tips you suggested.

Ray C after I've sent back my notice of intent to prosecute what happens next?

I'd be grateful if you could run through the mechanics of what happens next.

Cheers (resigned to the fact,but still feeling sick) Roli.

Mercury

ROLIWRX I know you weren't trying to avoid it, as per your question in your first post.

The question I asked was Why are people quoting loopholes for ROLIWRX to try and avoid prosecution? then softwhizz butts in with this gem.......
softwhizz,don't speak for others pal, nor expect everyone to think the same as you!!!

Fuzz

Ray C, you talking $h1t man. [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]

A ban stays on your licence no longer than any other point related incident.


WITH THE EXCEPTION OF.... drink, drugs or mowing someone over and removing them from the Gene pool offences.

4 years on licence (after which DVLA can remove them)
11 years for the drink, drugs and chipping over bonnet.

Andy

edit. to point finger at who I am talking to.

[Edited by Fuzz - 9/16/2003 6:37:04 PM]