krankyd

Just been watching the news about the first IVF baby that is now 26 years old.

What's the point in having IVF? does no-one believe in genetics?
If you're not able to have kids, this is probally down to recessive genes and faulty body functions. The natural course of evolution would be that these people don't have any offspring. Survival of the fittest...Don't you think that this is the reason why you can't pro-create?

There are thousands of kids that are requiring adoption - isn't this good enough for them? all the parents I heard about were all talking about 'their needs' and 'their choices'... so they aren't going to have kids because they want to bring another life into the world, they only want to feel better about themselves? is it me, or is that really selfish?

Markus

Whoa! Hope you got a heavy duty flame suit matey! lol

I don't have a problem with IVF, if I found that I or a partner were not capable of having children then I think IVF would be a recourse.

I don't think it's really fair to say that because of whatever reason, if you can't have kids 'normally' that you should be denied the experience of pregnancy and childbirth, it's something totally scary and amazing, and it'll change your life forever. And I think this is the main reason people don't want to adopt, as it removes this part of the bonding process.

I guess they could adopt a baby, as it would not know about it's real parents, but it's still not the same as having your own, and I think that's what the people were getting at.

I don't think people can fully comment on these type of things unless they have been in a similar position. Try and imagine if you were in the position where you were totally in love with your partner and you wanted a child and found you could not have one in the normal manner. Would it not upset you? would you not want to try everything possible to concieve? I know I would.

[Edited by Markus - 7/26/2003 6:33:32 PM]

Carter

Can of worms dude.

Should we therefore not treat diseases as they are the phenotypic expression of "recessive genes" (lol - death to the blue-eyed) and "faulty body functions"?

Start on that route and you're back in the trees eating raw meat.

krankyd

>>Should we therefore not treat diseases as they are the phenotypic expression of "recessive genes"

But if you knew that you had a fauly gene set that resulted in your offspring ending up with the same disease, you'd still have kids?

I'm probally in for a flame, but I'm not really in the mood to care. I just saw all this fuss on the telly, and can't see the whole point about it all.

Next time you can look at an orphan and say "no sorry kid, I'd prefer to have 12000UKP worth of operations and procedures that may result in a 10% increase in my sperm count" then I'll re-consider my opinion.

>>Would it not upset you? would you not want to try everything possible to concieve? I know I would.

Naah. my girlfriend has ginger hair, so it's a 50% possability of ginger kids

I'd always adopt in this case. It's crap to say you can't have the same love / feelings for a kid that you adopt. Mate, if there was no lead in the pencil, I'd get over it.



[Edited by krankyd - 7/26/2003 6:36:35 PM]

Carter

What, heart disease, diabetes, cancer? All those have a huge genetic component. Gotta die of something...

If you mean a real stone killer like Huntington's then fair enough, but they really are quite rare.

Markus

That's a good point there. Well, you can kill me off then, as I'm asthmatic, so I should not be allowed to pro-create then and possibly pass that down to my kids? plus I probably have very high blood pressure, also heriditry, so again, should I not be allowed to have children? Or is it only if the diease causes infertility?

Next you'll be talking about the steralisation of disabled people, then you'll get on about taking out the 'impure' hmm, I've heard talk like this before, from a small Austrian, can't remember his name.

Yes, I agree some people should not be allowed to procreate, but I'm talking about rapists, pedophiles, scum like that. Not the masses.

krankyd

>>That's a good point there. Well, you can kill me off then

That's not what I said... Don't be so mellow-dramatic :P

What I said was, if you knowingly had a faulty geneset, that you knew would be passed down to your offspring, would you still have kids?

I'm not trying to go down some arian-super-human-route, I just asked the question because I can't understand it myself.

As I said above, I personally (If I were in the situation) try to get over it. If I can't have kids, I can't have kids. Hell, I can't have a porsche either, but it doesn't stop me buying a second hand one? (probally a very bad anaolgy, and will bring out the screaming masses )


[Edited by krankyd - 7/26/2003 6:45:33 PM]

Carter

Can of Worms Part Deux - The Revenge!!

Woah dude. Are you saying that we should sterilise rapists and paedophiles as part of the sentence? How about unsafe convictions?

What if these "scum" are [krankyd]good genetic stock[/krankyd] and would enrich the gene pool (assuming that environmental factors alone were responsible for their reprehensible predilictions?

(Can of Worms III - coming soon...)

Markus

Never said I'd not have the same love or feelings if the kid was adopted, I would still love and care for them as if they were my own, and in the eyes of the law, they would be, but on a biological level they'd not be.

Some people want to get their on their own. There is something scary and wonderful to know that a child is growing inside a person you care about. That's kinda what I'm saying.

Yeah IVF aint exactly a walk in a park and it's not a guarentee of a child, but, well, for some people who crave and need to have a child, then it's the only option. I'm not a girl, so can't say what being pregnant feels like, but I can guess it's the whole maternal instinct thing.

Here's a flipside, someone CAN have kids the normal way, but choose to adopt, why? to aviod the hassles of pregnancy and babies. Yes, it's nice for the adopted child, but well, this does not seem right to me.

krankyd

>> for some people who crave and need to have a child

This is another thing.. Is it the parents that are really thinking about the children or themselves? is it the actual child, or the process of having the child? I know if there is something some else tells me "you can't ever have that", it makes me want it even more than before..

Markus

<Screaming Masses>

Ummm, not a good analogy. You're comparing a human being with a materialistic object.

Yeah, if I found out I could not have kids, then fine, I'd accept it, but if I wanted a child, then I would want the whole experience so I'd talk to my partner and find out what she wanted to do, if she want's the whole experience then we'd look into options, if not then we'd decide do we really want them and if so, adopt, or surrogate mother thing perhaps, not sure. It depends on a lot of factors, it really does.

tonybooth

[keep calm, do not swear]

This is a very personal subject for me and my wife that I am not about to get into on a public BBS. However, I am totally shocked and offended by your comments. This is a very immotive issue and one which clearly has never affected you.

Take your blinkers off at the same time as your rose-coloured glasses.

TONY

[/keep calm, do not swear]

Carter

Interesting. I think that in the richer Western countries our birthrate is below the level needed to maintain a population - so we're not reproducing fast enough to survive.

Is it our duty to breed?

Does it cast a new light on the "problem" of immigration? Could this be the only way to guarantee an influx of young workers to care for us aging childless natives?

Too much for me on a Saturday evening.

Markus

In an ideal world with a judicial system that was foolproof, yeah sterlise rapists and pedophiles. But it's not a perfect world, so no. I was making an extreme point, not sanctioning an action.

hmm, no smiles to put on this one, so I'll say I'm not having a go.

Carter

I would suggest not reading them then.

krankyd

>>This is a very immotive issue and one which clearly has never affected you. Take your blinkers off at the same time as your rose-coloured glasses.


Look mate, I don't understand, that's why I asked the question.

Markus

I think the parents are thinking of the children, of being able to love and care for another being that is an extension of their love for each other.

Some blokes are real blokes until they hold thier child in their arms for the first time, then they change.

Like I said, it's a personal feeling thing and not something I think anyone can really comment on until they are faced with it.

tonybooth

Carter

My god another **** [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]

Tony

Carter

Way to limit a discussion...

krankyd

>>Like I said, it's a personal feeling thing and not something I think anyone can really comment on until they are faced with it.

This is what I can't understand. I have personal feelings, but not about this? I can't talk about any subject unless I have specific first hand knowledge?
How about actually dying before I can discuss my insights with you about death?

Carter

Tony mate, just a question - do you ever stay up waaay past your bedtime to watch a TV program just so you can complain to the BBC about it?

I was just wondering. I mean, you click on a thread entitled "IVF treatment", which was a bit of a clue, then you read some comments from various schools of thought - again, not impossible to predict on a public discussion board - then post a "you're all Godless heathens" rant without actually saying why you think that, what your POV is, or really contributing at all.

WTF?

Note to Tony - someone you do not like does not = National Socialist.

Markus

Who you? Dr McCoy talking to Spock about death? lol

Was not trying to limit discussion. I can understand why you'd want to talk about it, but I think has we've found, it's emotive and tricky to talk about, simply as it is a personal thing.

Have you chatted with the missus about it? not having a go, being serious, she what she reckons on it all.

It would be great to have someone who has been through this type of thing to discuss their feelings, but, well, it aint going to happen some things you just don't discuss on a BBS. I'm a pretty open chap, will talk publically about most things, but there are some things I won't do publically (pagan fire dancing excepted )

krankyd

>>Who you? Dr McCoy talking to Spock about death?

lol - thought you would pick up on that

well, the last time I used scoobynet it was a place for open discussion... mabey a lot has changed.

I did speak to the g/f about this all, and she doesn't really want to have kids. No, seriously, she doesn't like them.

Mabey it's me, but I really can't get that worked up about the whole kids thing. This is why the whole IVF thing is a major puzzler.. I know I may be differenet, but that different to everyone else?


>> but, well, it aint going to happen some things you just don't discuss on a BBS

probally.. I just had to say something, even if I was called a mass murdering war machine :O.. .. you ever get those days when something really gets your goat and you have to say something?

[Edited by krankyd - 7/26/2003 7:09:11 PM]

Markus

Hey, course I'll pick up on the ST reference!

Not saying SN has changed go ahead, discuss, nothing better than a good debate. Was speaking from personal viewpoint as there are some things *I* would not talk about here. In a room with some friends (and yes, most of them would be from here) yes, I'd talk about things, publically, for the world to see? nah, not the worlds business sometimes. Anyway, not having a go.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, gotchat now! you should have pointed that out in the first place matey! mentioned you'd chatted to wifey about it all.

At this precise moment in time, kids are a strange thing for me. I have my reasons, and if you got me in the corner of the pub one day I might tell you about it, but I doubt it. certanily nothing I'm willing to discuss very publically on here. So, right here and now, I'd not want kids, however, does not mean that this won't change in a month or years time. Changes in circumstances can change your ideas about things, what once you were so sure on, can change in a heartbeat.

Each to his own though, you don't want kids, fine no problem at all. Now you'll get somone telling you why you SHOULD have kids lol, but that aint gonna be me.

Right now I'd rather have weimeraner puppies, simply as they are adorable little things, plus if you don't like them, you can sell them, try doing that with kids (ok, baaaad thing to say I know)

[Edited by Markus - 7/26/2003 7:13:58 PM]

tonybooth

Carter

>>Tony mate, just a question - do you ever stay up waaay past your bedtime to watch a TV program just so you can complain to the BBC about it?<<

Clearly you already have.

The main reason I clicked on the topic was because someone could have been after some advice, which I would have freely given - off-line.

krankyd

If you really are interested in the subject and would like to understand it more then fair play, their is plenty of resource out there, but you have to admit your original post is more of a human supremecy style rant rather than a multi question raising debate opener.

Tony

tonybooth

Oh Carter.............

By ****** I was referring to your attitude not you as a person - as I have never actually met you.

TONY

krankyd

>>Each to his own though, you don't want kids, fine no problem at all. Now you'll get somone telling you why you SHOULD have kids

Cheers mate. Seems like it hasn't changed that much, as someone can ask a question and get a answer to boot

If I ever wanted a kit, I would borrow one from my brother. the nice thing is that I can give them back in the evening, filled up and hyperactive with sweets and PS2 games, and let him have the fun

Carter

Arf. Thank you for your clarification.

Please quote the post you feel best represents my **** tendencies.

I would be fascinated to find out where Josef Mengele and I meet like brothers.

nb - "clearly you already have" - I hate to repeat myself, but - WTF?

krankyd

>>f you really are interested in the subject and would like to understand it more then fair play, their is plenty of resource out there, but you have to admit your original post is more of a human supremecy style rant rather than a multi question raising debate opener.

Fair play... Mabey I could have worded it better... How about I can't understand anyone who would want a fast car, as my fiesta goes fast enought for me

It was the whole IVF thing that got to me, but I suppose the basic question was more about genetics. IVF just seemes to be the most public meduim.

My basic (big) question really was this:

If we are gradually evolving as a speciese (SP) what part will genetics get to play? I think an ever decreasing part. More and more of the natural selection (not **** war machine before you ask) is being removed, and people are being granted options that (before) would not have been an option.

I think that this may lead us humans to a slightly sticky resolution. Natural selection has played a big part in human evolution over the last 2 million years, yet in the last 100 we just chop it out... what's gonna happen in the end?

tonybooth

Carter

Bored already.

krankyd

Going out on lash now, will pick up on thread tomorrow.

TONY