Little Miss WRX

My physio has recommended Adidas to me.

For people who have a known pronation problem that arises from flat footedness and have to wear orthotics to correct this, what type of trainer can you recommend from running (mainly grass track running)?

Many thanks in advance....

Michelle.

Little Miss WRX

You see I have seen some Adidas Clima Cool 2 trainers knocked down from $220 to $140.
They have medium support which is for normal through to flat foot type of runner.
I am tempted, but the heel doesn't quite look high enough for adding orthotic soles into the trainer for support.

I might just get them anyway unless anybody really disagrees. Have actually been told to steer clear of Nike, Asics may be a goer, but not really caught anything that is comfortable. New Balance seem a good option.

Any advice?

Nick_TypeUK

i found some X training shoes have high and well supported insteps

Little Miss WRX

I was told to avoid cross trainers, I forget the reason why. He told me to stick with "specialised" running trainers.

ChrisB

Ask a podiatrist not a physio Chelle.

Ozzy can tell you more

Little Miss WRX

I am hoping that Ozzy reads this.

I haven't yet been to a podiatrist, but the physio I see works closely with the podiatrist who is onsite at the NSW Soccer place - he usually passes on recommendations the podiatrist suggests as opposed to going on what he himself thinks I should do.

Ian_S

I would be interested to know too, I get pain in my foot and the doctor says im a bit flat footed, kills when wearing shoes for work, bit better when i have my nike air max on but still hurts and need some new ones.

Burt

If you go to a decent Athletics shop they will sort you out. They will fit the trainers to how you run (not sure on the terminalogy but some people wher the oustide heel of their shoes and others have another problem)

Hope this helps, was the advice given to me by an experienced runner at work.

Cheers
Burt

wilf

I understand your plight. I bought some new running trainers recently and must have put on dozens and dozens of different shoes.

Its definitely a case of try before you buy. Most people buy shoes for the look when they're crap when it comes to support or impact absorbtion etc

Ended up with some Nike Pegasus. This was after trying nearly everything in Reebock, Asics, Brooks, Puma, Addidas.......you name it I've tried it.

Next time I'm gonna buy through a runners mag.

ozzy

You called

Hi 'chelle,

Ideally you need to see a podiatrist. I don't know what they cost over there for a few sessions, but it's money well spent. I went through at least 5 physio's (and even one podiatrist) before I finally found out one leg was shorter than the other and just how much my feet were out of their correct position.

The different types of manufacturer tend to have pro's and con's with them. Basically all my physio's told me to look for trainers with arch support. Some are better than others and I spent months experimenting and wasted a few pairs of trainers until I found a pair that worked for me. These happened to be Asics GT2060's and I just bought the newer model every year since. All the physio's said they were a decent shoe and my first podiatrist didn't really comment whether they were good or bad and even if they would work with my first pair of insoles. I was still getting lots of problems, so they weren't really helping.

Then I saw another podiatrist in Edinburgh and she took some proper measurements of my legs to find out exactly how good or bad they were. Turns out to be something mad like 20 degrees out. So, when my ankles, feet, knees and hips are in alignment, my feet aren't and it looks like I'm walking along a barrel

Anyway, after getting my new orthotics made, my Podiatrist gave me some advice on what to look for in a shoe. Since the shoes have to help the orthotic work I needed:-

a) a neutral shoe (not one that helps over or under pronators),
b) one with a deep heel cup (to cope with the extra depth of the orthotic heel)
c) one that has firm cushioning (to stop my heel rotating as the heel cushion compresses)
d) one that flexes well in the forefoot (to help push off with the toes)
e) one that's supportive enough that it doesn't twist easily (i.e. grap the hell and toe and see how much you can twist the show)

I've been through a couple of trainers in the 6 weeks I've had the orthotics. Luckily, the specialist running shop in Edinburgh allow you to take the shoes back as long as you've only used them on a treadmill and they're in a new condition.

I first tried some New Balance runners, but they were very unsupportive. Next were Saucony, Brooks and a pair of Asics shoes . The Asics felt good, but they soon became a nightmare when I went for a run. They were just too big around the toes and didn't support my heel well enough. They just didn't have enough depth in the heel for the orthotics, so it felt like my ankle would collapse out of the shoe.

I was told to stay clear of Nike and Adidas as the cushioning was just too soft for me.

I must have tried on at least 8 or 9 pairs of runners and spent almost the whole afternoon in the shop. I finally tried some Asics Gel-Kumo and they felt good straight away, so I bought those.

It's been about 2 weeks and I've did about 10 runs in them all around 40 mins, with a couple longer runs of just over an hour.

With my other trainers, I felt the pain all the time during the runs. With every foot strike it was like someone tapping my shin with a hammer. With these new trainers, I'm pain free during the runs but as soon as I stop they're on fire. A good hose down with cold water and some ice afterwards soon gets rid of this.

I think my shin is just inflammed from the months of running beforehand and it's just going to take time to settle back down. Last week I ran everyday and although it was sore at night, I was pain free during the run and at the end of the day, I'd be happy with that.

Unless you have a top notch physio or one that's trained in podiatry, he'll not be able to recommend what you need. The best advice would be to get yourself down to a podiatrist and get them to measure if your feet need to be supported with orthotics. They should make little pen marks on the back of your legs and ankle and use a specialist protractor to work out just how much (if any) you're out from a neutral position.

Once you know how bad the problem is, they can recommened types of shoe to look for that will work well with any orthotic. They shouldn't recommend a particular manufacturer as they vary so much.

Asics work for me, but you may suit a completely different shoe. Once you know what to look for, you need a specialist running shop that can help too suggest runners that match your specific criteria. Then it's all down to you I'm afraid. You simply need to try them on a decide what feels good or bad. This is when it really gets difficult as some will feel just as good as the other and I doubt there's a golden shoe with your name on it out there.

I normally just go with one that feels good and try it out on a treadmill. If it doesn't feel right after 30mins, then I'll usually take them back and try another pair.

To be honest, it's a nightmare. I think most experienced runners spend years finding one they like and them stick with it come hell or high water. I've seen people with natty old trainers simply refusing to change them because they're frightened they'll not get the same comfort from a brand new pair; now I know why.

And the biggest problem of all is there damn expensive if you get it wrong

The physio may talk to a podiatrist to discuss your problem, but as far as I'm concerened if they don't take actual measurements and look at your problem in raw figures it's only ever going to be talk. You need to know the exact extent of the problem because if you have a biomechanical problem then a trainer that corrects this is a 1 in a million shot. If the problems bad, get some orthotics and then look for some trainers to compliment them.

Good luck,

Stefan

FASTER MIKE!!

i use saucony grid and on my second pair not the best looking shoe but thats not realy the point . have a look on here and type in pronation on the search and it will tell which trainers will be suitable. should be able to tell you if the addidas shoe is any good

mike

[Edited by FASTER MIKE!! - 7/14/2003 8:08:23 PM]

ozzy

I've used:-

Nike Air Max (1st pair after 5 year lay off from any running )
Hi-tec Silver Shadow (RM issue and not recommended for anyone)
Saucony Grid Stabil (very uncomfortable and probably too supportive)
Brooks Beast (nightmare from day one. worst pair ever - for me that is)
Asics GT-2060 (not bad)
Asics GT-2070 (felt reasonable good with my 1st pair of orthotics)
Asics GT-2080 (getting better)
Acics Gel Cumulous (1st attempt with new orthotics; not good)
Asics Gel Kumo (feel very good so far - only time will tell)

It's also worth mentioning that with my fallen arches my feet actually went up a size (11 UK) and with the orthotics I'm back down to a size 10.

I still feel you need to see the podiatrist before you spend any money a a new pair of runners.

Stefan

[Edited by ozzy - 7/14/2003 8:29:58 PM]

ozzy

'chelle,

Here's a pic of my orthotics If you've got weird feet like me, you'll need more than a decent set of runners



Stefan

Foot_Tapper

Here's the Runners World website.Has some useful bit n bobs that may help. You may already have it but here it is anyway.
Certainly helped me a few times.

www.runnersworld.com

Little Miss WRX

I didn't have time to formulate a suitable reply before I ventured out to the shops today, but I read everything that was posted and took it on board - Ozzy as always you are an absolute wealth of fantastic information.

I walked to the shops - temperature today was around 20 degrees and it was late in the day so my feet would be at "maximum expansion".
I took along my temporary orthotics and also socks that I would be wearing whilst running.

I went into Foot Locker and In Sport, the sales assistances were not very helpful and I walked out after little time.
After wandering around a bit more I went into The Athlete's Foot and looked at their display.
They had a set area for shoes that were designed to provide motion control and other specialised services to your feet.
An assistant came up and asked me what I was looking for so I basically gave her the list that Ozzy put above.
She brought down three different varieties - Ryka, Asics and Brooks showing me what I wanted to be looking for and telling me the slight differences between each shoe. She didn't push any brand towards me and said that she would pick out three more if none of those suited me.

The first I tried on were the Rika ones who design shoes for women. Their big bonus is that the heel is wide enough to cope with an orthotic sole, but not too wide, the forefoot is very wide (I have wide feet which is why I normally choose mens runners) and cushioned. The arch support was well back which is good for me also.
I slipped in the orthotics and put the shoes on - these were the most comfortable runners I have ever tried. Snug, but not too snug, very supportive, but not overly so. Good base around the heel preventing me from rolling over either side, good arch support complimenting the orthotic sole. I had a run on them and I ran straight for once!!! Did a few turns and the shoe really helped with balance and I felt little pain in my shins which are still recovering.

I then went for the Asics one - Gel Kumo equivelant I think they were and they felt very flat and unresponsive. They didn't have the same type of fit and felt uncomfortable, I didn't even really want to try them out running.

Last was the Brook shoe which as soon as I put on I took it off - the arch felt like it was near my toes instead of where it should be! Completely worked against my orthotics.

I tried a few more on, the Adidas (they felt crap), Nike (they crap too) and New Balance (they felt okay, but not good enough)

The Rika KM5 shoes were just stunning. Almost as if they were designed specifically for my feet. I was pretty sure that these were for me, so I asked if I could go off and try them out properly. They agreed and I gave them a bit of a proper run.

I was sold.

They were $190 and well spent. I now have a decent pair of running shoes that I am happy to train on and although I haven't got my proper orthotics sorted yet, they will be sufficient IMHO to work with my current orthotics.
If my podiatrist recommends another shoe then fair enough, but these are very comfortable and I have very little pain in my shins after walking/running in them. This pleases me as I am still not 100% recovered.



[Edited by Little Miss WRX - 7/15/2003 9:40:54 AM]

Foot_Tapper

LMWRX, If the shoes are comfortable to run in for a period of time then all sounds ok.
If you overdo your training, your respitory system make be able to cope, but the more distance you do, your body needs to recover and adjust.
Shin problems, like shin "splints" affect a lot of people.
Same happened to me, you can breathe ok so you push a bit harder,
and do more miles.
You get to a stage that your body cannot adjust quickly enough.
I believe what happens is; the muscles within the the leg attached to the shin bone (whatever its called) tear away; giving you the pain.
The only way out is to STOP running for around a week, let your body recover. When you resume running take it easy.
You need a schedule that is progressive but not too much.
Only increase your mileage by a maximum of 10% per week.
After 2 weeks of increasing, back off on the next week to recover.
IE WEEK 1....15 Miles
WEEK 2....16.5 Miles
WEEK 3....16 Miles
WEEK 4....18 Miles
WEEK 5....20 Miles
WEEK 6....18 Miles
WEEK 7....22 Miles
If you have a long run on a particular day , IE a Sunday; it should not exceed 33% of your total weeks mileage.
These "rules of thumb" are in loads of training books & do work
Some other good Rules are, DON'T
make up lost time because of injury
run with a cold or feeling off colour

Have fun

ozzy

I agree with Foot_Tapper, if you keep running through the problem it will only catch up with you. I've been increasing my running over the last month or so and last week I ran 6 times for at least 45mins even though my shins were pretty sore.

I didn't run for the previous 3 days, then went for a 5-mile run last night and was up & down all night with sore shins. Looks like I'll be using my mountain bike for the next fortnight

So, take it easy and don't overdo it like me.

Stefan

Little Miss WRX

Ozzy.

I have already learnt the hard way. I first got signs of shin splints a few weeks back after a weekend of refereeing, having had them before I should have actioned the treatment straight away. Trouble is, I had a big weekend of refereeing lined up for the weekend afterwards. I stupidly did 10 games that weekend and suffered badly. I couldn't walk properly. I saw my physio who started on treatment (I was seeing him twice a week). The next weekend I didn't feel as much pain, so I did a few games (5).
Bad idea! I was worse the following week.

Fortunately, the last couple of weeks games have been washed out and I have had to take a rest regardless. Recovery has been painfully slow and I am eager to get going again. I am doing a lot of walking on grass and loads of calf stretching, massaging my own calves and resting.

I doubt I will be fit enough to partake in games this weekend, my left shin is definitely the worse - it was aggravated by me going over on ankle and causing some minor ligament and tendon damage.

Foot_Tapper, thanks for the advice there. I shall be doing a slightly lesser pattern than the one you have listed there as I am not confident in my knees and need to really sort my breathing out.
Asthma wise for light jogging over a period of 90 minutes combined with some fast sprints (usual format for a game) I am using my blue puffer around 20 times maybe more just to keep my airways open for that duration.

Little Miss WRX

I should also take a piccie of my temporary orthotics, they look as distinguished on the arches as yours are.

I will bring up with the podiatrist the possibilities of one leg being shorter than the other as with you just in case I do have more than flat feet. The issues that you have had, hopefully I can now avoid!

ozzy

'chelle,

do you get pain on the inside of both shins (Periostitis) and where it's highlighted on this pic?



Oddly enough, I only get problems on the inside of my right leg. The left is always pain free

Stefan

Little Miss WRX

Yup, the muscle has been very, very inflamed there to the point where massage was not a good idea and resulted in me growling at my physio if he dared approach my legs with that Sorbelene stuff. !!!! I couldn't bear to be touched there and the backs of my calves were extremely tight and painful too.
The pain extended down into my ankles and the tiny bumps that you can normally feel on the front of your tibia were pronounced.

Foot_Tapper

Hi Michelle,
you say a lesser pattern than my example, how often do you do those 90 minute sessions ??(combined with sprints) if you you can do that; the week 1, i listed would be a doddle.
Total 15 miles for WEEK.
Monday.... 2.....20 mins a 10mins per mile pace
Tuesday... 3.....30 mins a 10mins per mile pace
Wednesday .rest
Thursday...2
Friday.....3
Saturday...rest
Sunday.....5
all jogging.
Someone got me into this just to keep them company for a one off 10 mile race; and i just carried on doing it for a year or so.
I also used to play sunday footy, my running was excellent for this. As i had all the stamina.
One thing tho, I never did any sprint training until i had 3 months under the belt.
Sprint training requires even more rest, as it takes more out of you.
When i started fast runs or sprint training, I was advised to use
this method. I began with 3 sets of 800 metres.
You need a benchmark of your fitness levels.
Take your resting pulse, before you start the first run.
Count number of beats in 6 second period and multiply by 10.
You need to run the distance as fast as you can, and time it.
You should not train above 70% of max, so if you divide the time you took for first run by 0.7 you should get the time for rest of
sessions.
After each session you should wait until your pulse is back to resting speed.( as you become fitter, you will notice the time to achieve this becomes less)
If you can do this on a track it becomes easier to judge the pace required, as you can divide the time for 2 laps into segments of track. You soon get used to pacing yourself.
You should only do one speed session a week.And keep a log of how far/long you do.
The thing about a "regime" like this is; it helps you stop yourself overtraining. And you will probably get fitter quicker.
Cheers
Glenn

Little Miss WRX

The only problem I see is my asthma. My natural resting heartbeat is quite fast due to the side effect of taking Ventolin and Serevent for my asthma (the other inhalers don't affect heart rate). When I exercise, my heart rate does rise considerably combined with a greater intake of Ventolin. However, it does come down very quickly once I stop exercising.

I tend to be a bad person for training on my own, hence why I am slacking so much, I need to find a running partner over here.

With regards to how much I do, I commonly do around 5 or 6 90 minute matches over two days.

Foot_Tapper

Jeeeez , dont bother training, just rest for most of the week.

Little Miss WRX

LMAO - that is what I am doing now.

I need to be less lazy and start getting my body used to doing this!

The other failing I have is that when the soccer/footie season is over, I tend to completely lax in my training full stop. The close proximity of the oval grass track and gym is a better spur for me.
I have an open air Olympic size pool, full gym and grass oval track 100 metres from me - I need to start making use of them (except the pool - swimming is an evil thing ). THe only thing is I need a training partner!

I would ask ChrisB to come across, but he would only end up getting me in trouble sooner or later.

ChrisB

For the record everyone...

When LMW was chasing me around the gym trying to soak me with water, her shin splints suddenly heal up.

As Paul Daniels once said... that's magic

Little Miss WRX

I didn't have shin splints at the time and you instigated everything. ******.

Little Miss WRX

Been out for a wee jog and thinks seem very promising.

Little Miss WRX

My right leg has seeming recovered a lot better than my left.

I am still experiencing pain "on the bone" all the way up my shin and have tenderness around my ankle. I am going to see my physio tomorrow to talk to him about why my left leg has got worse and my right leg has got better. That tells me that the orthotics and new trainers are working well for my right, but something is still not right with my left.
I don't think I'll be refereeing this weekend. I am limping still.

ozzy

'chelle,

You may need to rest completely for a few weeks for the inflammation in the muscle to settle down (or go away completely). I've stopped running completely after I had hardly any sleep on Monday night after my last run. I kept waking up with the pain in my right shin, ouch

It's settled down pretty quickly and there's only some discomfort even when I rub quite hard with my fingers. I think I might just have been overdoing things.

Do you have access to a treadmill and a camcorder? This may sound strange , but it might be worth recording your legs whilst running on a treadmill. That way you can analyse it with your physio and a podiatrist to see exactly how the new runners and orthotics are correcting (or not) and problems.

I noticed on the treadmill last week that my right leg seems to swing out and back in when I'm running (rather than coming straight through in direct line with my thigh & knee). I *think* this suggests a tightness in the hamstring (or even lower back) and would upset my running style. Could be one reason why my right leg is worse than my left

I don't know about you, but when my physio or podiatrist have checked my gait, it's always just been walking backwards and forwards in front of them. My common-sense would say that it doesn't give an accurate indication of problems I have when I'm running. Surely, they should examine me whilst I'm actually running???

Stefan