who wants to join europe now?
13 March 2003, 10:29 PM
#1
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French never have and never will do us any favours.
Going to veto the second resolution.
would have thought they would be a tiny bit more grateful to the ones who liberated them during the last war.
UN looking more and more like the league of nations with spineless backing.
Vive la France.....NOT!
Going to veto the second resolution.
would have thought they would be a tiny bit more grateful to the ones who liberated them during the last war.
UN looking more and more like the league of nations with spineless backing.
Vive la France.....NOT!
13 March 2003, 10:50 PM
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Shrek, everyone is entitled to there opinion but I personally can not see why Briton is so anti europe. Let me elaborate.
Briton IS already part of europe it is one of the major players in europe but does not want to be part of the single currency, having a different currency in every country of europe was a pain in the ****, then came the euro which is great, it is a standard currency which can be used in most countries of europe and has the same value. The problem with a United States of Europe is that there will never be a single government like in the United States of America,there are to many wouldbe dictators, there is also not a common language and IMHO never will be due to national pride. Everyone says the international language is English but you try telling that to a person of a non english speaking country. I also think it will not work with Britain because they will have to drop taxes and prices to come into line with mainland europe which the UK government will never do because they say they can not afford to. I send money home to my bank account in England every month and it cost me 27 euros in bank charges and that does not take into account the exchange rate. I think it wil be better if Britain did join europe properly instead of only picking the bits they like about being part of it.
This is my opinion only and not meant to offend anyone.
[Edited by Wurzel - 3/13/2003 10:51:37 PM]
Briton IS already part of europe it is one of the major players in europe but does not want to be part of the single currency, having a different currency in every country of europe was a pain in the ****, then came the euro which is great, it is a standard currency which can be used in most countries of europe and has the same value. The problem with a United States of Europe is that there will never be a single government like in the United States of America,there are to many wouldbe dictators, there is also not a common language and IMHO never will be due to national pride. Everyone says the international language is English but you try telling that to a person of a non english speaking country. I also think it will not work with Britain because they will have to drop taxes and prices to come into line with mainland europe which the UK government will never do because they say they can not afford to. I send money home to my bank account in England every month and it cost me 27 euros in bank charges and that does not take into account the exchange rate. I think it wil be better if Britain did join europe properly instead of only picking the bits they like about being part of it.
This is my opinion only and not meant to offend anyone.
[Edited by Wurzel - 3/13/2003 10:51:37 PM]
14 March 2003, 01:30 AM
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well its a load of **** isn't it? I work in finance and stand to gain a great deal - but the reasons for are pathetic, even our gordon realises that now - but different currencies exist for a reason, minimal upside - huge downside. europe is a bit like a ducati, looks sweet but never quite lives up to its billing and breaks down on a rainy day on the side of the M4
14 March 2003, 08:34 AM
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I think it was Lord marshall of BA who argued the case for joining europe and one of his so called benefits of joining was that we wouldnt have to worry about changing money at the airport and paying commission fees, well f**k me thats a really important decisive factor!!! jeez these guys are fools!
Gary
Gary
14 March 2003, 08:42 AM
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I'm keeping an open mind. If you look at the popular news statistics though, things do look like Eurocrats are "taking a swipe" at Britain.
To the average man on the street, "Europe" means lots of money going to Spanish fishermen, straight bananas, kilograms instead of pounds, and God knows how many other silly resolutions that get highlighted in the press.
I'd be interested to see what the actual benefits to Britain are. As someone said in another thread, France looks after the French, and it is about time Britain started looking after the British.
To the average man on the street, "Europe" means lots of money going to Spanish fishermen, straight bananas, kilograms instead of pounds, and God knows how many other silly resolutions that get highlighted in the press.
I'd be interested to see what the actual benefits to Britain are. As someone said in another thread, France looks after the French, and it is about time Britain started looking after the British.
14 March 2003, 09:26 AM
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friday morning rambling ...
joining the eurozone inevitably means the degradation of our home rule. financial governance will have to become more centralised and that means interest rates and tax raising powers will be set centrally and not in westminster.
there are relative benefits on both sides of the debate. ata fundamental level however, i want key policies set by my own government that i can vote for. not a giant, undemocratic, unaccountable and provenly-corrupt quango that the is EU currently. i take sovereignty and maximum self-determination very seriously. it's something i value.
we're already in europe and trading extensively with it - fractionally under half our foreign trade is with the EU. the machine ain't broke so don't fix it.
sure staying out makes thinks a bit more difficult for exporting manufacturers. but manufacturing is not the engine of the UK economy anymore - it contributes between just 11%-13% to GDP. i think it's a little misleading for the pro-euro camp to say that we have to do it for the manufacturers. they are an economic minority now. we're a service-based economy with 52% of our foreign trade with the US and rest of the world.
the euro will only ever be as strong as the weakest link in the chain. that economic (and foreign) policy for the UK could be driven by the needs of much weaker economies like greece, portugal or italy fills me with disquiet. it has the effect of pulling up weaker economies at the expense of the stronger ones.
i have greek relatives and they love the euro. but it's the french and the germans that are paying for it for them.
lastly, it's too early to tell if the experiment is going to work. we need at least a decade to see what the +/- long term impacts are: how the stronger economies are affected, performance against the dollar zone etc.
there's no shame - and no real loss - in waiting, watching and analysing.
lastly, i just don't *want* to be joined at the governmental hip to the continental europeans. we have a natural role as a bridging point between the new world and the old world and i like it that way. it's unique, it works and enables us, on balance currently, to get the best of both worlds.
realistically, the current diplomatic freeze with france and germany has deep-sixed any possibility of a referendum on the euro - in this parliament or the next. a lot of people would now rather stick needles in their eyes than get into bed with the capricious french. me included.
joining the eurozone inevitably means the degradation of our home rule. financial governance will have to become more centralised and that means interest rates and tax raising powers will be set centrally and not in westminster.
there are relative benefits on both sides of the debate. ata fundamental level however, i want key policies set by my own government that i can vote for. not a giant, undemocratic, unaccountable and provenly-corrupt quango that the is EU currently. i take sovereignty and maximum self-determination very seriously. it's something i value.
we're already in europe and trading extensively with it - fractionally under half our foreign trade is with the EU. the machine ain't broke so don't fix it.
sure staying out makes thinks a bit more difficult for exporting manufacturers. but manufacturing is not the engine of the UK economy anymore - it contributes between just 11%-13% to GDP. i think it's a little misleading for the pro-euro camp to say that we have to do it for the manufacturers. they are an economic minority now. we're a service-based economy with 52% of our foreign trade with the US and rest of the world.
the euro will only ever be as strong as the weakest link in the chain. that economic (and foreign) policy for the UK could be driven by the needs of much weaker economies like greece, portugal or italy fills me with disquiet. it has the effect of pulling up weaker economies at the expense of the stronger ones.
i have greek relatives and they love the euro. but it's the french and the germans that are paying for it for them.
lastly, it's too early to tell if the experiment is going to work. we need at least a decade to see what the +/- long term impacts are: how the stronger economies are affected, performance against the dollar zone etc.
there's no shame - and no real loss - in waiting, watching and analysing.
lastly, i just don't *want* to be joined at the governmental hip to the continental europeans. we have a natural role as a bridging point between the new world and the old world and i like it that way. it's unique, it works and enables us, on balance currently, to get the best of both worlds.
realistically, the current diplomatic freeze with france and germany has deep-sixed any possibility of a referendum on the euro - in this parliament or the next. a lot of people would now rather stick needles in their eyes than get into bed with the capricious french. me included.
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14 March 2003, 10:18 AM
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just thinking aloud again.
bob geldof is a vocally against the euro (don't know if any of you saw the cinema advert he did with rik mayall, harry enfield etc that the pro-euro camp took offence at...)
i suspect (and sincerely hope) that should a referendum be called, blair (or brown if he's PM by then) will be facing a "no" vote championed by sir bob.
and who has the most equity with the public? absolutely no contest. i think geldof's potential involvement would actually prevent a referendum even taking place, such would his sway be.
bob geldof is a vocally against the euro (don't know if any of you saw the cinema advert he did with rik mayall, harry enfield etc that the pro-euro camp took offence at...)
i suspect (and sincerely hope) that should a referendum be called, blair (or brown if he's PM by then) will be facing a "no" vote championed by sir bob.
and who has the most equity with the public? absolutely no contest. i think geldof's potential involvement would actually prevent a referendum even taking place, such would his sway be.
14 March 2003, 10:31 AM
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Paulr sorry M8 I don't have a mortgage but I can tell you that it is a damn site cheaper to borow money here than in the uk. Both on loans from the bank and on finance on cars. The amount of interest I am paying on my car finance is not even worth talking about.
14 March 2003, 11:05 AM
#16
Following this with interest.
I'd like to throw one or two points into the debate:
WHY do we want to keep the right to set our own interest/tax rates when ours are higher than ANY in Europe? Do we REALLY want to pay more for our houses, motors, booze, fuel, **** etc etc etc etc? And just WTF does our government DO with all this extra money? 'Cos it sure as hell ain't invested round my way!!![img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]
When travelling in Europe, why do they seem to have so much more infrastructure construction going on? They are benifitting(SP?) from being in the Euro? You've only to look at Eire since they joined, to see it.
If we do 48% of our trade with Europe, it matters NOT ONE JOT whether it's manufacturing or owt else. When the bills are paid, someone, somewhere, is taking between 5% and 10% of each and every bill for changing it from £>€>£ etc. WHY do we want to keep paying this? It's BOUND to be passed onto the customer. Us!!!
Never mind changing money at the airport, that's small beer
:. It's the daily moneychanging that's making millions for someone, at OUR expense, and I for one, resent paying it when others don't have to.
Losing our right to govern/our sovereignty? I don't think so. This is hysterical nonsense, whipped up by the anti-Euro people. Do the French look as if they have no right to decide THEIR own future at the moment??
The Germans: the main reason they are in shtuck is that they have to pay a reunification tax to finance the development of the old GDR. If we suddenly took on TOTAL responsibility for, say, Poland, (no offence to anyone here), we'd be in the same boat, or worse.
The Greeks: Of course some countries take more out than others. That's because they are poorer, but the idea is to raise them to our level, then we can stop giving them so much. That's why the amounts are renegotiated every few years. If you'd stop that, would you also stop foreign aid? It's the same principle, except we get more back from Europe than we're ever likely to see from some of the 3rd world countries we give to........and no, I wouldn't stop that either!
Just my two pennerth. Standing by to be flamed:
Alcazar
I'd like to throw one or two points into the debate:
WHY do we want to keep the right to set our own interest/tax rates when ours are higher than ANY in Europe? Do we REALLY want to pay more for our houses, motors, booze, fuel, **** etc etc etc etc? And just WTF does our government DO with all this extra money? 'Cos it sure as hell ain't invested round my way!!![img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]
When travelling in Europe, why do they seem to have so much more infrastructure construction going on? They are benifitting(SP?) from being in the Euro? You've only to look at Eire since they joined, to see it.
If we do 48% of our trade with Europe, it matters NOT ONE JOT whether it's manufacturing or owt else. When the bills are paid, someone, somewhere, is taking between 5% and 10% of each and every bill for changing it from £>€>£ etc. WHY do we want to keep paying this? It's BOUND to be passed onto the customer. Us!!!
Never mind changing money at the airport, that's small beer
:. It's the daily moneychanging that's making millions for someone, at OUR expense, and I for one, resent paying it when others don't have to.Losing our right to govern/our sovereignty? I don't think so. This is hysterical nonsense, whipped up by the anti-Euro people. Do the French look as if they have no right to decide THEIR own future at the moment??
The Germans: the main reason they are in shtuck is that they have to pay a reunification tax to finance the development of the old GDR. If we suddenly took on TOTAL responsibility for, say, Poland, (no offence to anyone here), we'd be in the same boat, or worse.
The Greeks: Of course some countries take more out than others. That's because they are poorer, but the idea is to raise them to our level, then we can stop giving them so much. That's why the amounts are renegotiated every few years. If you'd stop that, would you also stop foreign aid? It's the same principle, except we get more back from Europe than we're ever likely to see from some of the 3rd world countries we give to........and no, I wouldn't stop that either!
Just my two pennerth. Standing by to be flamed
:Alcazar
14 March 2003, 11:10 AM
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When the bills are paid, someone, somewhere, is taking between 5% and 10% of each and every bill for changing it from £>€>£ etc.
If the Euro is so bad then why has 11 countries signed up for it and one not.Are they all wrong and us right?...
14 March 2003, 11:46 AM
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alcazar
it's too early to judge. ultimately, tax and interest rates will have to be set centrally in order to keep the euro collectively in balance.
that's not rubbish. it's a fact of economic management. and that has substantial long term implications for governmental sovereignty. particularly when you have a disparate set of economies at various stages of strength and cycle.
be good if you could refrain from labelling sound aspects of the anti-euro stance as "hysterical nonsense" - if only out of respect for the valid opinions of others.
it's too early to judge. ultimately, tax and interest rates will have to be set centrally in order to keep the euro collectively in balance.
that's not rubbish. it's a fact of economic management. and that has substantial long term implications for governmental sovereignty. particularly when you have a disparate set of economies at various stages of strength and cycle.
be good if you could refrain from labelling sound aspects of the anti-euro stance as "hysterical nonsense" - if only out of respect for the valid opinions of others.
14 March 2003, 12:35 PM
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Its definately a big plus to have the single currency if you live in mainland Europe as travel across borders is commonplace and it makes it easy. Therefore it takes a whole part of the hassle out, and for those who spout about just using credit cards, do you know that CC firms on average give you a 10% less favourable rate of exchange than the daily bank rate. That is a big overhead when I buy on my UK credit card.
Mortgage rates here are between 3.25 and 4.5% for fixed rate periods from 8-25 years, longer fixed term obviously costing more. I'm sorry to say that transport(rail,a/ports) infrastructure here is much better than in the UK, roads are marginally better but only in Western Germany. The issue with German economy at this time is that interest rates need to be lower to stimulate growth, but they are tied to the EURO rate and so its one tool they have less to work with.
I of course laugh at you guys saying you want the UK government to be in charge of interest rates, sorry thats now owned by the Banks. Possibly you didn't know that the Government handed over responsibility to the Bank of England. Who have in the recent past dismissed Government pressure to adjust interest rates.
As a business, if you do over 40% of your trade with another country then the risks related to exchange rates making you uncompetitive are huge. If you look at the UK as a whole as a business then its current position is risky(from a business viewpoint). Its better as a business to have as much of your costs known(remember they both buy and sell in Europe), if the unknown factor is differential in currency strength then your business is at the will of other factors you do not control. However guessing when to step in and fix that cost going forward is the big decision. As an individual I think Europe and Euro is a good thing. I don't think Britain is ready for it as its still very defensive on the issue and its not always going to be a smooth ride. The biggest risk is going in then first issue that could be blamed on the Euro(think everthing in the Press) the Government pulls itself apart trying to get out again, think Tory Party situation for an example of the damage caused by being constantly split on an issue. Essentially the UK needs more positiveness before it can happen, unfortunately we'd still be using Pounds shillings and Pence is the people got their way. Change, nah its not in our nature.
Regards
Cammy
Mortgage rates here are between 3.25 and 4.5% for fixed rate periods from 8-25 years, longer fixed term obviously costing more. I'm sorry to say that transport(rail,a/ports) infrastructure here is much better than in the UK, roads are marginally better but only in Western Germany. The issue with German economy at this time is that interest rates need to be lower to stimulate growth, but they are tied to the EURO rate and so its one tool they have less to work with.
I of course laugh at you guys saying you want the UK government to be in charge of interest rates, sorry thats now owned by the Banks. Possibly you didn't know that the Government handed over responsibility to the Bank of England. Who have in the recent past dismissed Government pressure to adjust interest rates.
As a business, if you do over 40% of your trade with another country then the risks related to exchange rates making you uncompetitive are huge. If you look at the UK as a whole as a business then its current position is risky(from a business viewpoint). Its better as a business to have as much of your costs known(remember they both buy and sell in Europe), if the unknown factor is differential in currency strength then your business is at the will of other factors you do not control. However guessing when to step in and fix that cost going forward is the big decision. As an individual I think Europe and Euro is a good thing. I don't think Britain is ready for it as its still very defensive on the issue and its not always going to be a smooth ride. The biggest risk is going in then first issue that could be blamed on the Euro(think everthing in the Press) the Government pulls itself apart trying to get out again, think Tory Party situation for an example of the damage caused by being constantly split on an issue. Essentially the UK needs more positiveness before it can happen, unfortunately we'd still be using Pounds shillings and Pence is the people got their way. Change, nah its not in our nature.
Regards
Cammy
14 March 2003, 12:40 PM
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gimme the bank of england over the ECB anyday. plus the government can take back control over interest rates from the BoE at any time. not possible as part of the euro.
change, like progress, isn't always for the better.
change, like progress, isn't always for the better.
14 March 2003, 12:55 PM
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LOL, sure they are just borrowing the responsibility...
, how exactly would that look to business, Government take back control of Interest rates. Fantastic political move. Without change we'd still be living in caves, but hey no tax. 
, how exactly would that look to business, Government take back control of Interest rates. Fantastic political move. Without change we'd still be living in caves, but hey no tax.
14 March 2003, 01:02 PM
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gimme the bank of england over the ECB anyday. plus the government can take back control over interest rates from the BoE at any time. not possible as part of the euro.
14 March 2003, 01:11 PM
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Just answer this question then Tel,or anyone else.
If the Euro is so bad,then why have 11 perfectly sensible countries,who have access to a lot of sensible economic advice,all decided to go ahead with it,and only one country,the UK,has not?
..
14 March 2003, 01:39 PM
#28
Holy Ghost: sorry if you were offended by part of my post. We obviously differ as regards sovereignty. I'm used to arguing with a guy in our local rag who thinks that if we join the Euro, we eventually have to get rid of the Queen and our flag. Regardless of how you feel about the Queen, this IS hysterical nonsense.
You, on the other hand, use Governmental sovereignty, (A term I'm not sure exists as such, but I take your meaning, and won't argue the point), so it's a bit different, I agree.
However, I'm not convinced that our government, being in charge of tax/interest rates, whether they are trying to do the best for Britain alone or not, are doing a good job. Not when I look at the other Europeans, what THEY pay, and what they seem to get for it?
As regards the £ vs the €, the parity rate at present is €1,52 to £1. High street rates are €1.38 to £1. this means that for every £1 we change, we lose €0,14.
Taken as a percentage of the rate, this equates to 9.21%
If we look at the commercial rate, they're getting €1,46, so they lose €0,06, or3.95%
Not much really?
except that it's £9.21 in every £100
or £92.10 in every £1000
Even the commercial rate works out at £3950 for every £100,000 deal.
And who pays???We do!
Alcazar
PS: parity rates from BoE figures
You, on the other hand, use Governmental sovereignty, (A term I'm not sure exists as such, but I take your meaning, and won't argue the point), so it's a bit different, I agree.
However, I'm not convinced that our government, being in charge of tax/interest rates, whether they are trying to do the best for Britain alone or not, are doing a good job. Not when I look at the other Europeans, what THEY pay, and what they seem to get for it?
As regards the £ vs the €, the parity rate at present is €1,52 to £1. High street rates are €1.38 to £1. this means that for every £1 we change, we lose €0,14.
Taken as a percentage of the rate, this equates to 9.21%
If we look at the commercial rate, they're getting €1,46, so they lose €0,06, or3.95%
Not much really?
except that it's £9.21 in every £100
or £92.10 in every £1000
Even the commercial rate works out at £3950 for every £100,000 deal.
And who pays???We do!
Alcazar
PS: parity rates from BoE figures
14 March 2003, 01:41 PM
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Telboy,
AAAHHHH You are right a whole continent has been fooled by Schroeder, is he the Joker in disguise He's a master of deception , its just an evil plan...aaaahhh grip on reality slipiiiiing...Nooooooooooooo
Sorry its Friday and its Blue Sky and Sunny and 16 Degrees outside(another Good day brought to you by the Euro)
AAAHHHH You are right a whole continent has been fooled by Schroeder, is he the Joker in disguise
He's a master of deception , its just an evil plan...aaaahhh grip on reality slipiiiiing...Nooooooooooooo Sorry its Friday and its Blue Sky and Sunny and 16 Degrees outside(another Good day brought to you by the Euro)
