akshay67

What 'principle', 'value' or 'moral' (etc.) in your religion do you follow that non-believer will not follow as part of their general way of life?

yoza

Tho shalt not kill.....

TheScooby

Love thy neighbour

TheScooby

paulr

A friend of mine is a christian and his daughter wouldnt live with her boyfriend until they were married.

And your point is akshay67?

akshay67

I can't understand why (many) religious people think atheists have an absense of morals.

Many people kill in the name of religion...So I don't think that following a religion is less likely to make someone a murderer - in fact it's the opposite!

Neighbours? How about the middle-east muslim/jew situation? What about the hindu/muslim situation in india and pakistan?

Dracoro

I have rather strong morals but am not religious at all (apart from the Church of Dracoro ).

Religions are for social control where the people NEED some form of guidance created by, in nearly all cases, self prophesising(sp?) 'leaders'. Religion is irrational and absurd and VERY inward looking.

Consider the moral judgement made by the individual...I don't steal coz it says so in the bible against (me) who doesn't steal because is is WRONG. I made the moral judgement, not some book.

Oooh, I could go on but I won't.

carl

True, but somebody must have told you what's right and wrong (parents, teachers, etc.) Strictly capatalist principles would lead you to do what's best for yourself all the time. Or maybe you don't steal because you are likely to get caught and punished. In this case, it's the lawmakers telling you what to do rather than the religious leaders. What's the difference?

TelBoy

Many more people would steal, kill etc if they knew they could get away with it. Society would disintegrate into anarchy imo.

Humans might be quite moral, but they are also capable of being extremely irrational and impetuous. But i also agree that religion is not the answer. It's an excuse, in most circumstances.

Dracoro

Because I make my judgements based on what I believe is right/wrong. Not based on whether I get punished or not (this applies to state laws and religious laws) as this is the 'social control' bit I was referring to earlier.

There are laws I agree with and laws I disagree with. They can be 'originally' founded by religions or not and to a large extent is irrelevant where they are sourced but the application is the important factor.
I don't break state laws that I disagree with except in trivial circumstances (have gone over 70 on the motorway the other day!!) but will state whether I agree or not with them. Don't forget that women, for example, wouldn't have got he vote if it wasn't for the suffragettes breaking the odd law or two.

I get influence from my upbringing as we all do but I don't always agree with my parents/teachers etc. In religion you 'have' to agree with everything the bible/koran etc. say and there's no real room to manouvre. As a result of this people 'interpret' them to satisfy their own judgements which makes the actual religion/book irrelevant because you can effectively 'interpret' ANYTHING to mean ANYTHING you want (see all the things done in the name of religion).

This is not a God or creator issue. I don't know whether there's a god or not and TBH I'm not bothered either way, it's relgions and people that cause problems of the world.

akshay67

"I wonder if there are any really intelligent people who are religious? "

In my experience, very few.

As a scientist (a humble one at that!), I often find myself in the company of 'einsteins' and none of them follow religion (because they follow fact and reason etc as opposed to blind faith). None of them are criminals or killers!

Of course you get the stray sheep, like the self-appointed 'scholars' of religion who like to believe (read convince) that religion in fact predicted all science we know today!

carl

So do I, but I recognize that either consciously or subconsciously my entire reasoning and judgement abilities have been subtly influenced during my childhood. So how much of it is your "own" morals and how much is the teachings of society?

For example, it's morally wrong to cheat on your partner. But monogamy is just part of 20th/21st century western society. In the 19th century there was nothing morally wrong with polygamy (which is why rich gentleman usually had so many servants) and in other cultures there's still nothing wrong with it. So if you believe that it's wrong to cheat on your partner, you could say that your own morals have been influenced by the society in which you happen to live. Can you guarantee that they would have been the same if you'd been born into another culture?

Dracoro

Which is why it is good to live in a 'free' thought society that gives us freedom to think for ourselves. Most religios states (all religions) effectively don't allow this and 'brainwash' the subjects of the state with strong full on religous teachings. All regions ultimately want their religion to rule and oversee the whole country/world. No chance of freedom in that kind of world!

Dracoro

Carl, I don't cheat on my girlfriend for my moral reasons and I can explain/justify that. I don't justify it based on what the state/religion/book etc. tells me. If religion, the state, my parents etc. said cheating was OK, I would still disagree and not cheat.

Dracoro

carl, I agree. Similar to the Michael Jackson thing, If we'd have had his life, would we be any less deranged? I really don't know.

carl

But that's because you've been brought up here, and your thought has been subconsciously influenced all the way along.

A few weeks ago, on Clarkson's "meet the neighbours" (hardly a good reference, I know) a French woman was saying that after they've been married for a few years they expect their husbands to have a mistress, because it proves they are still virile and a French man's raison d'etre is to romance women.
No doubt had you been born French (another country of 'free speech') you'd think the same way. To say otherwise is kind of like saying "It's a good job I wasn't born in Spain, because I can't speak Spanish".

Dracoro

I certainly don't think that the 'west' is right in it's moral thinking and society values but I do appreciate the 'freedom' that I have.

In many cases, the non-west have it right as much as they have it wrong (as does the west).

Dracoro

Carl, I agree! hence my Michael Jackson comment.

I think we're sort of agreeing here

TelBoy

National Service.

Dracoro

But which church/religion????? We need a new line of morality that guides the 'unwashed' I'm not sure the current religions are the best way to go (nor is having these 'parents' that have their children growing up as scum). We need to protect the freedom and have stronger media/politicians/musicians/police etc. (these are the 'leaders' that have replaced priests etc. in the west) to deal with the wrongs of society.

carl

I don't know -- I only just thought of the concept. It's up to someone else to fill in the details.

mattstant

Unfortunatley religion is used far more often for the opposite reason.
In the past the church has backed up any monarch who decides to make war (especially when it is against a country with a different religous persuasion) and will declare it is a holy one and both sides will commit any number of atrocities safe in the knowledge that there actions will be rewarded in thier own particular heaven.

I think that nearly all wars and atrocities from the hundred years war to Bosnia (and beyond) have been committed in the name of some religion or other.

matty01

I haven't read all the posts ,but*humble mode on* don't mistake genuine mystical beliefs and attitudes for 'religion' . Some of the most religious people are the ones that don't conform with any Religion(Roman Catholic,CofE,etc..) at all,but feel the universes existance directly from there soul/mind/spirit,and feel a certain wonder, awe,and incredible amount of beauty in the world,this can bring about a sence of holiness to the world and even belief in a higher power, but don't mistake it for religion.....so to answer your post...probably more forgiving,probably more 'in touch with the existance of the universe'which brings its own moral clarity,i guess...*humble mode off*

DrEvil

Good post guys! Interesting read.

matty01

In reply to carl...i thought Einstien was 'religious'in a physics/mathematical wavelength,was he not,..maybe a "religious existentialist" through his detailed examination of the 'order of things', he certainly spent the last few years of his life looking for "god" did he not,(called his unifying theory ,was it?)Sorry ,if a bit sketchy.

carl

IMHO following a set of morals and leading a 'good' life is much mor important than church attendance.

I guess some people need other people to make decisions for them (e.g. "You mustn't do this because it's forbidden", rathter than "It doesn't seem a good idea for me to do this").

I wonder if there are any really intelligent people who are religious? I don't mean like priests and clerics, whom I respect for the religious knowledge they have gained. I mean people who are clever and have excelled in other areas, but are also religious. Americans don't count as they're all a bit odd....

[Edited by carl - 2/10/2003 2:11:54 PM]

carl

But what if you'd been born somewhere that espoused free speech, but whose morals were different from those we perceive as normal in the west?

The society of which you speak is the only one of which you have a large amount of experience. But your attitude smacks of "my way is the right way" because you know no different (no offence intended). It's kind of like the American xenophobia: "other people do things differently from us, therefore they must be wrong"

[Edited by carl - 2/10/2003 3:10:53 PM]

carl

What I'm thinking is that for the great unwashed, maybe religion is a good thing.

For intelligent people such as you and me () we have our morals to guide us, and these have been shaped by our upbringing (teachers, parents, etc.)

It's apparent to me, however, that a large number of parents don't give a f**k -- is it any wonder their kids grow up with no morals? Surely religious guidance (perhaps as part of school, or perhaps compulsory church attendance or something) is ideal for these people? Church attendance has been in decline for decades, and it's pretty clear to me that relying on the parents to keep kids on the straight and narrow has failed pretty miserably.

Thoughts?

Edit: Dracoro -- I know you agree . I think our comments got a bit out of synch.

[Edited by carl - 2/10/2003 3:20:39 PM]

carl

National Service just breeds criminals who are disciplined, good at planning operations, adaptable and used to handling weapons

[Edited by carl - 2/10/2003 3:22:52 PM]