Property Development
04 February 2003, 02:20 PM
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Hi,
I’ve noticed a wealth of knowledge and experience on this site and would like to pick your brains if I may
I’m currently in rented accommodation with a secure job that I don’t particularly like. Basically I’m looking to get into property development by starting at the bottom and working my way up – hence property ladder. With a bit of luck/skill/whatever I hope that it might one day take over as my full time occupation. Ideally I’d like one day to have a nice home to live in and a portfolio of ongoing projects, rented accommodation. I realise the property market has shot up and many people believe that it will die but these things are cyclical and the good times will follow the bad…eventually
My first thoughts were to try and seek out a flat in need of some work and then to move into it and get cracking on. I’m prepared to put personal tastes aside and do some of the hard graft myself. I also have many good contacts through my old man: plumbers, bricky’s, electricians, plasterers, decorators, joiners, etc.
I’d appreciate any help, experience or advice that you may have I’d particularly like to know how you can spot a flat/house that has ‘profit potential’. How do you know that if you get a flat for £50k, spend £10k on it that it’ll be worth £75k when you are finished.
Many thanks in advance
I’ve noticed a wealth of knowledge and experience on this site and would like to pick your brains if I may
I’m currently in rented accommodation with a secure job that I don’t particularly like. Basically I’m looking to get into property development by starting at the bottom and working my way up – hence property ladder. With a bit of luck/skill/whatever I hope that it might one day take over as my full time occupation. Ideally I’d like one day to have a nice home to live in and a portfolio of ongoing projects, rented accommodation. I realise the property market has shot up and many people believe that it will die but these things are cyclical and the good times will follow the bad…eventually
My first thoughts were to try and seek out a flat in need of some work and then to move into it and get cracking on. I’m prepared to put personal tastes aside and do some of the hard graft myself. I also have many good contacts through my old man: plumbers, bricky’s, electricians, plasterers, decorators, joiners, etc.
I’d appreciate any help, experience or advice that you may have
I’d particularly like to know how you can spot a flat/house that has ‘profit potential’. How do you know that if you get a flat for £50k, spend £10k on it that it’ll be worth £75k when you are finished.Many thanks in advance
04 February 2003, 02:31 PM
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How to make money at property development? Well its relatively easy. You research the market and identify how much a specific property type is worth when in good condition. You then look at the same property type in poor condition and see how much it costs, and then calculate the cost of making it good.
So lets say 2 bed flats in your area sell for £100,000 in your area and you find one which needs new plumbing new wiring new kitchen etc you then ascertain that to do the work will cost £20,000. Therefore you mustn't spend more than £80,000 buying it and preferably less.
However you have to look at the dangers of the property market falling!
However I can advise that my godfather started in business 40 years ago refurbishing terraced houses, he then started building semi-detached houses, then detached houses etc. At each stage of climbing the property ladder he was developing houses he wanted to live in so he knew the market. Just before the last property crash he sold his development company for £millions, and then re-entered the market after prices fell again! He has done very well!
Chris
So lets say 2 bed flats in your area sell for £100,000 in your area and you find one which needs new plumbing new wiring new kitchen etc you then ascertain that to do the work will cost £20,000. Therefore you mustn't spend more than £80,000 buying it and preferably less.
However you have to look at the dangers of the property market falling!
However I can advise that my godfather started in business 40 years ago refurbishing terraced houses, he then started building semi-detached houses, then detached houses etc. At each stage of climbing the property ladder he was developing houses he wanted to live in so he knew the market. Just before the last property crash he sold his development company for £millions, and then re-entered the market after prices fell again! He has done very well!
Chris
04 February 2003, 03:34 PM
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Find something that looks bad, but actually isn't ie. old kitchen and repainting are OK, rising damp isn't. Don't buy in a high demand market, do your research to see if the area will improve (low prices due to factory next door, but factory is closing in 2 years etc.)
Student accomodation is a pretty good bet I guess.
You could always buy with minimum borrowing, ie. 1st time buyer mortgage here is ~£700-1000 per month, rents are ~£6-800 for the same property. Your mortgage is, say, ~£500 if you have a big wodge of cash to put into the purchase price; hey presto, ~£1-200 per month for nothing. However, in your situation I guess you don't have much of a cash wodge, otherwise you wouldn't be renting.
Oh, and stick to neutral colours to sell things easier.
Student accomodation is a pretty good bet I guess.
You could always buy with minimum borrowing, ie. 1st time buyer mortgage here is ~£700-1000 per month, rents are ~£6-800 for the same property. Your mortgage is, say, ~£500 if you have a big wodge of cash to put into the purchase price; hey presto, ~£1-200 per month for nothing. However, in your situation I guess you don't have much of a cash wodge, otherwise you wouldn't be renting.
Oh, and stick to neutral colours to sell things easier.
04 February 2003, 04:04 PM
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that property ladder prog is quite good and informative. basically it's all about planning your project to make the money work out and generate profit.
plus the presenter is quite (insert sexist comment of your choice here)
plus the presenter is quite (insert sexist comment of your choice here)
04 February 2003, 04:09 PM
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Sadly the bubble has more or less burst on this one. Bergins are harder to find these days. 
Also take into account - 40% tax on any profits you may make. Don't give up the day job just yet
Also take into account - 40% tax on any profits you may make. Don't give up the day job just yet
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04 February 2003, 04:15 PM
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I've seen property ladder, very interesting programme
I hear what you are saying about the ‘gravy train’ but surely property development is a business that can never die but merely suffer highs and lows. The property market goes up and down but there is always a demand for buildings both new and old. As time goes on buildings wear out so surely it’s a market that can always be operated within? Anyone disagree?
For example: Lets say 10 years ago lots of houses were bought then improved and sold for profit in a given area. Those houses now have now been subjected to 10 years worth of wear and fashion change so potentially will be prime for profiteering. It may be that at certain times the ratio of property developers to developable properties is high but as trends change over the coming years the cycle will repeat creating more opportunity. Remember I'm looking to do this slowly, safely and long term. It would be nice to 'develop property' like a mad man for 2 years, make a mint and get out but its not likely to happen.
By the way, if anyone has hints, tips or downright scams they don't want to broadcast all over the internet you can email as per my profile
Cheers for the advice so far
I hear what you are saying about the ‘gravy train’ but surely property development is a business that can never die but merely suffer highs and lows. The property market goes up and down but there is always a demand for buildings both new and old. As time goes on buildings wear out so surely it’s a market that can always be operated within? Anyone disagree?
For example: Lets say 10 years ago lots of houses were bought then improved and sold for profit in a given area. Those houses now have now been subjected to 10 years worth of wear and fashion change so potentially will be prime for profiteering. It may be that at certain times the ratio of property developers to developable properties is high but as trends change over the coming years the cycle will repeat creating more opportunity. Remember I'm looking to do this slowly, safely and long term. It would be nice to 'develop property' like a mad man for 2 years, make a mint and get out but its not likely to happen.
By the way, if anyone has hints, tips or downright scams
they don't want to broadcast all over the internet you can email as per my profile Cheers for the advice so far
04 February 2003, 04:17 PM
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...knowledge of property development
It always amuses me how the various people featured *always* ignore her advice and end up loosing out. You would think that having a consultant of her experience they would obey her every word, but no - they always think they know best (w@nkers)
It always amuses me how the various people featured *always* ignore her advice and end up loosing out. You would think that having a consultant of her experience they would obey her every word, but no - they always think they know best (w@nkers)
04 February 2003, 04:23 PM
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unclebuck,
Thing is they completely ignore her advice, spend way over budget, usually face some crisis and are about to get made redundant but still manage to make a massive profit.
Usually this is mainly down to the rising housing market, i.e they could have done absolutely nothing to the property and still sold it at a massive profit. Thing you have to remember though is that the next property they are going to develop (assuming that they ever do it again) has also gone up by the same amount.
Like I said earlier I would love to see this program filmed when the housing market isn't massively rising to see just how well they do then!
Thing is they completely ignore her advice, spend way over budget, usually face some crisis and are about to get made redundant but still manage to make a massive profit.
Usually this is mainly down to the rising housing market, i.e they could have done absolutely nothing to the property and still sold it at a massive profit. Thing you have to remember though is that the next property they are going to develop (assuming that they ever do it again) has also gone up by the same amount.
Like I said earlier I would love to see this program filmed when the housing market isn't massively rising to see just how well they do then!
04 February 2003, 04:31 PM
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Some of the people on that show seem to have made a complete **** of it yet still make massive profits and IMHO way more than the market would have risen by in that time 
There seems to be a lot of thumbs down here Has/is anyone successful at this?
There seems to be a lot of thumbs down here Has/is anyone successful at this?
04 February 2003, 04:35 PM
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Don't forget they rig a lot of the figures on that program to make the profits look impressive. Anybody who has ever had any building work done or has even done any DIY themselves knows there is no way they can get the work done for the prices quoted on the program.
I also love the way the property developers forget about Stamp duty, solicitors fees and survey fees and don't take them into consideration when working out how much "profit" they have made.
I also love the way the property developers forget about Stamp duty, solicitors fees and survey fees and don't take them into consideration when working out how much "profit" they have made.
04 February 2003, 04:56 PM
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Very true Joey. Not only stamp duty, solicitors fees etc, but capital gains tax (40% if it takes you over the threshold), tax on rental income, estate agency commissions, interest on home improvement loans or mortgage payments etc etc. Remember that "maintainence" such as a re-roofing is tax deducatble, but "improvements" (extension, conservatory) is NOT.
Not to mention the price you put on your time, the sleepless nights, working EVERY weekend and evening, total loss of social life, girlfriend leaving to **** someone else, early grey hair etc etc.
Not to mention the price you put on your time, the sleepless nights, working EVERY weekend and evening, total loss of social life, girlfriend leaving to **** someone else, early grey hair etc etc.
04 February 2003, 05:12 PM
#16
Olly
Feel free to correct me.
But as Planny is living in the property it will be his place of residence, so there's no tax to pay. Unless he formally gets into the development scene, sets up a company & rents to himself/lives elsewhere etc.
Feel free to correct me.
But as Planny is living in the property it will be his place of residence, so there's no tax to pay. Unless he formally gets into the development scene, sets up a company & rents to himself/lives elsewhere etc.
04 February 2003, 05:29 PM
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Planny,
please bear in mind that everyone is a property developer at the moment. You have no chance of making money (more than market movement). Unless you get in with an estate agent that will feed you properties you are not going to find much. If interest rates rise and people cannot afford the upkeep of their homes there will be alot more stock around in a few years time.
My Tips
Start small.
Dont plan a business venture on good will from friends.
Buy cheap. Get trade accounts with builders merchants.
Dont do it now.
please bear in mind that everyone is a property developer at the moment. You have no chance of making money (more than market movement). Unless you get in with an estate agent that will feed you properties you are not going to find much. If interest rates rise and people cannot afford the upkeep of their homes there will be alot more stock around in a few years time.
My Tips
Start small.
Dont plan a business venture on good will from friends.
Buy cheap. Get trade accounts with builders merchants.
Dont do it now.
04 February 2003, 05:58 PM
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matt
sorry but i disagree.
virtually every show i've seen that has shown a profit has been based almost entirely on the rising market, and not on the skills or good planning of the "developer".
the ones that have made some cash have been very lucky and have often chucked money around without considering how it will affect the outcome.
to me this should be a perfect reason for people not to invest all their hard earned on a project they have little or no experience of. as always it is a tv show and should be considered as entertainment (hopefully) and not as a great idea for a business (otherwise we would all be doing it).
sorry but i disagree.
virtually every show i've seen that has shown a profit has been based almost entirely on the rising market, and not on the skills or good planning of the "developer".
the ones that have made some cash have been very lucky and have often chucked money around without considering how it will affect the outcome.
to me this should be a perfect reason for people not to invest all their hard earned on a project they have little or no experience of. as always it is a tv show and should be considered as entertainment (hopefully) and not as a great idea for a business (otherwise we would all be doing it).
04 February 2003, 06:17 PM
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ffs, keep your shirt on. i have "very carefully" read and reread your post..
my point is that you are saying dont watch the show as it makes it look easy to make money. my point is that it emphasises the fact that people make money due to (and often only due to) the rising market....to me this proves that it is hard to make money if you are a novice when you take the rising market out of the equation ......
all the more reason for sensible people not to take unnecessary risk. as you say if you are a professional developer then inexperienced buyers will only force the market up. which has to be a bad thing....
speculating on anything (property, cars, stocks and shares) has a risk attached...people will make their best judgements when and what risks to take...not based on a tv show....all imho of course
my point is that you are saying dont watch the show as it makes it look easy to make money. my point is that it emphasises the fact that people make money due to (and often only due to) the rising market....to me this proves that it is hard to make money if you are a novice when you take the rising market out of the equation ......
all the more reason for sensible people not to take unnecessary risk. as you say if you are a professional developer then inexperienced buyers will only force the market up. which has to be a bad thing....
speculating on anything (property, cars, stocks and shares) has a risk attached...people will make their best judgements when and what risks to take...not based on a tv show....all imho of course
04 February 2003, 06:50 PM
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neilbbb (keeping my shirt on very calmly)
how does this differ so much from my point
I do genuinley feel for people who i think will be delude despite the weak warnings about rises in the property market and could end up losing alot of money.
I do not think the programme served as an adequate warning and
my concern is not about amateurs forcing up the market.
professionals will come along afterwards and pick up the pieces usually at a bargain price when the bank/building society has dumped it back on the market as cheaply as possible to get their money back
The rise in last years market was due mainly to heavy investment from people taking there money out of the failing stock market and buying to rent.
The property market tends to have a rough ten year cycle of boom to bust and getting your timing right can make you very rich very quick not to say there is not money to be made renovatng in lean times but if you have no practical experience and have to use professionals for every job your profit will vanish very quickly.
its a busines that can be very hard to get a foothold in and can be down to sheer luck at times but once you have a portfolio of properties and a bit of diversity (very serious point this as it saved us in the early 90s during some very lean years)it gets much easier.
how does this differ so much from my point
I do genuinley feel for people who i think will be delude despite the weak warnings about rises in the property market and could end up losing alot of money.
I do not think the programme served as an adequate warning and
my concern is not about amateurs forcing up the market.
professionals will come along afterwards and pick up the pieces usually at a bargain price when the bank/building society has dumped it back on the market as cheaply as possible to get their money back
The rise in last years market was due mainly to heavy investment from people taking there money out of the failing stock market and buying to rent.
The property market tends to have a rough ten year cycle of boom to bust and getting your timing right can make you very rich very quick not to say there is not money to be made renovatng in lean times but if you have no practical experience and have to use professionals for every job your profit will vanish very quickly.
its a busines that can be very hard to get a foothold in and can be down to sheer luck at times but once you have a portfolio of properties and a bit of diversity (very serious point this as it saved us in the early 90s during some very lean years)it gets much easier.
04 February 2003, 07:08 PM
#23
the rise in property is more down to the demand there isnt enough houses for everyone as their have to be another 10,000,000 built in the next 10 years, and all the top house builders in the country only manage 40,000 a year. plus everyone wants to buy a house now no one want to rent so until this trend ends or the mortgages go thru the roof agian property will continue to rise
04 February 2003, 11:47 PM
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I'm seeing a fair bit of negativity here! It surely can't be that bad??
The way I see it - if I start small I minimise the risks. Say I buy a grubby flat in need of decoration, new electrical fittings, new kitchen, scrubbed up bathroom, etc. I then get it whipped into shape, cleaned up, freshened up, decorated and then back on the market, surely there is scope for a little profit to be made that can be put into my next project. I honestly have a contact for every trade and could get good prices for most work. Furthermore, my uncle owns a building company that can do extensions, conservatories and so on for when I get higher up the ladder.
Even if I did the flat up and the value didn't improve it isn't a loss as I'd have a nice place to stay
Two things ring loud in my mind:
1. People can be lazy
2. Property is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
For this reason, can it not be said that if you take a cheap but grotty property whip it into shape in as cost effective a manner as possible and then sell it that real profit can be made. There is bound to be someone that is looking for a nice, clean flat or home to move straight into and not have to worry about decoration in the short term. Such a person may be willing to pay good money for a nicely decorated, fresh and well presented property.
Think how hard it would be to sell an old car with faded paint and kerbed trims. How much easier and better a price would you get if you spent a weekend t-cutting, waxing, hoovering, and replaced the old trims, etc.
It surely can't be that bad??The way I see it - if I start small I minimise the risks. Say I buy a grubby flat in need of decoration, new electrical fittings, new kitchen, scrubbed up bathroom, etc. I then get it whipped into shape, cleaned up, freshened up, decorated and then back on the market, surely there is scope for a little profit to be made that can be put into my next project. I honestly have a contact for every trade and could get good prices for most work. Furthermore, my uncle owns a building company that can do extensions, conservatories and so on for when I get higher up the ladder.
Even if I did the flat up and the value didn't improve it isn't a loss as I'd have a nice place to stay
Two things ring loud in my mind:
1. People can be lazy
2. Property is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
For this reason, can it not be said that if you take a cheap but grotty property whip it into shape in as cost effective a manner as possible and then sell it that real profit can be made. There is bound to be someone that is looking for a nice, clean flat or home to move straight into and not have to worry about decoration in the short term. Such a person may be willing to pay good money for a nicely decorated, fresh and well presented property.
Think how hard it would be to sell an old car with faded paint and kerbed trims. How much easier and better a price would you get if you spent a weekend t-cutting, waxing, hoovering, and replaced the old trims, etc.
05 February 2003, 08:20 AM
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Planny,
what will you do in a falling market?
are your mates going to turn down good paying work in a rising market to carry out major works for you at mates rates?
As I said before, do not ever plan a business venture on friend's goodwill ever. Get some big brown envelopes and start cultivating estate agents! Do not buy at auction as everyone is at the moment and this is pushing prices up. You are looking for a profit margin, those buying to live in are not and will pay more. Also anticipate a 10% drop in prices into your margins. If it still makes sense then go for it.
Rich
what will you do in a falling market?
are your mates going to turn down good paying work in a rising market to carry out major works for you at mates rates?
As I said before, do not ever plan a business venture on friend's goodwill ever. Get some big brown envelopes and start cultivating estate agents! Do not buy at auction as everyone is at the moment and this is pushing prices up. You are looking for a profit margin, those buying to live in are not and will pay more. Also anticipate a 10% drop in prices into your margins. If it still makes sense then go for it.
Rich
05 February 2003, 09:46 AM
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no its not all bad planny just that it can be very risky and i wouldnt want anyone going in without there eyes wide open.
Neilbb no probs just misunderstanding on both parts i think
Yes youre right planny people are lazy.
a good start would be to look in your own area for neglected/empty properties and cold call on the owners.
local knowledge is very important so starting in your own back yard is always a good idea
Bypassing estate agents can be quite cost effective sometimes
and although property values may stagnate or even drop (in over inflated areas) there is still high demand for all types of property due to a criminally slow planning procedure.
STEVEBT is correct high demand and low interest might just keep things bouyant this year
Good luck Planny it seems as though you have your head screwed on the right way to start with
Neilbb no probs just misunderstanding on both parts i think
Yes youre right planny people are lazy.
a good start would be to look in your own area for neglected/empty properties and cold call on the owners.
local knowledge is very important so starting in your own back yard is always a good idea
Bypassing estate agents can be quite cost effective sometimes
and although property values may stagnate or even drop (in over inflated areas) there is still high demand for all types of property due to a criminally slow planning procedure.
STEVEBT is correct high demand and low interest might just keep things bouyant this year
Good luck Planny it seems as though you have your head screwed on the right way to start with
05 February 2003, 10:13 AM
#28
Unless you can do bits of everything plumbing electrical joinery etc you wont make profit .friends will let you down and only come when they want .you can do up a decent flat but what sells flats are decent neighbours etc look to semis or cheap detached properties in the country and you wont upset the neighbours with building work etc
Also money talks but unless you have a <hugh wad> of it , it will eat into your profits if you have to borrow money
My advice from my experience Night school learn the basic DIY skill first then purhase a house get a woman /partner as they are a good source of cheap labour
Do the majority of the work yourself
I have made 100k on my last house in 3 years but i had to sacrifice every weekend &hollidays to do it and spend 40k so 20k for 3 years isnt that good but i enjoyed doing it as it keeps me out of the pub
Good luck but tread carefully
Also money talks but unless you have a <hugh wad> of it , it will eat into your profits if you have to borrow money
My advice from my experience Night school learn the basic DIY skill first then purhase a house get a woman /partner as they are a good source of cheap labour
Do the majority of the work yourself
I have made 100k on my last house in 3 years but i had to sacrifice every weekend &hollidays to do it and spend 40k so 20k for 3 years isnt that good but i enjoyed doing it as it keeps me out of the pub
Good luck but tread carefully
05 February 2003, 10:33 AM
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I own an independent estate agency so i'll offer my pennies worth!
Your biggest problem will be finding the right property in the first place as many agents will make sure that the good stuff goes to tame investors etc. Many will (despite the legality of it)take bungs from them to ensure an ongoing supply of decent investments.
Another problem will be that estate agents have heard it all before - "when the markets like this, EVERYONE'S an investor" is an often repeated mantra. We get loads of people in who would love to be big-shot investors, then pull out of the purchase because the surveyor tells them it needs a rewire - so we have to treat first time investors very cynically - for the good of the fee-paying client.
Good luck with the project, but start small, don't invest what you can't afford to loose, and assume everything will cost twice as much as you calculate. Pray the market will continue rising and avoid doing ANYTHINGthe @rseholes on "Changing rooms" et al advise!
Russ
Your biggest problem will be finding the right property in the first place as many agents will make sure that the good stuff goes to tame investors etc. Many will (despite the legality of it)take bungs from them to ensure an ongoing supply of decent investments.
Another problem will be that estate agents have heard it all before - "when the markets like this, EVERYONE'S an investor" is an often repeated mantra. We get loads of people in who would love to be big-shot investors, then pull out of the purchase because the surveyor tells them it needs a rewire - so we have to treat first time investors very cynically - for the good of the fee-paying client.
Good luck with the project, but start small, don't invest what you can't afford to loose, and assume everything will cost twice as much as you calculate. Pray the market will continue rising and avoid doing ANYTHINGthe @rseholes on "Changing rooms" et al advise!
Russ
05 February 2003, 11:57 AM
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whats youre opinion on prospects this year Russ ???
I think we are still catching up in derby.
Interesting that the halifax have said that the market is still rising (for what thats worth) this morning something like 9%
I think we are still catching up in derby.
Interesting that the halifax have said that the market is still rising (for what thats worth) this morning something like 9%