Jye_0

To everyone who thinks this government is doing a fine job. Not content with sending brave men and women to fight a war which cannot be won, they are sending them with patched up boots and scabby old uniforms. Yer, from the finest fighting force in the world to a laughing stock.

Ben P

Where did you get the idea that this war cannot be won? The Iraqi army cannot even read let alone shoot straight.

carl

They should think themselves lucky that the boots don't melt

dsmith

Spent sunday evening searching the web for good prices on personal GPS units for a mate whos expecting to go. he fixes Helicopters - so they tend to be busy in the desert - and he doesnt trust his ability to read a map in the middle of a desert to find any that have to put down in a hurry.

I was gobsmacked they dont get issued them if there's a need

Deano

carl

I'm even more gobsmacked that they're sending people who can't read maps

Badger Stuffer

I heard that they were issuing all soldiers a sheet of sandpaper as a map of the desert.



[Edited by Badger Stuffer - 1/21/2003 5:24:56 PM]

merkin

better get them a geodessy as well, wouldn't be surprised if there were fecking gatso's there too

Jerome

carl,

If you'd seen some of the maps of Iraq, you'd know why a GPS is rather useful. I've seen maps of Iraq that are basically a sheet of yellow paper with little squiggles to denotes sand dunes. There are often no features whatsoever.

Some people do get issued GPS's, but if I was going, I would rather have my own than rely of getting an issue one, which can be taken back at any time.

carl

I'm sure I couldn't navigate in the desert in Iraq, but then I haven't had the army training. Surely they should either:
a) issue them with GPS
b) train them to map read and recognize features in Iraq
It's not like they haven't had time to prepare (b) is it?

BTW I saw a programme about the 1991 Gulf War the other day. Because the desert is so featureless, they worried that the Tomahawks would have trouble navigating. So they programmed them to fly over the mountains of Iran without asking Iran's permission, and hoped that none of them crashed on the way

Jerome

carl,

They do teach all soldiers to read maps. However, even experienced people make mistakes, especially when stressed and/or tired. However, the ramifications of relying on your own map reading & navigation skills and getting it wrong are rather more serious if the Gulf than on Salisbury plain.

I agree they should issue more GPS's, but the military spec ones are a lot more expensive than civilian ones. The army can't afford to issue everyone with decent boots, let alone thousands of pounds worth of GPS kit each. The military GPS's aren't that user friendly either. There are lots of grid systems to choose from for instance. Also, it's typically a week long course for training a GPS user in the Army. There just aren't enough GPS instructors to train 25,000 troops in the time given.

Jye_0

Ben, your naivety defies belief. I’m not just talking about ‘a’ war against one nation, i.e. Iraq, this is supposedly a war against terrorism and attacking Iraq now deffo wont be like the last time matey. It will be a case of either carpet bombing Baghdad or getting involved in a very bloody hand to hand conflict within the cities in which innocent civilians and UK/American infantry will certainly die with massive casualties. Grow up please.

Popeye P1

Again if our own government can't even give our troops the proper equipment in battle then what hope is there? Let me guess most of the money meant for the troops was spent on re-housing 50,000 Kurds???

steve G MAN

lmho carl its not like they dont have time to prepare is it i agree 100% ill let the guys know at the fire station to get some practice in while there on shift for the lazy fire fighters
ps carl you dont know what your talking about have you been in the desert

Ben P

Well it would be our own fault for not using the racial profiling tactics that has been used successfully in the USA. They have even gone a step further by having mandatory registeration on all muslims there and have managed to deport all potential terrorists.

I am sure that your liberal heart is bleeding because of this fact.

Jye_0

I see SteveGMan has brought the usual drivel into the post, sigh...

Jye_0

Ben, I’m far from Liberal, but then what would a 12 year old know about the problems and politics of this world. Stop eating those E numbers in coco-pops and smarties son; it makes you spout utter ****e. I certainly don’t see what your irrelevant comments have to do with our troop’s ability to fight a war. Count to 10 before opening your mouth and letting your belly rumble.

beemerboy

erm dont they use satellite triangulation for this, surely they dont even need to look at the ground, its all co-ordinates innit??

BB

Luke

"Where did you get the idea that this war cannot be won? The Iraqi army cannot even read let alone shoot straight"


You think so????

steve G MAN

what would a 12 year old know about the problems and politics of this world. Stop eating those E numbers in coco-pops and smarties son; it makes you spout utter ****e. I certainly don’t see what your irrelevant comments have to do with our troop’s ability to fight a war. Count to 10 before opening your mouth and letting your belly rumble.
jye-o usual drivel you say

Jye_0

steve G MAN

yawn, pure pish foEl, zzzzzzzzz

carl

Why? The only difference as far as I can see is ruggedization (is that a word?), since they turned the SA off. Unless they're thinking of turning the SA back on during the conflict.

And no, I haven't been in the desert. But let's face it, the next place a war was going to come from was somewhere in the middle east, so surely someone should have been making preparations. We did used to have wars in deserts before GPS was invented, you know

steve G MAN

oo and by the way jye-o were not a laughing stock. the british army has aways had shlt kit but we do the job no matter what and do it well as pure usual

Jerome

>Why? The only difference as far as I can see is ruggedization (is that a word?), since they turned the SA off. Unless they're thinking of turning the SA back on during the conflict.

Ruggedisation goes beyond the norm when it comes to squaddies. To be squaddie-proof goes further than the usual stuff (being shock/water/grit proof). A squaddie is capable of breaking the most sturdy piece of kit in training, let alone war! It also has military spec accuracy capability (SA) and a host of other features.


>And no, I haven't been in the desert. But let's face it, the next place a war was going to come from was somewhere in the middle east, so surely someone should have been making preparations. We did used to have wars in deserts before GPS was invented, you know

I agree entirely. We did fight in the desert a bit(!) during WWII so we should be better at desert conflict. Unfortunately there has been a criminal neglect amongst both top brass and the government in several areas inrecent years:-

- Issue kit is simply not up to scratch

- Desert filters for Challenger tanks have not been ordered

- The SA80 rifle is crap in sandy conditions (lets hope the recent upgrade actually works!)

- Nuclear Biological Chemical (NBC) Warfare training has been neglected. Considering Saddam has already used chemical weapons on his own people (Kurds), this is simply unacceptable. At least the British Army have the best NBC kit avaliable - better even than the US kit!

- Friendly fire prevention. Nothing has been done to prevent a repeat of US A10 tank busters attacking UK armoured vehicles. Even as recently as the war in Afghanistan, a "Top Gun" US pilot killed some Canadian soldiers. Oh dear.

- Overstretching. The Army is struggling to perform it's normal tasks without the firemans strike, let alone sending a quarter of it's manpower to the gulf.

Also, I suspect Saddam's troops will be better prepared than last time and will not be the pushover everybody seems to expect.

Not a good picture all round really.

[Edited by Jerome - 1/21/2003 9:56:22 PM]

P130J

Military GPS units are indeed ruggedised. They also have various other features that your bog standard Garmin doesn't such as anti-jamming and anti-spoofing. They run "P code" that is more accurate than the standard code that civilian users get. P code data is classified and has to be uploaded to the unit regularly hence the unit must have this facility. This (plus the fact that any military contractor will double his prices just because it's for the military and he can) makes the units a lot more expensive than a civilian one.

Tomahawk LAMs do use GPS for positioning however they also also terrain mapping to update and confirm their GPS position. They have maps uploaded in them that they compare against the ground they are flying over. Barren, featureless desert isn't so good for that

The army does train their people to use maps and they do it well. The desert is an extremely difficult place to navigate even for the best Vasco De Garma let alone the poor squaddie with his map and compass. Yes he could do it but it would be slow and painful. The individual described on page 1 doesn't need to be fannying about with a compass when he's in a hurry to reach a downed or u/s helicopter; he wants a GPS so that he can do his job better. If it means him buying one to be certain he'll have that facility then good luck to him.
Servicemen have always bought their own kit - either because the military won't give it to him or because they can't. Sadly it's usually the former.

Jerome

P130J,

Well said. Especially the technimical gubbins about the GPS.

Luke

"Push over"..... Anyone thinking the Iraqis will be easy meat are kidding themselves.

Jye_0

--oo and by the way jye-o were not a laughing stock. the british army has aways had shlt kit but we do the job no matter what and do it well as pure usual---


We do the job? Is that the Royal we or just you and your pathetic views we? BTW while your being so sentimentally patriotic, its British with a capital B; our lads deserve at least that if you won’t put boots on their feet.

Right lads, tally ho and over the top in yer slippers, said smug Captain Major ‘steve G MAN’ with his shiny new boots, yeah, and I want to be in your version of the army, not.

As long as folk like you think its ok to go to war in a pair of lashed up parra’s while still gettin the job done then that’s ok is it? Wake up and smell the coffee you complete plank.

By the way, your not servicing my motor with yer ****ty chocolate spanners m8tey.

steve G MAN

jye-o how many years service have you seen probably **** all sit behind your desk and shut up talkin rubish you old fool.i can say what i want about our lads and i think thats a fair point as im one of them and dont belive everything you read in the papers there is enough desert cams to go round or are we going in cbt 95 greens i know what why dont you go read the paper in the morning and let me know mmm on second thoughts dont bother ive still got my desert kit from afganistan.
ps if you have a great problem with what ive said why not drop me an e mail and ill give you my adress your more than welcome to pop round for a cup of tea.

dsmith

Jye - You seem to send threads downhill faster than any other troll who's ever found their way here. I guess thats an honour of sorts. So now you've gained it why dont you P*ss off ?

Thanks for the comments above P130J. Couldn't agree more. I'm a "competant" map reader when trekking around the lake district. Occasionally I take a littler longer to get my bearings some times. have to faff around take a few bearings etc. I've been walking with my Mate and he doesnt even have to try in that situation. Now I can only go on a) what I've seen on TV and b) what hes told me - but there doesn't look like there's a whole heap of recognisable features with footpaths on an OS quality map for him to follow if he has to p*ss of into the desert to fix a helicopter.

Because he actually wants to do his job with as few problems as possible - even in the **** end of nowhere - he's prepared to fork out a few hundred quid. And he doesn't just get to stick it on expenses or put in a few spuriuous mileage claims to get it back . Hes also buying his own lightweight kit - so that he can get as much as possible in his meagre luggage allowance while he spends an indeterminate length of time away from his wife and 6 month old daughter.

I'll stop now before I really wind myself up.

Deano

unclebuck

steve G Man is one of the good guys - lay off him [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]