marty_t3

They admitted that they couldn't say what speed you were doing so they obviously dont have it on camera (or they would have shown it to you) or given you a fixed penalty. Sound's like you've got of lightly with a hort1.

edited for this bit.....

Did they read you your rights? If they didn't then it's not likely that they'll charge you.

[Edited by marty_t3 - 11/8/2002 7:49:08 PM]

EVOLUTION

It is in 90% of cases though.

I take it from your last post that you may have a little inside info on that. Well im not going to argue about the extra 10%, (will probably loose) but i do know that they need some sort of calibrated system to lay a speeding offence on you.

2 policemen in a mondeo who both say "well we were driving 70+ to try and catch you and it took a while" and cant prove the exact speed of the vehicle in question, aint going to stand up in any court.

I do not include charges such as dangerous driving etc as im not sure on the law about that one (though im sure you are). For SP 30's and SP60's im sure They need to prove your speed.

Im sure you will correct me if im wrong

John



[Edited by EVOLUTION - 11/10/2002 12:27:48 AM]

Scoobs_4ever

Just been seeking some legal advice from some friends who are solicitors.

Basically, the absence of a NIP doesn't mean I'm free. All it means is that there is now possible scope in the law to prove that no NIP verbal or written has been produced, hence no charge. Apparently tho, a NIP can be served up to 14-days after the offence occured.

Due to the speeds involved and the number of points on my licence (i.e. no points) it is unlikey I will get banned but it depends on how the court sees it on the day.

Most likely outcome is 4 to 5 points on the licence and a 200 to 400 quid fine.

[Edited by Scoobs_4ever - 11/10/2002 5:24:55 PM]

EVOLUTION

As far as speeding, as long as the speedo is calibrated (or done directly afterwards over a measured distance) then it can be done. Please believe me, I know.

What a load of rubbish, you cant calibrate the system after the event. Otherwise why bother at all?

Now if you realy are a policeman, you should at least know that. And as for NIPs, if there was no accident or CRIMINAL offence commited, then he has to recieve the NIP in writing within 14 days of the incident

Just what is it they say you have done here, for speeding, they will MOST LIKLEY send you a fixed penalty, 3 points and £60 fine.

John


[Edited by EVOLUTION - 11/10/2002 5:30:13 PM]

EVOLUTION

BuRR, sorry but im going to say i dont believe you about the calibration. If that realy was the case, them it is highly unusual,

Turbokitty, and as for a policemans word against yours, of course they going to believe the copper. ~But there is no way on earth they can lay a speeding offence on you. They have to prove what speed you were doing. The offence which you can be done for however id reckless driving, which is something different altogether.

Was he holding a radar gun by any chance, because if not, from the info you gave in your post, i dont believe this either, there must be more to it than that.

John



[Edited by EVOLUTION - 11/13/2002 1:11:05 AM]

EVOLUTION

The idea was to provide scoobs_4ever with some possible help, not to have a row with you. Its your jod so you should know the law.

John

[Edited by EVOLUTION - 11/13/2002 1:12:10 AM]

Scoobs_4ever

Got caught on a small section of the A607 outside Melton Mowbray where there's a 400m section of a 40mph limit in Kirkby Bellars.

I've been given a HO/RT 1 cos the police said they couldn't give a fixed fine as they didn't know what speed I was doing. They knew it was above 40 mph said he was doing 70mph and wasn't catching me that fast.

There was no way I was going that fast - no more than 60mph.

At this point several thoughts rushed through my head and I felt like saying you were doing 70mph in a 40mph - well thats bloody dangerous. But luckily as it was 5:15am I was too tired to open my mouth.

What confused me more was that he stopped me 2-miles later when I was doing 60mph in a 60mph!!

I've now got to produce my documents at the local police station.

Whats gonna happen now. Should I expect a court summons or is it gonna be bye bye licence for a bit?

cheers
Andy.

flat4

i'm no expert on these matter (touches wood ) but i think that's a normal producer, i.e. they look at it and give you it back just to check your insured, mot'd etc.

nothing to worry about...i think


kev

Scoobs_4ever

They cautioned me with the normal what ever you say , taken down as evidence kinda thing, but apart from that not much.

The only other warning he said was "for god sake don't get caught speeding again in the next few weeks".

BuRR

Take the producer and thank god they didn't get you with Vascar

Nothing to worry about, assuming you have insurance, a licence and MoT

Scoobs_4ever

Dont get me wrong, I'm not pleased with what I've done but I do feel a bit better.

We'll see tomorrow after I've popped into my local police station.

Andy.

polarbearit

Did they tick the 'offence' box on the producer?

Scoobs_4ever

yep

BuRR

When I used to be on patrol, we ticked "offence" on the producer as a matter of course. We found that if we only checked "check" or "other" then the civilian on the counter just glanced at the cover note / MOT / Insurance certificate, and as a result loads of photocopies were being missed .

By ticking the offence box, the details of the documents had to be recorded in the HO/RT2 book by the counter clerk, which enabled us to do our own telephone enquiries with the appropriate insurance companies.

If in doubt, either give the bobby a ring, or ask if they're available to chat to when you produce. They should be able to tell you what the score is.

At the end of the day, the HO/RT1 is a statutory defence for not being able to produce your documents there and then for the police officer. The boxes are not the be-all-and-end-all that everyone thinks.

Any problems, then email me off board (as per profile )

EVOLUTION

To get you for speeding, i think im right in thinking that they have to prove exactly what speed you were doing. Not what you were roughly doing, and to do this as you know, they need the the radar, vascar or whatever systems they have to do this.

Like everyone says, you should be OK

John

BuRR

That's not necessarily the case.

Scoobs_4ever

Well,

took in all my documents as per the HO/RT 1 and was told I should expect a response with the next 4-6 weeks. This response could be no further action but the police officer said more than likely to be a court summons.

It leaves me no option but to get some independantlegal advice now on ho wbest to prepare for all eventualities.

Interesting points though, no record of my speed, I didn't admit to speeding but it will their word against mine plus what ever evidence they have.

A ban would be a serious bugger for me as I work irregular hours so I need my car to get to and from work. Points would be okay as I haven't got any and a fine would be v.painful.

I'll keep this thread updated as and when Iget more info.

Andy.

EVOLUTION

Have they served you with a NOTICE OF INTENDED PROSICUTION


http://www.theaa.com/allaboutcars/legal/general_advice.html

check out this, im not sure how to post a link

BuRR

Verbal NIP would have sufficed.

As far as speeding, as long as the speedo is calibrated (or done directly afterwards over a measured distance) then it can be done. Please believe me, I know.

BuRR

btw - the offence wording is "exceed speed limit" - which is all you have to prove tbh.

Scoobs_4ever

I can't recall at the time the police officer verbally saying I WOULD be prosecuted, as really its not his decision - my guess. He said in his opinion I COULD be.

The question I have, is should I be requesting the calibration certificate for his speedo? To me, it sounds like I'm being a gimp but if it means I can minimise the penalty I'm facing then it maybe worth doing. I'll see what the legal advice is first.

Andy.

BuRR

I'd try and contact him as to where you stand at the moment. He should let you know what's happening.

TurboKitty

One of the members of this board has been successfully prosecuted for speeding based on the word of a police officer who was on foot at the time. It went to court, and the policeman stated that in his opinion the driver was exceeding the posted speed limit. The driver was found guilty. Now, tell me where a need for any sort of calibration comes in to that? If it's the word of the police against the word of a driver, the chances are that the driver is stuffed.

Scoobs_4ever

John,

That confused me too. How can you calibrate a device after the event? That's like planting evidence at the scene of a crime?

Does it mean that if during calibration the unit was okay, i.e. within prescribed limits, then during the offence it was okay?

Furthermore, as the police car was always closing on me, how can he prove what speed I was doing? Only I know how fast I was going, the police car can only estimate.

In addition, I often wonder why a police car can admit to doing 70mph, when I'm considered a criminal for doing a lower speed. A police car at 70mph is just as dangerous. If someone or something had pulled out in front of him, he wouldn't have been able to stop in time. If I was that dangerous at the time, why didn't he put his blues on and stop me there and then, whay wait 5-mins later and 2-miles further down the road.

V.confusing.

Scoobs_4ever

Turbokitty,

Not a problem with being convicted on the correct evidence. My issue is the level of fine and punishment will be based on the assumed speed I was going. There is a sliding scale of points and fines e.g. 55mph in a 40mph is 4 points and max £300 fine whereas 60mph in a 40mph is 5 points and a max £400 fine, for example

Can you honestly say you that you can guess speed the speed of a vehicle to such accuracy when 5mph makes such a big difference???

BuRR

Evolution.... I have succesfully prosecuted someone at Magistrates court after following them in an Astra patrol car (no Vascar or calibrated speedo fitted) - I drove a measured mile immediately after the offence with a traffic car measuring my speed. This evidence was included in my prosecution file.

As for NIP's - I stand with what I said. Verbal NIP's carry as much clout as a written one. Now do you want me to start telling you how to do your job?

SiDHEaD

Unless its on video how can they possibly prove how fast you were going. It obviously took them a long time to catch up cos they were so far behind you , not due to speed.

And I agree about the blue lights. They should be done for speeding too. They were not attempting to stop you, therefore by all this government speed kills crap "they were driving at excessive speed".

You need a lawyer that can do some nice sums regarding the distance between you and them and how long it took them to catch u at 70, to work out your speed and then lower it a bit.

And the police wonder why motorists hate them when they are blatently going on no facts of what speed you were going. The really concerning thing is if they dont like the look of you and you are ACTUALLY doing 40 you're stuffed.

Scoobs_4ever

Burr,

This is realm where individual cases are different.

The 40mph zone I was in only lasts 400yrds after which a 60mph restriction re-starts. Prior to the 40mph zone, it is a 60mph zone.

So to do a time and measured 1 mile, distance it would include over 1000yrds of 60mph.

SiDHEaD

thats rediculous then! They travelled at over the speed limit without blues on endangering lives, when they were not doing a speed check or anything (faster than you) across 2 zones. Surely there is some defence that you were doing 45 in the 40 then accelerated up as u went over the line to 60 again. This coupled with the fact they were coming up from a way away and not checking speed as they were too fast.

I still cannot see how they can justify no blues + speeding when not speedchecking. Madness!

BuRR

I appreciate that. My point is @ Evolution who is stating that I'm wrong in what can and cannot be done....

I've tried to offer constructive advice based on my knowledge and experience, not on items and (mis?)information read on various websites.

At the end of the day, I have said on numerous occasions..... speak to the officer in the case. Ask them what will happen in this case. Once you find out, come back to us and then we can decide your best cause of action.

For all you know, nothing else could come of this, except the production of your documents. No point being hung, drawn and quartered when that might not even be in the pipeline.

btw... if people don't want my opinion, then please let me know and I'll not post in these matters.