THE DEATH PENALTY
17 August 2002, 06:45 PM
#1
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how many of you would support the death penalty in a referendem in the light of the recent news???
i for one would fully support it for the murder of children.
i for one would fully support it for the murder of children.
17 August 2002, 06:58 PM
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Wondered when this would pop up.
I for one would rather these scum who murder children or anyone for that matter be left to rot in a cell for the rest of their natural life, without any chance of release regardless of their 'rehabilitation'. By killing them you're instantly snubbing them out and not making them pay. Yes, their life has gone but they won't be made to suffer for years.
Plus, killing them lowers the society that does it to their level.
Then, where do draw the line? Does a person who 'accidentally' kills a child be given the same penalty as a child rapist/murderer? What defines a child? Why is the murder of a child worse than the murder of an adult? What if a child murders a child?
All questions I couldn't start to answer.
I for one would rather these scum who murder children or anyone for that matter be left to rot in a cell for the rest of their natural life, without any chance of release regardless of their 'rehabilitation'. By killing them you're instantly snubbing them out and not making them pay. Yes, their life has gone but they won't be made to suffer for years.
Plus, killing them lowers the society that does it to their level.
Then, where do draw the line? Does a person who 'accidentally' kills a child be given the same penalty as a child rapist/murderer? What defines a child? Why is the murder of a child worse than the murder of an adult? What if a child murders a child?
All questions I couldn't start to answer.
17 August 2002, 07:05 PM
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No, no death penalty, for the aforementioned reason (ok, maybe a little deeper 
): if you kill someone, you dont know what happens to him except he's gone. Is there such a thing as heaven or hell? We do not know. And therefore have no way of telling if killing someone would actually be a punishment (except for those 30 seconds where he is being killed). When we all know that a life spent in a cell, quite frankly, sucks major dick 
The problem is that they always let criminals out when they say they wont (but then again, they spend more money on radar equipment than on prison building...)
): if you kill someone, you dont know what happens to him except he's gone. Is there such a thing as heaven or hell? We do not know. And therefore have no way of telling if killing someone would actually be a punishment (except for those 30 seconds where he is being killed). When we all know that a life spent in a cell, quite frankly, sucks major dick The problem is that they always let criminals out when they say they wont (but then again, they spend more money on radar equipment than on prison building...)
17 August 2002, 07:13 PM
#4
crikey, i agree with claudius.
No to the death penalty for three reasons in the main.
1) There have been hundreds of miscariages of justice where murderers have later been found inocent. Some have spent decades in prison before being relased as incorectly convicted. If they were put to death they would have been murdered by the state. If that was your or a loved one you would change your views i think! 2) You would find juries less likely to convict in cases giving the death penalty, as the concequencies of getting it wrong are so major it is more likely that murderers will be back on the streets.
3) it does not work as a deterant.
No to the death penalty for three reasons in the main.
1) There have been hundreds of miscariages of justice where murderers have later been found inocent. Some have spent decades in prison before being relased as incorectly convicted. If they were put to death they would have been murdered by the state. If that was your or a loved one you would change your views i think! 2) You would find juries less likely to convict in cases giving the death penalty, as the concequencies of getting it wrong are so major it is more likely that murderers will be back on the streets.
3) it does not work as a deterant.
17 August 2002, 07:32 PM
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When there is conclusive DNA evidence, I for one would support the death penalty for 'people' who murder children (under 18).
Only however if there was absolutely no doubt about the murderer.
Only however if there was absolutely no doubt about the murderer.
17 August 2002, 07:37 PM
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There is no point in debating this issue. We cannot have the death penalty in the UK anymore, no referendum will change that. Tony Blair has signed an EU agreement, the social charter I think, which prohibits the UK ever re-introducing the Death penalty. No way around it so jumping on a soap box will do no good i'm afraid.
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17 August 2002, 07:46 PM
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I have this discussion with dad quite regularly and the main point that we always fall back on is that there is no 100% way to prove that someone is guilty.
A) Someone admits guilt. Some can be pressurised into confessing, some arent mentally stable etc.
B) Evidence. Evidence can be faked, planted etc. Its happened before and will happen again.
A) Someone admits guilt. Some can be pressurised into confessing, some arent mentally stable etc.
B) Evidence. Evidence can be faked, planted etc. Its happened before and will happen again.
17 August 2002, 07:56 PM
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If they did do it I don't see them lasting long in jail unless they are completely segregated (which will probably happen to keep THEM safe).
Throw them in with the cons who'll keep them alive but make them pay!
Throw them in with the cons who'll keep them alive but make them pay!
17 August 2002, 08:04 PM
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Actually I'm not sure we need it for murdering nonces. Just bang 'em and thier fellow inmates will 'look after' them
Remember how cheated everyone felt when Fred West topped himself?
Also in that programme on kiddy fiddlers a few weeks back, that bloke they caught also topped himself, because he *knew* what was coming to him in prison (as I'm sure did West).
What the Police need to make sure of is that these latest creeps aren't able to escape justice by suicide - that would be a crime [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]
Remember how cheated everyone felt when Fred West topped himself?
Also in that programme on kiddy fiddlers a few weeks back, that bloke they caught also topped himself, because he *knew* what was coming to him in prison (as I'm sure did West).
What the Police need to make sure of is that these latest creeps aren't able to escape justice by suicide - that would be a crime [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]
17 August 2002, 08:47 PM
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Everyone has the right to their point of view.
I was going to give lots of reasons for killing scum who perpetrate crimes that are against everything society stands for.
Realised it is pointless as I had no strong feelings about it until something happened to someone I knew well. Since then I would snuff out their lives the way that they did to others.
If you have been close to someone that has suffered & died at the hands of these people you would know what I mean. I hope you never do know but if you do, you will see where I am coming from. They are a waste of life and as such perform no reasonable or useful function.
IMO
Alas
I was going to give lots of reasons for killing scum who perpetrate crimes that are against everything society stands for.
Realised it is pointless as I had no strong feelings about it until something happened to someone I knew well. Since then I would snuff out their lives the way that they did to others.
If you have been close to someone that has suffered & died at the hands of these people you would know what I mean. I hope you never do know but if you do, you will see where I am coming from. They are a waste of life and as such perform no reasonable or useful function.
IMO
Alas
17 August 2002, 10:03 PM
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PERSONALLY
Im not sure about the Death Sentance when I think about it. Surely its an easy way out for the perpetrators. The problem I feel is that too often people get leinent sentances for serious crime. If people felt that they would get 30+years for a murder. With no possibility of parole then it may act as a deterrant.
Just wait and see what the murderer(s) of these girls get. Probably 10 years, out in 6, mental rehabilitation and then off to do it again. Just like Sarah Paynes killer [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img] All because some do gooders will claim they are ill and need help. Help that wont bring back 2 girls at the beginning of their lives!
Obviously they'll get solitaty confinent (at huge public cost!) because if they were in GenPop theyd be torn to bits.
(There are of course moral implications to the average prisoners thought that its ok to murder 10 innocent adults as long as its not children - but i'll leave this to another time)
And this of course leaves out the possibility that we get miscarriages of justice, insane people claiming they did it etc
Questions for thought. If the caretaker and his gf were being held, how did the bodies get to the woods when someone may have found them before today? Accomplices? And if they made statements (willingly) on Friday why did the police allow them to walk out, only to re-arrest them this morning?
Thoughts to the family and friends
Im not sure about the Death Sentance when I think about it. Surely its an easy way out for the perpetrators. The problem I feel is that too often people get leinent sentances for serious crime. If people felt that they would get 30+years for a murder. With no possibility of parole then it may act as a deterrant.
Just wait and see what the murderer(s) of these girls get. Probably 10 years, out in 6, mental rehabilitation and then off to do it again. Just like Sarah Paynes killer [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img] All because some do gooders will claim they are ill and need help. Help that wont bring back 2 girls at the beginning of their lives!
Obviously they'll get solitaty confinent (at huge public cost!) because if they were in GenPop theyd be torn to bits.
(There are of course moral implications to the average prisoners thought that its ok to murder 10 innocent adults as long as its not children - but i'll leave this to another time)
And this of course leaves out the possibility that we get miscarriages of justice, insane people claiming they did it etc
Questions for thought. If the caretaker and his gf were being held, how did the bodies get to the woods when someone may have found them before today? Accomplices? And if they made statements (willingly) on Friday why did the police allow them to walk out, only to re-arrest them this morning?
Thoughts to the family and friends
17 August 2002, 10:30 PM
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It is important to remember that just because people are released from prison after 'miscarriages of justice' that does not mean that they did not commit the crime. Truth and the judicial system are miles apart.
It is a fact that no murderer has ever reoffended after being hung, not much use to the hundreds of people murdered by 'innocent'or 'unfairly' convicted 'victims' released early.
The possibility and horror of the death penalty would impact on the sad sick individuals who perpetrate such atrocities, and there would at least be no repetition of the sad circus of repeated retrials which serve no purpose but to feather the nest of the legal system and cause more sadness and upset to the victims family.
It is a fact that no murderer has ever reoffended after being hung, not much use to the hundreds of people murdered by 'innocent'or 'unfairly' convicted 'victims' released early.
The possibility and horror of the death penalty would impact on the sad sick individuals who perpetrate such atrocities, and there would at least be no repetition of the sad circus of repeated retrials which serve no purpose but to feather the nest of the legal system and cause more sadness and upset to the victims family.
17 August 2002, 10:59 PM
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Death penalty? Why bother, just put child murderers, rapists & similar offenders in a room with a group of mothers - no weapons would be required!!!!! If they died quickly it would probably save them a lot of pain!!
IMHO having the death penalty available would go in some way to act as a detterent as in 'if I kill, I get caught, I to will be killed'. Not saying it would deter all of societies sicko's though.
There is too much of this human rights & goody goody stuff in defence of people that have been proved to have committed some serious crimes. Do wrong - get punished!!
Don't get me started!! People these days have no remorse, don't understand the fundamental differences between right & wrong, have no respect for other people, their property, their rights, etc.
Arrrrggggg!! I said don't get me started!!
Den
IMHO having the death penalty available would go in some way to act as a detterent as in 'if I kill, I get caught, I to will be killed'. Not saying it would deter all of societies sicko's though.
There is too much of this human rights & goody goody stuff in defence of people that have been proved to have committed some serious crimes. Do wrong - get punished!!
Don't get me started!! People these days have no remorse, don't understand the fundamental differences between right & wrong, have no respect for other people, their property, their rights, etc.
Arrrrggggg!! I said don't get me started!!
Den
17 August 2002, 11:15 PM
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Just take a look at the good old U S of A. Many of their states have the death penalty but their rates of serious crime (inc murder, rape, etc) are far higher than ours. Yes, guns are easier to get than sweets but murder is murder.
18 August 2002, 02:01 AM
#16
The problem with applying a mandatory death sentence is that the perpetrator of a crime that warrants the death sentence has nothing to lose. They might as well keep killing as THEY can only be punished once, by way of Capital punishment.
I have to say that, as a step father, husband, friend to friends and an open honest person that I feel deeply, deeply saddened by the events of the last few days.
I despair for the families involved - I have lost someone dear to me in less traumatic circumstances and it takes years for the raw pain to ease. It relents only to give way to a changed person. If you have ever experienced a loss of this nature you will understand exactly what I mean.
My wife, whom I love dearly, wept tonight as do I for the families devestated by this most awful of nightmares.
I have to say that, as a step father, husband, friend to friends and an open honest person that I feel deeply, deeply saddened by the events of the last few days.
I despair for the families involved - I have lost someone dear to me in less traumatic circumstances and it takes years for the raw pain to ease. It relents only to give way to a changed person. If you have ever experienced a loss of this nature you will understand exactly what I mean.
My wife, whom I love dearly, wept tonight as do I for the families devestated by this most awful of nightmares.
18 August 2002, 11:50 AM
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Who has the right to take a life ? not me, not you not the murderer, not a judge or jury and not the brain dead daily mail readers who stupidly think the death penalty is a good idea.
18 August 2002, 03:55 PM
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i don't like the idea of my tax going to feed these horrible b@stard5 for the rest of their lives.
IMHO we are best of rid of them from the planet all together.
IMHO we are best of rid of them from the planet all together.
18 August 2002, 04:22 PM
#21
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When there is conclusive DNA evidence, I for one would support the death penalty for 'people' who murder children (under 18).
Only however if there was absolutely no doubt about the murderer.
Only however if there was absolutely no doubt about the murderer.
18 August 2002, 04:34 PM
#22
there will never be any case that is 100% absolute about convicting the correct person based on DNA evidence or confesions. Both are very flawed.
The law makes convictions based on being beyond "resonable" doubt. There are many cases of people later being released after a conviction beyond resonable doubt, when in fact they were not guilty of the offence at all.
The law makes convictions based on being beyond "resonable" doubt. There are many cases of people later being released after a conviction beyond resonable doubt, when in fact they were not guilty of the offence at all.
18 August 2002, 04:40 PM
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Lock them up for the rest of there lives....
Then use them as human guinea pigs, to test new drugs and operating techniques..
That way we get something back for paying to keep them alive, and we get important information for the medical research, and they get pain and suffering for what the B*&@~rds have done..
Then use them as human guinea pigs, to test new drugs and operating techniques..
That way we get something back for paying to keep them alive, and we get important information for the medical research, and they get pain and suffering for what the B*&@~rds have done..
18 August 2002, 04:50 PM
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They may take up tax payers money, especially these people who go on hunger strike and then we pay £500,000 to feed them via a tube. But how can we allow the death penalty with some many wrong verdicts etc. Its all good and well saying they deserve it but I think you would think a lot differently if the person to be execute was a loved one.
18 August 2002, 05:07 PM
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Oh yeah - how can you have 100% conclusive DNA evidence?? Even if its a 100% match it doesnt mean someone was at the crime scene and indeed did the crime.
18 August 2002, 05:57 PM
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DNA testing has over the last 5 years become incredibly accurate. Almost to the point of certainty. Current technology allows accuracy using DNA testing to 1 in a billion persons of accuracy.
That means it's possible that somebody else was the murderer, but with associated circumstantial evidence (for this case in particular) surely you'd agree it's a pretty certain way of proving if the caretaker and his girlfriend were responsible for this horrible killing.
That means it's possible that somebody else was the murderer, but with associated circumstantial evidence (for this case in particular) surely you'd agree it's a pretty certain way of proving if the caretaker and his girlfriend were responsible for this horrible killing.
18 August 2002, 06:25 PM
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You might get an absolutely perfect DNA match on (say) a hair found at a murder scene, but that does not mean that the person who the hair belonged to was there - let along committed the crime!!
Once convictions become "automated" using DNA evidence, i can see an awful lot of "contaminations" happening, to put the chosen person in the frame.
Back to the thread... in principle i agree with the death penalty, but how much proof is required? - i am not sure?
mb
Once convictions become "automated" using DNA evidence, i can see an awful lot of "contaminations" happening, to put the chosen person in the frame.
Back to the thread... in principle i agree with the death penalty, but how much proof is required? - i am not sure?
mb
18 August 2002, 08:05 PM
#28
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Dam right it should be life for a life unless it was an accident.
The law in this country is to soft thats why its getting worse and more and more people are moving here because its a joke.
The law in this country is to soft thats why its getting worse and more and more people are moving here because its a joke.
18 August 2002, 08:35 PM
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P1Fanatic: You can have 100% DNA match that is conclusive. Forensic science has improved so much in the last 5 years.
Not for example hairs or skin flakes, but in the case of sexual assaults/murders(which it's almost certain this case will be) you can generally use semen to determine without doubt the person responsible.
Of course you may suggest that it's possible to 'plant' evidence and I have to agree this is a possibility and then the DNA test would be 'fixed', however you have to make the assumption that in the majority of cases it would be pretty tricky to get hold of a semen sample to plant on a body.
Not for example hairs or skin flakes, but in the case of sexual assaults/murders(which it's almost certain this case will be) you can generally use semen to determine without doubt the person responsible.
Of course you may suggest that it's possible to 'plant' evidence and I have to agree this is a possibility and then the DNA test would be 'fixed', however you have to make the assumption that in the majority of cases it would be pretty tricky to get hold of a semen sample to plant on a body.