So Brexit seems to be a good thing then.
22 September 2018, 09:40 PM
#3421
Scooby Senior
The big difference is, I put the interests of the general population above my own personal gains. I will do well regardless, but I'd rather everyone is a bit better off than screw over the mass population in order to gain a couple of extra £'s.
Basically, what you are saying is you don't give a **** what happens to the UK as long as you get a little bit richer and you then have the nerve to suggest that British people who believe that Brexit is a bad thing should leave if they don't like it! Perhaps its you that should leave as your willingness to **** on your fellow countrymen for your own personal gain is quite frankly a dishonour to your nationality! I've lived in Germany for over 20 years, yet its clear I still care for MY country far more than you!
22 September 2018, 10:09 PM
#3424
Scooby Senior
23 September 2018, 11:45 AM
#3425
<iframe src="https://www.facebook.com/plugins/post.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fdav id.gilbert.9828%2Fposts%2F10217226126988829&width= 500" width="500" height="502" style="border:none;overflow:hidden" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowTransparency="true" allow="encrypted-media"></iframe>
shouldn't need to pay a penny to get out
shouldn't need to pay a penny to get out
23 September 2018, 11:59 AM
#3426
<iframe src="https://www.facebook.com/plugins/post.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fdav id.gilbert.9828%2Fposts%2F10217226126988829&width= 500" width="500" height="502" style="border:none;overflow:hidden" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowTransparency="true" allow="encrypted-media"></iframe>
shouldn't need to pay a penny to get out
shouldn't need to pay a penny to get out
26 September 2018, 02:36 PM
#3431
Scooby Senior
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45631792
Looks like Labour are finally starting to realise they'll get more support if they oppose Brexit!
Second referendum or GE and delay to Brexit is becoming increasingly likely as the Chequers plan is dead in the water and the Conservatives continue to pull themselves apart!
Looks like Labour are finally starting to realise they'll get more support if they oppose Brexit!
Second referendum or GE and delay to Brexit is becoming increasingly likely as the Chequers plan is dead in the water and the Conservatives continue to pull themselves apart!
26 September 2018, 05:01 PM
#3432
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https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45631792
Looks like Labour are finally starting to realise they'll get more support if they oppose Brexit!
Second referendum or GE and delay to Brexit is becoming increasingly likely as the Chequers plan is dead in the water and the Conservatives continue to pull themselves apart!
Looks like Labour are finally starting to realise they'll get more support if they oppose Brexit!
Second referendum or GE and delay to Brexit is becoming increasingly likely as the Chequers plan is dead in the water and the Conservatives continue to pull themselves apart!
We're better off going for some kind of free trade deal and hoping for the best
26 September 2018, 05:26 PM
#3434
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https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45631792
Looks like Labour are finally starting to realise they'll get more support if they oppose Brexit!
Second referendum or GE and delay to Brexit is becoming increasingly likely as the Chequers plan is dead in the water and the Conservatives continue to pull themselves apart!
Looks like Labour are finally starting to realise they'll get more support if they oppose Brexit!
Second referendum or GE and delay to Brexit is becoming increasingly likely as the Chequers plan is dead in the water and the Conservatives continue to pull themselves apart!
26 September 2018, 06:48 PM
#3436
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27 September 2018, 09:58 AM
#3438
Let's be honest, the questions was too simple, as people had different reasons, and a simple in or out was ridiculous. Now that people are actually able to see how an exit will pan out, why not ask them if this is really what they want? If the answer is the same, fair enough, if not, then we change it (whether that's a deal like Norway or even just remain in the EU).
It's like asking for a quote on something and then being forced to take that quote even if it's nothing like what you envisaged.
27 September 2018, 10:20 AM
#3439
I don't understand this line of thinking whatsoever. Democracy is allowing the people to have their say. Why is letting people have their say on the deal undemocratic?
Let's be honest, the questions was too simple, as people had different reasons, and a simple in or out was ridiculous. Now that people are actually able to see how an exit will pan out, why not ask them if this is really what they want? If the answer is the same, fair enough, if not, then we change it (whether that's a deal like Norway or even just remain in the EU).
It's like asking for a quote on something and then being forced to take that quote even if it's nothing like what you envisaged.
Let's be honest, the questions was too simple, as people had different reasons, and a simple in or out was ridiculous. Now that people are actually able to see how an exit will pan out, why not ask them if this is really what they want? If the answer is the same, fair enough, if not, then we change it (whether that's a deal like Norway or even just remain in the EU).
It's like asking for a quote on something and then being forced to take that quote even if it's nothing like what you envisaged.
Don't get me wrong, I was a remainer by a long way.
It's a shower of **** now.
27 September 2018, 10:37 AM
#3440
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I don't understand this line of thinking whatsoever. Democracy is allowing the people to have their say. Why is letting people have their say on the deal undemocratic?
Let's be honest, the questions was too simple, as people had different reasons, and a simple in or out was ridiculous. Now that people are actually able to see how an exit will pan out, why not ask them if this is really what they want? If the answer is the same, fair enough, if not, then we change it (whether that's a deal like Norway or even just remain in the EU).
It's like asking for a quote on something and then being forced to take that quote even if it's nothing like what you envisaged.
Let's be honest, the questions was too simple, as people had different reasons, and a simple in or out was ridiculous. Now that people are actually able to see how an exit will pan out, why not ask them if this is really what they want? If the answer is the same, fair enough, if not, then we change it (whether that's a deal like Norway or even just remain in the EU).
It's like asking for a quote on something and then being forced to take that quote even if it's nothing like what you envisaged.
It would be a complete con trick to put remain back on the ballot, especially against 2 leave options, remain would win pretty much any circumstance if you have 2 leave choices.
I think that another vote would prove to be incredibly divisive.
27 September 2018, 11:55 AM
#3441
But if a majority are now genuinely of the opinion that we would be better off in the EU, isn't it undemocratic to deny them that? The alternative is to exit, cause untold disruption and then re-apply to join the EU in a future parliament. If you think the EU has the upper hand now, then imagine what that would be like!
I don't disagree it would be divisive, but the country is split anyway, better to be divided and economically sound than divided and in recession? As the old saying goes, money doesn't make you happy, but you'd rather be rich and miserable than poor and miserable
I don't disagree it would be divisive, but the country is split anyway, better to be divided and economically sound than divided and in recession? As the old saying goes, money doesn't make you happy, but you'd rather be rich and miserable than poor and miserable
27 September 2018, 11:59 AM
#3442
But if a majority are now genuinely of the opinion that we would be better off in the EU, isn't it undemocratic to deny them that? The alternative is to exit, cause untold disruption and then re-apply to join the EU in a future parliament. If you think the EU has the upper hand now, then imagine what that would be like!
I don't disagree it would be divisive, but the country is split anyway, better to be divided and economically sound than divided and in recession? As the old saying goes, money doesn't make you happy, but you'd rather be rich and miserable than poor and miserable
I don't disagree it would be divisive, but the country is split anyway, better to be divided and economically sound than divided and in recession? As the old saying goes, money doesn't make you happy, but you'd rather be rich and miserable than poor and miserable
27 September 2018, 01:03 PM
#3444
Scooby Senior
The original referendum asked a very simplistic question of "in or out?" without defining, to paraphrase, what Brexit means! After all, "Brexit means Brexit" is simply meaningless! Brexit is such a complicated issue, which is now extremely apparent, that the simple in or out question is insufficient for such a huge constitutional change and the result risks dividing the population for a generation.
Once (if) a deal has been agreed and Brexit actually means something then its the most democratic thing to ask the public again if this is what they really envisaged of Brexit and are happy with the terms. A second referendum should also pose two distinct questions:
1. Do you accept or reject the deal that has been made
2. If you reject the deal, should the UK exit with no deal or remain in the EU.
If there is anyway no deal on the table, then you can obviously drop question 1. I would also argue for a qualified majority of at least 60% for either question to act on public opinion alone Without a qualified majority, then the decision should be a free vote in parliament (no party whips involved).
27 September 2018, 01:08 PM
#3445
It is now clear (or clearer) on how things will look after Brexit. The lies are exposed, the difficulties clear, it would actually be irresponsible to plough ahead like this.
Obviously I would prefer to remain, but also I would have accepted an orderly Brexit with sufficient time to make sure we didn't screw thousands of businesses and millions of people, whether that be deal or no deal. No deal could still have been handled to deliver a much less problematic solution, but they have basically spent two years pissing about, and now we face this.
27 September 2018, 01:51 PM
#3446
The country was told this is a once in a lifetime decision, you have to think about now and your children and grand children.
The vote was to leave or stay. Yes a difficult decision and if you didn't understand or comprehend what it meant, more fool you.
To leave is to leave all EU institutions
Leaving will cause upheaval, but that doesn't change the decision to leave. That is down to the government and the EU to come to a free trade agreement or no deal if things can't be ageed.
29th March 2019 is when the UK is no longer in the EU. deal or no deal is immaterial to the decision to leave.
The vote was to leave or stay. Yes a difficult decision and if you didn't understand or comprehend what it meant, more fool you.
To leave is to leave all EU institutions
Leaving will cause upheaval, but that doesn't change the decision to leave. That is down to the government and the EU to come to a free trade agreement or no deal if things can't be ageed.
29th March 2019 is when the UK is no longer in the EU. deal or no deal is immaterial to the decision to leave.
27 September 2018, 02:02 PM
#3447
The country was told this is a once in a lifetime decision, you have to think about now and your children and grand children.
The vote was to leave or stay. Yes a difficult decision and if you didn't understand or comprehend what it meant, more fool you.
To leave is to leave all EU institutions
Leaving will cause upheaval, but that doesn't change the decision to leave. That is down to the government and the EU to come to a free trade agreement or no deal if things can't be ageed.
29th March 2019 is when the UK is no longer in the EU. deal or no deal is immaterial to the decision to leave.
The vote was to leave or stay. Yes a difficult decision and if you didn't understand or comprehend what it meant, more fool you.
To leave is to leave all EU institutions
Leaving will cause upheaval, but that doesn't change the decision to leave. That is down to the government and the EU to come to a free trade agreement or no deal if things can't be ageed.
29th March 2019 is when the UK is no longer in the EU. deal or no deal is immaterial to the decision to leave.
Your second line illustrates how utterly unrepresentative your view is. Of the people I know who voted leave, some didn't like immigration, some didn't like the (perceived) undemocratic EU, other regulations, etc etc. However, some of them also absolutely preferred to be part of the EU as a trading bloc, but could not reconcile that with their strong feelings about whatever it was that motivated them to vote Leave. But, the over simplistic question and subsequent choice mean that lots of people are unhappy.
I also know people who voted remain who were deeply unhappy with certain aspects of EU membership. What a mess.
But, you cannot change an institution from without.
Whatever your politics, it's clear that no deal will be an utter disaster. With the exception of one or two extremely pro leave economists, the view is that is will hurt the UK economy, alot.
Big business is very nervous, and they have the resources to deal with some of the fallout. There are tens of thousand of SMEs who will now have to manage an immediate transition to new tarriffs, import and export rules, trying to avoid falling foul of any new legislation, the list goes on. It will simply overwhelm many.
Add on the years of disruption as new trade deals are worked out, it's a grim picture. No deal is the worst deal, it really is.
Last edited by Mr Fuji; 27 September 2018 at 02:04 PM.
27 September 2018, 02:11 PM
#3449
That's not what I am saying at all, hence the quote analogy. The referendum was flawed in it's simplicity, both campaigns lied (Leave also broke the law). The public were in no position to make an informed decision.
It is now clear (or clearer) on how things will look after Brexit. The lies are exposed, the difficulties clear, it would actually be irresponsible to plough ahead like this.
Obviously I would prefer to remain, but also I would have accepted an orderly Brexit with sufficient time to make sure we didn't screw thousands of businesses and millions of people, whether that be deal or no deal. No deal could still have been handled to deliver a much less problematic solution, but they have basically spent two years pissing about, and now we face this.
It is now clear (or clearer) on how things will look after Brexit. The lies are exposed, the difficulties clear, it would actually be irresponsible to plough ahead like this.
Obviously I would prefer to remain, but also I would have accepted an orderly Brexit with sufficient time to make sure we didn't screw thousands of businesses and millions of people, whether that be deal or no deal. No deal could still have been handled to deliver a much less problematic solution, but they have basically spent two years pissing about, and now we face this.
27 September 2018, 02:15 PM
#3450
Yes, it was never clear cut. I don't think you will find anyone that feels the EU was 100% perfect and doesn't have serious issues that need resolving. I feel exactly that as a remainer personally, but on the whole I still feel strongly it was in our interest and best future for the country to remain in the EU, even with it's issues.