alcazar

iTrader: (2)

http://www.itv.com/news/2016-01-12/e...snp-mp-claims/

Can you believe this guy?

We already HAVE Scots only votes on Scottish laws etc, but now the first one for England/wales has gone through WITHOUT Scottish MP's, it's angering Scots?????

What a bunch on whiny hypocrites if it is.

neil-h

Agreed, how an SNP representative can make a statement like that is completely beyond me.

madscoob

iTrader: (3)

typical FRISP

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

Whether he actually believes it's "infuriating" a large proportion of Scots or he's just saying it to play up to the cameras (my money's on the latter), all he's really proved is what a useless overpaid waste of space he is.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Reading between the lines, it looks like yet ANOTHER attempt to get the neverendum on the table again.

Let's let 'em go...see how far they get with oil at it's present level, LOL.

Devildog

Jeff


I'd typed up a long reply explaining what the real issue is (as opposed to the English media's take on it) but unfortunately Scoobynets propensity to just not f*cking work binned it.


Suffice to say I can't be bothered typing it all out again because you're probably not astute enough to understand the difference between MSP's voting on legally devolved Scottish matters in the Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh (which have zero impact on anyone but Scottish people) and MP's elected at a General Election to serve in the UK Government in Westminster.


There is no English Parliament, no EMP's and there are no devolved English only laws


You do realise that are still many matters which are specific to Scotland (due to Scots law being different) voted on by all MP's in Westminster?


No one was complaining when Scottish MP's in Westminster were mostly Labour, voting to support a Labour PM, irrespective of what they were voting on and who it affected. Go think about it

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Nope, I feel YOU are missing the point.

We, down here, have had years of Scottish MPs voting with government to deny things like student grants for the English, where the Scots get them, prescription charges etc etc. Just meanness.

yet ask WHY the Scots get them and we don't, we are given b/s about using the money differently....the Scots get stuff we don't, we get stuff they don't. And then ask WHAT we get that they don't, and it all goes quiet. The so-called west Lothian question.

Now we have a situation where laws that can have no effect on Scotland can only be voted on by English?welsh MPs. And what do we get? Scottish whining?

So......can you REALLY say it's wrong?

And as for not complaining before, please check: a LOT of people were complaining. But were overruled.

DaveyP

The point is that, as there is no English parliament, Westminster ruling the whole UK, every decision made there has a knock-on effect on Scotland, Wales and NI, whereas decisions made in those three countries have no effect on England.

DaveyP

But, far more importantly, this is a house of parliament, regardless of nationality, denying certain members a right which other have. Simply be causing of where they're from. Surely that's not cricket.

neil-h

Don't they? I'll be surprised if they don't.

DaveyP

Well, in what way do they?

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

But it was OK when the west Lothian MP's voted for NO grants for our students, then went home and voted for grants for Scottish students? No double standards there?

Nonsense. THESE decisions have been singled out as having NO effect of Scotland, hence the Scottish MP's don't get to vote.

YOUR leader etc accepted all this when he/she asked for more devolution. They were told this would be the result. they took the devolution, now don't want to play by the rules.

DaveyP

Your first response is entirely irrelevant to the point I was making.

Your second response shows that you are unaware of the sex of our First Minister or 'Leader'.

I'm going to assume that this is pointless and tune out.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

LOL, So the West Lothian question is fine then? No problem? Of course not...to Scots, but the resentment here?????

As for your leader, who WAS the leader when you had your neverendum? And who asked for more devolution during it? And after it?

Salmond, (male), and Sturgeon, (Female, last time I looked?)

NOW who's not up to speed?

Devildog

Quote:

Originally Posted by alcazar

Butit was OK when the west Lothian MP's voted for NO grants for our students, thenwent home and voted for grants for Scottish students? No double standardsthere?

Jeff


As anticipated, you've evidenced that you are not astute enough to understand the point here.


Firstly,the so called "West Lothian question" was a term that was first coined in 1977, when Tam Dalyell, Labour MP for West Lothian asked why it was that 119 Scottish MP's could vote on "English Politics" whilst having no say in the same matters in Scotland. He gave the example of the fact that a member of parliament for West Lothian who could vote on matters affecting Blackburn (in Lancashire), but not on matters relative to the Blackburn in his own constituency. The name "West Lothian question" was later coined by the Enoch Powell in a response to Dalyell's speech.


Ithad nothing to do with west Lothian MPs supposedly voting on student grants.


Secondly, matters of Scottish politics are decided in the Scottish Parliament by MSPs. They are not the same individuals as the MPs elected to Westminster. So not only are you wrong about West Lothian MPs (there's no apostrophe and there is only one West Lothian MP) but those voting in any decision about student grants for English students could not, in fact, have "gone home and voted for grants for Scottish students".


As with the Law itself,the Scottish education system has been very different to that operated inEngland and Wales since long before you or I were at school.


Its quite clear you have no idea about this entire subject (having gleaned your "knowledge" from the sensationalism of the English media perhaps?) and as such it is hardly worth commenting on your other assertions, but for the sake of completeness (and to make you look even more ignorant of the facts) why not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alcazar

Nonsense. THESE decisions have been singled out as having NO effect of Scotland, hence the Scottish MP's don't get to vote

The speaker (on occasion assisted by two MPs) decides what's relevant and what's not. There's no debate, no committee, no legal analysis, no independent review. One (maybe three) man (men's) opinion. Currently that's John Bercow, and ex Conservative councillor and then MP. merchant banker and lobbyist. Sounds like the perfect man for the job. not.


What the Scottish Government decides to spend its (Westminster fixed) allocation ofthe UK PLC "pot" has no bearing on England. What Westminster decides to spend the rest ofthe UK PLC "pot" on absolutely does and will always do so as the devolved powers do not give (in this example) Scotland autonomy, simply because they are not sufficiently wide ranging to do so. If England pisses away £billions of tax revenue, that directly affects Scotland,Wales and Northern Ireland.


And that’s why Scotland's First Minister sought greater devolved powers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alcazar

YOUR leader etc accepted all this when he/she asked for more devolution. They were told this would be the result. they took the devolution, now don't want toplay by the rules.

We've not yet been given the further devolved powers that were promised at the time of the referendum. And its looking unlikely we'll see them anytime soon. We played by the rules Jeff. We're still playing by the rules,but it seems Westminster is unwilling to come good on its promise.


There's only one person on this thread who's "not up to speed". And its not DaveyP

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

TBH, I think you are hair-splitting.

"The West Lothian Question" WAS used during the last Labour parliament to mean exactly what I said.

It matters not who votes for what, the FACT that Scottish MP's could vote for something that affected hundreds of thousands of ENGLISH AND WELSH students, then go home and vote for, or see someone else vote for giving the Scottish students EXACTLY what the English and Welsh ones had just been denied. And that was OK? Same thing with prescriptions.

As for the further devolved powers, not my problem, LOL. If you were naive enough to believe Cameron and Co. you deserve what you get...or don't get

Personally, I reckon you should IMMEDIATELY have another neverendum, vote to go, and then see how far "your" oil revenue gets you. LOL

Astute enough for you I may not be, but I can read the writing on the wall. And it's the rest of the UK laughing at you now.

Devildog

Jeff,

The only laughing here is at your ignorance.

At the time of the voting your referring in respect of further education and healthcare the political split of MP's and MSPs was significantly different than it is now.

The number of SNP MP's in the Scottish Parliament was not reflected in the number of SNP MP's in Westminster. In fact there were very few SNP MP's in Westminster at that time.

The same parties SMP's and MP's were fundamentally voting the same way in Edinburgh as they were in London. To make it simple for you:

There were no Scottish MP's voting "against" in Westminster who were voting "for" in Scotland. Because Scottish MP's don't have a seat in the Scottish Parliament.

The Parties were voting the same way in England as they were in Scotland.

The party representation being significantly different at that time, however, gave rise to a different result north and south of the border. Its not a difficult concept.

I'm not splitting hairs. I'm stating facts that you can't seem to understand.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Oh, I'm understanding it, but it makes no difference how you slant it, the FACT remained that we, the English, were "done down" by the Scots. Whether at the behest of their parties or not, makes no difference.

Boot's on the other foot now, and what do you know? Scottish whining.

DaveyP

As predicted. Pointless.

Devildog

Jeff


You crack me up.


There are 59 "Scottish" MPs


There are 650 seats in the House of Commons


Even if every Scottish MP voted against grants for England that's less than 10% of the total number of MP's. But of course, the number of Scottish SNP MPs at the time of the votes you are referring to was tiny, 6 in fact if I recall correctly and no independents, so all the rest would be voting in accordance with the whip of their respective party.


There are, however, 533 English MPs,


And yet you are trying to somehow state as fact that England was "done over" by Scottish MPs.


if 1% if the English MPs had voted in favour of grants that would have effectively extinguished the "Scottish" influence.


If you were "done over" at all, you were "done over" by your own, ENGLISH, MPs. Not the Scottish ones.


Its funny how this has all come to a head now that there are 56 SNP MPs in Westminster, although that's more of an issue on a part vs party vote than an English v Scottish vote


And yet you STILL claim to understand

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

More whining...from both of you And even more hair splitting.

Oh well, you can have another neverendum once wee Mary Nesbitt asks, and then you can wander off into wherever with all your oil money...oh...wait....



Just imagine electing a leader that looks, and talks like Mary Nesbitt?
And you lot wonder why we laugh at you?

DaveyP

Do you really think we elect people based on their looks? Where did you read that, the 'Daily Lobotomy'?
Dude, we live in Scotland [the country to the North (that's up on the map) of yours], not in the telly!

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Nah, you're all made up characters from the Dandy and the Beano...I know.

Seriously though, how DO you take wee Mary seriously?

Devildog

Well Jeff, its somewhat easier to take Sturgeon seriously than it is someone who considers clearly evidencing by way of fact to be "splitting hairs" Not forgetting how the main parties in England metaphorically crapped themselves when Scotland returned so many SNP seats.


And, for you of all people to be accusing someone else of "whining" is one of the funniest things I've read on here for a while Textbook irony.


Lets recap this thread.


You whine and moan about something you've probably read in the Express or Daily Fail (or any number of English media outlets that don't have a clue about how the political system actually works in Scotland)


I politely point out that what you've posted can't actually have happened.


I point out that if you got "done over", you got "done over" by your own, 500 plus English, MPs, not a handful of Scottish ones. I provide factual statistics to back that up.


You then resort to childish attempts at belittling of Sturgeon based on her accent and accusations that providing facts is "splitting hairs"


And you're, what, an (ex teacher? - sorry, I can't be arsed searching) turned trainspotter from Scunthorpe? Sorry, make that a childish (ex teacher? - sorry, I can't be arsed searching) turned trainspotter from Scunthorpe


How's your accent Jeff? And why are you so obsessed with the thought of another referendum? Apparently it will hardly bake a difference to you whatever happens.


Maybe we should add "obsessive" to the list


PS, the Dandy and The Beano may have been published in Scotland but they did not depict Scottish characters. The comics that did were The Broons and Oor Wullie.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Loads of Scots in dandy and beano, Wee Ben nevis, minnie, dennis, Jocks and geordies.

Which one was based on you?

PS: Stop whining.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

A couple questions for DaveyP and DevilDog
Do you agree with MP Pete Wishart that the majority of Scots are 'infuriated' at Scottish MPs not being allowed to vote or express an opinion on the legislation in question? Do either of you personally feel infuriated about this?

DaveyP

No, I don't think that the majority of Scots are infuriated by it.
I personally am disappointed rather than infuriated. As I stated in an earlier post, I think it's wrong that any house of parliament, regardless of where it is in the world can deny certain members a right which others have based purely on the constituency they represent.

Devildog

Never read it so I'll give you that the Jocks and Wee Ben Nevis were Scottish but the Geordies obviously were not, and Dennis the Menace and Minnie the Minx were of no particular nationality

Devildog

Basically what DaveyP said.


Nationality should not exclude any MP from voting on any matter in a government to which they have been democratically elected for that very purpose.


Good piece in the Independent about why its wrong:


http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...-a6706701.html


Jeff, I urge you to read it - you may learn a few things.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Most cartoons were drawn as Scottish based:the police officers always had the Scottish type peaked caps, and used expressions like "it's needing done" rather than, the English "it needs doing". There were often haggis factories in the background, or haggises running along the street.

Roger the dodger and Beryl the peril were two more, as were the Bash street kids. All based on Scots.

Perhaps you ought to read it, DD, might have a better sense of humour, and be able to laugh at yourselves a bit more? after all, the rest of the UK is doing so now.