Dirk Diggler 75

In or Out,i say out ........

Milneragain

I say in, as my job depends on it.

hodgy0_2

What is your position based on?

The economic one - i.e. we would be better/richer economically being "out"

If so, is that everyone (richer/better off) or just low paid workers or highly paid workers or "everyone"

Or is it democracy - I.e lack of democratic representation/control over things that affect you/me/us

And if so what are those "things" and who do they effect (negatively?) you / me - the collective "US"

What's the main gripe?

c_maguire

Pointless question now.
The question will be relevant when the referendum occurs, and the terms under which we belong have been re-negotiated.
Contrary to the predictable dismissals regarding the re-negotiation, there is a very good chance of a positive outcome as many of the points for negotiation benefit other members also.
At that point I vote to stay in.

dpb

In , out , shake it all about

I can't see we should pull out now , but if Greece and a couple more major players exit that's when we should go

b3nmw

Personnelly I would say out because we pay a lot of money in and don't seem to get enough out of it. However I don't know what sort of impact it would have on everyone

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

If you think you will get a referendum then you need to read up on article 50 of the Lisbon treaty aswell as read up on "Qualified Majority Voting". There is a reason Cameron chose late in 2017 for the referendum.

c_maguire

What relevance has article 50 got to do with a UK referendum on staying in or leaving, that referendum is now a matter of record and principle and will happen. The public (clueless or clued-up, that remains to be seen) will get to vote.
The leadership of the current government want the UK to stay in, and probably the majority of the party.
The Labour party, Liberals and SNP also want in.
Therefore negative propaganda will on the whole probably be UKIP led.
On the whole the public likely also want to stay in, but a significant number (me included) have issues with its influence currently.
Therefore success with some, but not all, of the concessions proposed will probably secure a 'stay in' vote.
There is a risk to a referendum, but it became an inevitability.

Anyhow, put your money where your mouth is if you are so confident.
I'll wager you £500 that the referendum occurs.

hodgy0_2

So you think we get something out, just not enough to make up for the cost

What "something" is that

Presumably it is the inward investment and access to a very large free trade area

Dingdongler

But you are assuming that we wouldn't otherwise get the inward investment or get to trade freely with others. Is that a true assumption?

hodgy0_2

I am assuming nothing

I have already stated in another thread that a Brexit would not see an economic collapse - the world would still turn

investment / trade would continue

however, there must be a reason why the likes of the CBI are lobbying to stay in

and organisations like Deutsche Bank are actively exploring their options if we leave

why would Nissan/Ford want to suffer a 17% export tariff to send its cars across the channel

the economic case for leaving is far from a slam dunk, and there would be winners and losers, as with everything

i am just asking, amongst other things who the winners and losers are

Sad Weevil

iTrader: (1)

Leaving aside the economic and legislative pros and cons for the moment, for me, a very big pro is one of the cornerstones of the EC: the free movement within the EC of individuals from member states. Nowadays, we are free to work, socialise and mix and mingle, intermarry, and generally get along just fine, as recently as 70 years ago we were slaughtering each other on an industrial scale.

Martin2005

This

stevebt

iTrader: (8)

I don't really have an opinion on it either way but if Greece is trying that hard to stay in it surely it's better for our economy if we do? I know shares will take a dive if we vote out as the world wants us to stay in.

hodgy0_2

which is one of the cornerstones of the EU and you are absolutely right to call it out

we went as a family (Me, wife and 5 kids) to the wedding of our old Au Pair in Paderborn (Germany) last year

and it was as simple as if we were driving to Edinburgh

neil-h

It's nice to see people on here can see this as a pro to staying in the EU. Considering there are people on here who would have use believe this is the single biggest con because of the big nasty Eastern Europeans who came over on mass taking all our money/jobs/women.

dpb

You could do that anyway , maybe a little pricier


I sincerely doubt we would start slaughtering each other straight away if federal state of Europe fell down tomorrow

Dingdongler

I'm not pretending to know the answers and am also searching for the winners and losers.

What is your source for this 17% export tariff and would it definitely exist? Wouldn't it depend on what new trade deal we negotiated?

Dingdongler

Sam, you generally talk a lot of sense and I appreciate your sentiment but find that statement lacking in substance. We don't need to belong to an institution the size of the EU to be able to 'socialize, mix and mingle and intermarry'

Human beings have been doing all those things for centuries. I travel 2-3 times a year (almost never to Europe) and have no problems of any kind at all.

hodgy0_2

I believe that is the tariff on cars imported into the EU (which obviously if we left, would be due on exports/imports into the EU, although we could raise tariffs on European cars we import - not the we do!!!!)

and yes we could negotiate new trade deals - at what level and whether they would be any better, who knows

dpb

We'd do at least as well in Eurovision if we left

b3nmw

Maybe so with trading but we seem to be a hell of a lot of money compared to other countries. I think the money should be invested into the nhs and the uk as a whole. Why the **** are we governed by Europe and there laws. In ww2 we fought for freedom now we do as we are told. Who wants more immigrants over here, I don't.

Sad Weevil

iTrader: (1)

We may not now, but boy, did we need it after ww2. I'm just saying the EU isn't just about economics. It's done a whole lot of good for every one of us, in many ways, which is frequently taken for granted.

Movement is easy almost everywhere nowadays, a couple of years ago I went by train from Bristol to Singapore via EU, Belarus, Russia, Mongolia, China, Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand and Malaysia, and had less hassle than a Ryanair flight to Alicante......but it's not movement in that sense that I'm talking about, it's the ability to be allowed to work and set up home and business and so on, anywhere in the EU.

daviee

OUT ! Only good thing about Europe is I spend 4 weeks a year in it the rest you can keep from immigration to Europe telling me what shape a banana should be. The UK did alright for circa 2000 years before we joined them and would do alright without them for the next 2000 years.

Dirk Diggler 75

This ^^^

Martin2005

Actually you spend 52 weeks a year in Europe, that isn't going to change whether we leave or not (unless you emigrate of course).
The bendy bananas argument is idiotic BTW.
As for 2000 years of history, well most of that was spent at war and/or under some sort of occupation.

daviee

We are not attached to Europe we are a Island "the UK that that once spanned from USA to Australia in the past. Those occupied countries benefitted from our occupation unlike our benefit from being "part of Europe" its a bit like your kids trying to tell you how to manage your affairs(patronising). I would like to see Cameron grow some and get back to being the "great " part of Britain, 100 years ago we did not need Polish dentists or Indian surgeons so why do we need them now ?.

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

I think if you take a look through the history books you'll find that that the Polish and Indians fought and died for this country, so have every right to be here.

The reason we need them now is the UK is full of thick lazy *****.

hodgy0_2

The poles and Indians are two very poor examples

I believe the Polish shot down more Germans in the Battle of Britain per pilot than any other allied countrymen

They have even erected a memorial to them, outside RAF Northolt on the A40

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

There's one in Newark, Notts too, not to mention how both helped rebuild and help Britain get back on it's feet after the war.