fatherpierre

It's been a while, a long time since I've used this site, but I have a question I need answering quickly. I recall SN being good for quick fire stuff:

Q: I've had an offer rejected on a house. The agent said an asking price offer was accepted yesterday when he called me to tell me my offer was not enough.

I've just called him back to tell him I wiil offer £x, which is over the accepted offer, but he tells me the deal is sealed and he won't pass it to the vendor.

Is that;

1. Legal

2. Accepted practice

Surely the job of the agent is to secure the best price/ position for a sale. I'm pretty much a cash buyer with nothing to sell, so no hold ups.

I smell a rat, and insider dealing here.

Ta.

fatherpierre

And no contracts have been exchanged. I know this because it's a deceased estate and the executor is in Canada.

The Pink Ninja

iTrader: (23)

If the vendor has agreed to the price and agreed to take it off the market for an asking price offer, the deal is done IMO, morally anyway...legally I have no idea but would you like your higher offer to be cancelled for someone's else's after it has been accepted if the shoe was on the other foot.

fatherpierre

Cash is king, surely? We live in a Tory led country.

I'm not overly fussed, but I'd be pretty annoyed if I was the seller missing out on more money if an agent didn't pass it on.

bustaMOVEs

iTrader: (31)

Isn't there new rules on gazumping now?

Trinity

iTrader: (28)

Personally, I think the estate agent has done the right thing.

fatherpierre

No idea. No contracts are signed, it's all verbal.

CREWJ

Morally I agree with the estate agent but legally you are still allowed to gazump. Had it happen to me recently before I bought my house. Offered the full asking price then someone outbid me after they accepted the full amount.

fatherpierre

If you were the seller, would you feel that way? I'm offering £15k more. That's £15000 they're missing out on.

The job of the agent, what they're paid for, is to get the best price. My extra money is about the amount the agent will get in fees.

thenewgalaxy

All's fair in love and war matey, you took a risk by trying the lowest offer you could get away with and it didn't pay off.

I'd annoy the agent with regular phonecalls to try and swing it, but as far as I'm aware he has no obligation to do anything if an agreement has been made.

Would look at other properties while I was at it, too.

fatherpierre

Indeed. As I said, I'm not overly fussed. I'm just asking about the legal aspect of it, and thinking how I would feel if a paid agent didn't pass on a better offer, as their job is to get the best price possible. I know for a fact the accepted offer is £15k, if not £20k less than I will pay, so the vendor is missing out.

Trinity

iTrader: (28)

You put the low ball offer in, now you are whining about it.

Its not nice to gazump somebody, the asking price was the asking price, the seller got it. Job done with morals intact.

fatherpierre

Now I recall why I don't use this site.....

I'm asking two questions re legality and estate agent rules.

Anyone else with actual knowledge as opposed to opinion?

Steve001

iTrader: (7)

'Now I recall why I don't use this site.....'

Don't get your knickers in a twist
This is a car related site after all, the advice given looks ok to me.
Shouldn't you be asking your solicitor the question to get a definitive legal answer?

Trinity

iTrader: (28)

lol.

Anything with a moral basis will get opinionated on, fact of life really.

Another fact is there is in the wrong section and needs moving. Here is the correct one

https://www.scoobynet.com/non-scooby-related-4/

fatherpierre

*****. I thought I'd put it in NSR......

I wasn't meaning to twist my knickers

LVC

As an Estate Agent for 15 years and legally qualified in property conveyancing in France (which is about 4 million times more controlled and regulated than the UK for estate agency) my opinion is the following:

- The estate agent in question is either on a fixed fee (they get paid the maximum figure no matter what offer is agreed on and therefore doesn't care about gazumping).
- The estate agent is flogging it off to a pal for a "cash" figure/fee
- The estate agent is scared about repercussions from the buyer who offered the full asking price.

As far as I am aware the UK law does still allow for gazumping and the seller is not under any contractual obligation to sell at the listed price on the agreement between them and the agent (this is the opposite of what we have over here).

So ..... if you really want this property then you need to play dirty ...... the easiest way is to find another agent who's listing the same property and then get them to gazump the asking price offer on the table - this new agent has a vested interest in doing this as he's not going to get a penny if the 1st agent sells it.

If there is no 2nd agent available (exclusivity with agent no.1) then go offer the agent £5k in his pocket to put in and get accepted your guzmping offer for £10k more.

Good luck.

fatherpierre

Thank you.

So the agent has no legal obligation to pass on my offer? I actually have access to the vendor's daughter ( not biblically!) but want to do do this as smoothly as possible. I've been less than impressed with the agent but don't want him to miss out on his fee if needs be.

Turbohot

Good to see a post from you, Mr. fatherpierre. I did think where you had gone. It's good when some people return for some action here.

I also think of SiPie and SJSkyline. I don't know why they don't post much here any more.

Now you can go back to the topic.

LVC

In which case phone her up with your offer - the contract the seller has is with the agent direct - the buyer does not pay the agent (albeit the funds come from the same place) - so the agent can claim their fee from the seller and the seller can decide which offer to accept.

Call up the daughter and explain that the agent doesn't seem to be willing to pass on your offer so you've come direct with it and see what she says.

"Legal obligation and UK estate agents" that's a bit like "Good and estate agent" - some are and some do but IMHO most UK ones I've come across are crap and have little or no understanding of how to "sell" anything let alone an understanding of conveyancing laws.

fatherpierre

Howdy. It's been ages.... I got older and busier.

fatherpierre

I was thinking of cutting out the middleman and splitting any difference, but it's a small village and business is business. I was just amazed when he said the deal was done, considering they were having viewings yesterday. I'm actually fairly Luke warm on the house, but my wife used to deliver papers there 20 odd years back as a teenager and has loved it ever since.

LVC

I'd definitely call the daughter and explain that you put an offer in which was not accepted, you understand that there's a full asking price offer on the table and that when you asked the agent to put forward your higher offer he seemed reluctant to do that. Tel her what your offer is and then she can decide - as far as agency fees are concerned that's between the sellers and the agent - not your problem.

CREWJ

What's the legal stance on just popping round and making an offer?

LVC

There's nothing legally stopping that whatsoever - there's no signed contract between the buyer and agency - as said the contract is between seller and agency so it'll be up to the agency to prove that the buyer is there "thanks to" their marketing. In the UK agency fees are actually quite low, over here we're now on an average fee of 5% (used to be 8%), I will fix mine if the property is over 1 million (I sell a number of chateaux) as otherwise it gets silly.

fatherpierre

Thanks for the advice. My sister in law is working on getting details of the seller.

Midlife......

iTrader: (2)

I thought the offer had to be made through an estate agent if there is one...... the corollary is that the Estate agent is legally bound to pass your offer onto the vendor.

AFAIK you are both in the wrong. Have a look on the gov.uk website.

Shaun

fatherpierre

I'm just a potential buyer with an offer. How can I be in the wrong? The only contract made so far is between the estate agent and the vendor.

Midlife......

iTrader: (2)

From the UK Gov website on offers...

4. Offers

A buyer must make an offer through the estate agent if a home is sold through one.

A buyer can make their offer directly to the seller for a private sale.

Buyers can make offers verbally (over the phone or in person) or in writing.

An offer isn’t legally binding in England and Wales until contracts are exchanged.

If a buyer makes an offer ‘subject to contract’, this means the price can still be negotiated (eg if a survey finds a problem with the property).




You must make the offer via the estate agent, you are not meant to circumvent them as they are sole agents to the sale, the vendors will have a contract with them to that effect. The Vendors will be in breach of contract if they take offers direct.

Shaun

LVC

No an Estate Agent is not legally bound to pass on an offer and quite often they are very selective about which offers they do in fact pass on to the vendor, they will also lie and say that your offer has been refused when in reality the vendor is not even aware of it in order to bump the price up and with it their commission.

and no, a buyer has no legal obligation to try and find which agent may be marketing a property in order to make an offer on it.

The UK system is fall of flaws and only survives in its current format as most people have no idea of what they are legally able to do themselves. It still amazes me that "no legal qualifications" are actually needed in order to set yourself up as an Estate Agent in the UK and very few have any real conveyancing training.

Edit: You're quite right Shaun the contract is between the seller and the agent - however if there is not a sole agency (exclusivity) then the vendor has no legal obligation to pass a private buyer (not introduced through an agent) back to an agency and is legally entitled to manage the sale himself - it is the responsibility of one of the agents to prove that the client is 'theirs" - note not the same in the case of exclusivity where the agent has a fee agreed no matter who "finds" the buyer.

In either case there is nothing legally stopping the OP contacting the vendor direct and stating his offer - what happens next is up to the vendor : accept, accept and pass it back to the agent or don't accept.