Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

A work colleague has recently bought a 2007 Seat Leon.
He bought it from a dealer who supplied the car with a Warranty 2000 after market warranty.

After less then 2 weeks of ownership, the heater motor appears to have burnt out.

The warranty states that the following are cover:

Ventilation:
All components including heater assembly vents, tubes and controls

Air Conditioning:
All components including compressors, pumps, reservoirs.

The warranty company are refusing the repair as they see it as a wear and tear item.

Should it be covered?

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Yes, of course it 'should', but these after market warranty companies are always like this as an awful lot of people, will just say 'ah well fair enough, never mind'.

My neighbour had the same issue with the AC condenser on a VW. What he did was to go to a solicitor and get a letter written to them explaining they would be the subject of legal action if they did not abide by the terms of their warranty agreement. It cost him £35 for the letter.

Three days later he had a call from the warranty company saying they had been mistaken and it was covered after all.

PaulC72

Alternatively take it back to the dealer and say the car wasn't fit for purpose kick off at them as 2 weeks isn't that much time from picking it up.

I am guessing if the car is parked at the front of their premises they will soon fix it.

Warranty or not he still has rights.

pimmo2000

iTrader: (6)

Warranties for second hand cars are useless, they never pay out.

As Paul said, he does have rights, I'd say I heater motor failing within 2 weeks means it was on it's way when the car was sold and I'd be willing to bet a judge would agree.

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

Have written a letter to the warranty company threatening legal action if they don't pay out. Next stage is a solicitors letter.

Of course it's a car with 100k on the clock, but he paid £5k for it and that's with their finance. The dealer believed that he has done more than enough by offering to pay a small percentage towards the repair. Even their Secretary said 'well it is a used car sir and things to go wrong'.

Both the dealer and warranty company are completely ignoring the most basic consumer rights and it makes me so angry!

My mate is a bit naive with it comes to cars, I just dont like seeing him getting screwed over on something, especially when he paid over the odds.

We shall see.

Boro

iTrader: (1)

Forget the warranty company. The dealer has a legal obligation to fix the problem regardless of whether there is a independant warranty on it.

Put everything in writing, offer them the chance to repair under warranty, contact trading standards and a small claims court claim.

Explain you will have the car repaired at the main dealer, hire a car and claim other out of pocket expenses UNLESS THEY fix it at their own (usually lower) cost.

The fear of getting a huge bill from a main dealer + expenses will probably make them see sense.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Only on a modern Renault have I seen a heater fan "wear out" and that is because of poor quality. If the impeller doesn't fracture and eat away at the housing, the connectors fail and melt, if those don't fail the brushes stick or the resistor pack burns out.

Point being what actually failed on the fan? The resistor circuit, the brushes, the impeller, the resistor pack, or the bearings or connectors? You see a heater fan isn't just one part, but a collection of components assembled to make one part. What is wear and tear in my opinion is bearings and brushes, nothing else.

Even then, say the intake scuttle drain became blocked with leaves or debris, this would cause rain water to get into the fan causing corrosion on the connectors, brushes and bearings. That's not a failure but a blockage of the intake scuttle. Not wear and tear, but a fault caused by another factor.

Another case where the fan, resistor or motor has failed due to a clogged cabin (pollen) filter, the lack of air flow has caused the fan to over-speed and the lack of airflow has caused it to overheat. Not wear and tear, but a case of neglect.

What I am saying is if you can find out what part of the fan failed, and find out what caused that part to fail, you can quite easily argue if its not wear and tear.



F1: VW a/c condensors failing...very common at the moment. **** poor quality on the recent models, I've been replacing them on 3yr old cars with less than 30K on the clock (Whilst my 9yr old Golf is fine )

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

This was a 4 year old Golf.... I did think it was odd that the condenser should go on such a relatively new car! Seems cheap poor quality components are creeping in all over right now.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Yep. They are fracturing from corrosion. 100% down to poor component quality.

The aluminum used to make the condenser is quite prone at the best of times (being right at the front behind the grille), so without proper forms of protection, be it paint or anodising, then a few salted roads during winter combined with vibrations from potholes and the pressure of the refrigerant just causes them to fracture.

Maybe in a warmer climate or in a country where roads aren't gritted/salted they'd be fine, but not in the UK.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

That's pretty poor really. Funnily enough my garage owner mate showed me an interesting thing the other day. He was working on an Audi (A6 I think) and the self cancelling mechanism for the indicators had broken (car has 140K on it so not a complaint).

He had ordered a genuine Audi part but side by side the difference was shocking. The original part was solid, well finished and well manufactured (yes it had failed, but after 140K) whereas the replacement was a cheap piece of brittle tat in comparison.

He said he is seeing this sort of thing all the time and from lots of different manufacturers as you probably are. It's worrying really because you have paid for a quality product.

Make me glad I have an SL.... things break all the time, but at least the replacement parts look well made (so far) .... even if they are bloody expensive

Midlife......

iTrader: (2)

As Boro says it's actually the Dealer who caries the can.........the 3rd party warranty is an extended warranty that kicks in when the original warranty with the sale expires.
Shaun

neil-h

Not fit for purpose?! It's a car not a space heater.

mamoon2

Dealer has no legal obligation to provide any warranty at all. Only to ensure the vehicle is in "reasonable condition for age and mileage"

The car had done 100k miles, the heaters worked when he bought it, so the car was "fit for purpose".

I think the dealer is being generous offering to pay half the price of repair.

It's funny how people think they can buy a £5k car with 100k miles on and the dealer be responsible for anything that goes wrong.... If that were the case, no car dealer would risk selling anything with more than 30k miles on.

This is an obvious case of wear and tear. I'd push the warranty company harder but theres not a leg to stand on with the dealer.

If your mate wants a car that will be maintenance free, tell him to lease a brand new one.

mamoon2

Please don't listen to this guy! Not a chance this would be successful in court on a 100k mile, 7 year old car.

Boro

iTrader: (1)

This guy had been in the trade for 11 years so probably knows what he's talking about

The dealer doesn't have to give a warranty but IS liable under the Sales of Goods Act 1979 and trust me it covers alot more than you'd think.

Take legal advice and go back to the dealer for it to be fixed FOC

Boro

iTrader: (1)

The law...

The free from minor defect for a reasonable amount of time is key here.

A fault within 2 weeks is way less than is considered a reasonable amount of time and any court in the land would back that up.

scoobyross

"What I am saying is if you can find out what part of the fan failed, and find out what caused that part to fail, you can quite easily argue if its not wear and tear."

This, find a friendly garage and get them to confirm this to the warranty company and they will pay. Brother had the same problem on an electric water pump failing.

Mouser

Looks like an open and shut case if the above is correct.

The warranty companies will try to fob people off with excuses of why they will not cover a fault. Your mate should check the T&Cs of the warranty company as they will probably have a clause whereby the car must have a full service history. This was the first thing I was asked when making a claim on a heated door mirror. I replied this was not part of a service regime before telling them I had.. They still wanted proof of the service history.

As f1_fan posted, your mate should seek legal advice on what to do next. Fair enough the car is not exactly new but it does not appear cheap for what it is and he should expect a working heater especially after two weeks. The warranty company could have refused the cover if they deemed it too risky.

It would be interesting to know how much the repair will cost in relation to the cost of the car.

specialx

Wrong!!

As a dealer/trader we have to warrant cars we sell for whatever amount by law
ie the Sale of Goods Act 1979.

These were all put in place to protect the man on the street from exactly like what was said in the OP, anyone who sells to the public has to provide a level of care whether they like it or not!

Statutory rights are exactly that.

Darrell@Scoobyworx

iTrader: (5)

Its a second hand car though things can go wrong, they have offered to contribute. I see this fair, they could just say sorry nothing we can do. New cars with full warranty are a little more than 5k, there is a reason for that

mamoon2

Er, no! the Sales of goods act does not state a period of time, so we don't have to "warrant" them at all.

We do have to make sure the are of a 'Satisfactory condition for year and mileage.

I wasn't disputing the fact that any consumer has statutory rights. I was simply saying you can't buy a 7 year old car with 100k miles on and expect the dealer to foot the cost of anything that goes wrong.

There is this pre-conception that you can buy a used vehicle and the dealer has to fix any problem within 3 months. It's simply not true.

I would say the dealer is being more than fair by offering to pay half the cost

mamoon2

This man speaks sense!

Boro

iTrader: (1)

They can say what they like... but they can't avoid the law which is the Sales of Goods Act.

Ever seen the words "This does not affect your statutory rights"?

Basically, we can tell you we'll do nothing but we can't avoid the law.

mamoon2

Mate.... You are completely missing the point.

The sales of good act won't cover you on a USED 7 year old car with 100k miles on it for a part that has broken.

The ONLY thing in the act regarding used cars is this statement: "Vehicle must be in satisfactory condition for mileage and year and without any defects"

I'd say the dealer has met this condition. No defect at time of sale. No case.

Maz

iTrader: (34)

I'd broadly agree with the above.

When you buy a used motor vehicle from a trader, you enter into a legally binding contract. You are entitled to expect that the vehicle is of satisfactory quality, fit for purpose, and as described. An older vehicle with high mileage may not be as good as a newer vehicle with low mileage, but it should still be fit for use on the road and in a condition that reflects its age and price.

Traders must not mislead consumers by using phrases such as 'sold as seen' or 'no refunds'. If you buy a used vehicle from a trader online, you may have additional rights under the Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations 2000. You do not have the same legal rights if you buy a vehicle from a private seller or from an auction.

If the used vehicle is faulty, you may have a short time after buying it to reject it for a full refund. You may have other remedies such as repair or replacement. You should write to trader you bought it from, confirm the details of your complaint and the remedy you are seeking and keep copies of all correspondence. As a last resort, you may need to consider taking court action. Bear in mind that used vehicles may have some faults, but they should not be excessive. Fair wear and tear is not considered to be a fault.

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

So what the hell is the warranty supposed to cover? As anything could fail/break and the company decide it's just wear and tear.

Have written to the finance company who have already been in touch with the dealership. will see what happens.

I'm sorry but a week in and the climate control system fails is not fit for purpose. Why state it includes a 'platinum warranty' when it covers **** all. Miss selling I think you will find.

scunnered

iTrader: (1)

That's an easy question to answer;

The warranty covers the dealer for any repairs they might be liable for, and of course the big con is getting the customer to pay for it.

What covers you the customer, is the sale of goods act. Specifically part 2 section 14, and part 5 clause 48a through to 48f. You are covered by the act for 6 months.

Also,

Car dealers have a code of practice issued by OFT.
http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/rep...08/oft1241.pdf

Here's a quote
"9.6 You are liable for faults with the vehicle
that were present at the time you sold it
(where they mean the vehicle was not of
satisfactory quality), even though they
may only become apparent later on –
so called ‘latent’ or ‘inherent’ faults.
In some instances the specific fault
complained about may not have been
present at the time of purchase but the
inherent cause of the problem could have
rendered the vehicle unsatisfactory at the
time of sale".

PaulC72

From memory the min warranty a dealer has to give is 1 month (28 days) that is a legal requirement AFAIK.

Sales of goods act even on a 7 year old car with 100k should mean the aircon / heater should work - it may not blow cold but it should work - if it didn't work when the car was purchased as long as the dealer tells the purchaser and they agree about it then it's ok.
If it fails 2 weeks after purchase it's tough luck for the dealer as it's not been sold fit for purpose.

it's clear cut in my eyes

scunnered

iTrader: (1)

Try doing a bit of research. The sale of goods act may not specifically state a period of time, but case law most certainly does. That period of time being 6 months for a second hand car. Any fault which develops withing six months is deemed (by case law) to have been present at time of sale even if the fault was not apparent at the time.
The burden of proof lies with the dealer to prove the condition was not present at time of sale.

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

But that's the problem. It seems most dealers are hiding behind this now, expecting the buyer not to take it to court, where 99% of the time, the buyer would almost certainly win.