MAFFA

I'm not after some serious ICE but I would like to replace the cr*p speakers that are in there at the moment. Can anyone recommend some for the front & rear but please bear in mind that I haven't got huge amounts of cash (Probably around £100.00).

Also does anyone know the size of the fronts?? Are they 16cm like the rear??

Cheers

MAFFA

john banks

16-17cm if MY95 is the same as MY00 which IIRC it is.

All of the following three could be had for around £100. The last one IMHO would be best off the headunit as they are most sensitive. The first best off amplifier. Don't do anything with the rear speakers. Change the headunit even for a £100 CD headunit from Sony/Kenwood etc. Go for component speakers - ie separate woofer tweeter and crossover - they sound tons better as you can point the tweeter at your ears rather than your legs.

Infinity 605CS
JBL GT6.0c
Kenwood PSR70P

Look at recent posts on here for recommended websites for getting bits cheap. Or the back of Max-Power?

RB5108

Maffa, Mobile one on the way to redhill are selling Phenix Gold 6.0 that fit directly into the spacer for £99 haggle and they will sell them for £89

Bryan

selim

John,

R the rear speakers that good that they don't need changing?

john banks

No the rear speakers are rubbish. However, with good front speakers you don't NEED rear speakers at all - if they are at any decent volume they drag the soundstage backwards and make the imaging rubbish. Only exception would be if you were running Dolby 5.1. Otherwise just use the factory rears for rear fill and spend all the money on the fronts. I and many others have tried decent speakers in the back and it is a waste of time - good 6.5" in the front will provide just as much bass as most 6x9s - esp since a lot of 6x9s are built to a price rather than a quality level. The ideal is for speakers in the rear to be running at about 10% power (1/2 volume) of those in the front by powering them off the headunit and saving your amplifier channels for more useful tasks - such as big power to drive quality fronts cleanly or a sub. Infinity 605CS for £90 given 150WRMS of power sound fabulous for the money and I wouldn't mind if they were the only speakers in the car - subs included - there is plenty of bass and astonishing volume with superb clarity.

selim

Cheers John,

Off to get some infinity, this post came just at the right time as I'm just about to do an upgrade!

Miles

john banks

Please note though that 605CS need a lot of power to come alive and it could sound a bit odd if you ran them off the headunit with factory rears and fader at neutral as the rears may be louder than the fronts as factory paper cone efforts are designed for 1) cost 2) sensitivity. Aftermarkets are designed for 1) quality 2) power handling. I hope you are planning an amp - if you are not, you soon will be

MAFFA

Cheers guys,

Don't know about the Phenix Gold speakers but had a listen to some of the Infinity's in Halfords earlier and they sounded pretty damn good.

Where's the place to get them from? Mail order? Website? ICE store?

MAFFA

ScoobyDoo555

Got an MY95 5dr.....

16cm slot in all round. 16.5cms will go in the fronts, but with MDF spacers. I put JBLs in the fronts, and Kenwoods in the rears......

BIG Sub in the boot

Dan

[This message has been edited by ScoobyDoo555 (edited 30 June 2001).]

john banks

MAFFA

Again thanks.

MAFFA

ptholt

If you want some subs Maffa, i've got some i can show you at the sunday meet as im ripping my system to make way for another pram (sigh) again!

MAFFA

Okay guys i've had a look around the net at some prices & i've got a bit of a dilema.

As you know i'm not after something major but would like something that sounds better than the 80W sh*t that's in there at the moment. I'm not planning on buying & fitting an amp so I wonder if the Infinity's for £92.00 would be worth it? I've been told that the Phenix gold are also very good but without an amp would it be worth it?

I have had a look at the Sony Xplod speakers for:

XS-HL573(Component/front) £56.47
XS-F1720(3 way/rear) £23.87

These seem quite reasonable & are 180W/150W so will probably sound a lot better than the sh*t in there at the moment at a more reasonable price. I think i'll go to the sony store and try them out.

What's your views?

MAFFA

MAFFA

TOP

chiark

Even without an amp you'll notice the difference in quality of decent kit, but saying that 50 quid of sony stuff would be a massive improvement on what's in there.

If it were my money I'd not bother with rear upgrades and spend a bit more on the fronts.

Have a listen, and see what you think. I'm afraid that I've not heard much in that sort of range recently but I'll try to hear some ASAP.

john banks

Kenwoods 170mm components (727EC) I think sound quite nice for £80 but not as nice as the Infinity. These are in my Pug and would prob fit the scoob but check. I chose them because they have a higher sensitivity. Excellent are Kenwood PSR70P components - virtually as good as the Infinity, but louder off a headunit by some margin - bit more expensive though.

aherridge

If you are wanting to make the ice in the scooby good then you dont want to be messing around with kenwood etc. These are basic entry level speakers that are mass processed for company profit rather than customer quality!!

I have just had a build done in MY95 by a company in Bradford called audio images, They specialise in cars such as subarus, audis, bmws, hondas etc so they know what they are going on about.

I have got audiobahn speakers front and rear running off a 4 - channel 4 x 50 watt amp. This is linked up to a kenwood mask 10 disc changer head unit. The front speakers are ABC525X which is a 5.25" component producing 120 watts R.M.S, this gives about 250 watts realtime! Without the rear speakers the sound gets lost in the back of the car which is why you need the rear speakers to get the sound level best where you are sat which is of the front. The rear speakers i have got are AS65C which are a 6.5" 3 - way speaker again producing 120 watts R.M.S. These speakers have good frequency response but of course when you want quality it doesnt come cheap.

They provided and fitted the speakers, along with the amp i already had and sound deadened the doors for £280 and it is well worth it.

If your thinking about 6 x 9's then don't bother even though the self in the rear is cut out already for a speker that size it doesn't work out. If you are going for 6 x 9's you need to have a new self up don't ask me why its just the way it is.

Hope this can be of some help

Andy

john banks

Sorry Andy, have to disagree with almost everything you say (each to his own etc). If you look at the original post the guy mentions £100 and is not running an amp - what use is recommending £280 worth to him if he doesn't want to spend that much? The speakers discussed above are right on his budget and some actually sound quite good. I don't think Kenwood PSR70P get a Silver Award in InCars magazine if they are so poor. And reputable installers - such as Ray Smith and Edinburgh Car Audio do push these Kenwoods - they certainly have their place at these sorts of budgets. It seems a little strange that your installer didn't put in 6.5" given their superior low frequency extension compared with 5.25"? And what use is 120WRMS 250W peak when the amp only makes 50WRMS? Also Tony Nesta's site gives details of Alpine 6x9 which go straight in the back. Completely disagree about the rear speakers - it has been said many a time before that decent rear speakers in a Scoob are a waste of time. I fitted some and it sounds exactly the same on the factory ones given that the rear speakers are set so you can just perceive them being there and no louder (see below). Given equal power to the fronts it sounds all wrong. IMHO you have wasted your money on nice rear speakers and would be better putting some front speakers in with decent LF extension (which is a bit tricky from 5.25" given that 6.5" have over 50% greater cone area) and driving them with your 4 channel amp bridged to 2 channels, and fitting a sub if you want more bass. If you fit a sub and run the LPF much above 80Hz you can localise its source, so you need front speakers which can go down low enough to "meet" it otherwise you get a trough in the frequency response between 80 & 120 Hz. If you are relying on your rear speakers to produce the bass it will not sound as good as getting it low down on the fronts.

rec.audio.car.faq:
"Rear fill refers to the presence of depth and ambience in music. A properly designed system using two channels will reproduce original rear fill on the source without rear high frequency drivers. Since recordings are made in two channels, that is all you will need to reproduce it. What is captured at the recording session (coincident pair mics, Blumlein mic patterns, etc.) by a two channel mic array will capture the so called rear fill or ambience. Many of the winning IASCA vehicles have no rear high frequency drivers. Also a lot of this has to do with system tuning. If rear high frequency drivers are added, however, the power level of the rear fill speakers should be lower than that of the front speakers, or else you will lose your front-primary staging, which is not what you want (when was the last time you went to a concert and stood backwards?). The proper amount of amplification for rear fill speakers is the point where you can just barely detect their presence while sitting in the front seat. Separates are not a requirement for rear fill; in fact, you may be better of with a pair of coaxial speakers, as separates may throw off your staging."

I'm glad you're delighted with your system, but let's keep the prices sensible when someone asks for ideas.

[This message has been edited by john banks (edited 04 July 2001).]

MAFFA

Damn guys you really know how to confuse a totally stereo illiterate fella like myself. Anyway ypu'll be glad to know that I got a small bonus this month so am going to go for the Infinity 605cs fronts. I would like infinity speakers in the rear but don't know which ones would be best. How about the 655i, they're £50.00?

MAFFA

john banks

Those Infinity reference coaxs 655i would probably fit nicely in the front or the back, but obviously you want the 605cs for the front so that you have the separate tweeters and nice supplied crossovers.

What headunit do you have? Bear in mind the above opinion re rear speakers - why not try with the factory speakers left in the rear - new rear speakers are a lot of heartache to fit and really not worth the money or the time. Save your time and money for at least a 2 channel amp to run the Infinitys at the front, and if you can afford it a 4 channel to give you more upgrade options and more power. See Greg's thread for discussion of £100 amps. However, if you still have the factory headunit, change the fronts and the headunit. Considering you are on a budget, even a Sony £100 CD headunit would be a massive improvement over factory. Now, anyone any better ideas for £190 than Infinity 605CS and an entry level CD headunit? Really depends on what you want to spend now and whether you will upgrade later.

MAFFA

At the moment i'm running a Kenwood KRC258. It's at least 4 years old with 4x25w & i'm thinking of changing anyway. I know a guy selling a Sony with a 10 disc changer for around £120.00 if he's still got it? That if I remember was 4x45w & a lot newer & better. By the way if I get this lot how much do car audio shops normally charge for fitting as i'm trying to compare costs of buying on the net & getting someone to do it or buying it from a shop that does free fitting.

Just looking through the back of fast car magazine & you can get 4 channel amps for around £75-£100 & are usually 4x80w. Would this be enough or would I need more?

MAFFA

john banks

The Sony could be quite nice. However, if you were fitting it yourself and not installing an amp you would save yourself a lot of wiring hassle by just going for a CD headunit with no changer - it is a 5 min job to fit - remove old, plug in new and push! I did it outside the dealer five minutes after picking up the car

Some dealers will only fit kit they supply. As I said the headunit is very easy. Front speakers are a BIT more involved but not that difficult. Unless you are prepared for some fun, you may wish to leave a CD changer or an amp to someone else to fit - but I managed it and am crap at DIY, so I am sure you could if you have the time and inclination.

Re the amps in the Max Power type mags - whilst I am a cheapskate, I would draw the line at some of the offerings therein. Quoted power figures in ads are a bit useles - you need to find the make and model and find out from a brochure or website (try google.com with the model number) the following:

Continuous rated power (RMS) all channels driven 20Hz-20KHz (-1dB) at x% THD at supply voltage y volts...
where x is ideally quite low like <0.1% and y is either 12 or 14.4 volts (14.4 makes a fair bit more power and is based on engine running). You may not get all of this info, but most of it. Power figures quoted without this sort of info will be peak figures which are usually double the RMS figures and more so for the very dodgy brands. Posh brands are vastly underquoted.

Just compare like with like and go for a (semi)-decent brand. IMHO, you are safe with Alpine, Kenwood, Pioneer, Sony, JBL etc. You are verging towards dodgy with Jensen (although I have one driving a sub and it is capable) and getting dodgy with Longmill, Legacy and ones you haven't heard of. If it is Rockford Fosgate or Phoenix Gold or Genesis or MTX - then it won't be that cheap.

The Infinity 605CS sound good with 100WRMS at least - that means 200Watts per channel in Max Power money. They are a bit reluctant with 50WRMS. (headunits only really give about 12to 15 WRMS even though they say 4x50 etc). One option is a 4 channel amp bridged to 2 channels running Infinitys. A 4x50W amp (or 4x100 Max power) will bridge to roughly 150Wx2 (300Wx2) and is ideal for these speakers.

If you don't want to take over the boot with a sub and give these speakers some good power you may be very pleasantly surprised with the results - I was delighted.

Remember also, double power does not mean double the volume - you need about 10 times the power for that, so 150 Watts to each front channel is not as over the top as it might sound, but enough to redline the engine and not notice

MAFFA

Okay i've now been looking at CD head units and you can get some pretty decent flip front ones for around £100-£130. One question though - What are pre-outs & what are they used for?

MAFFA

john banks

Pre outs are outputs to connect to an amp. They are "pre" because they avoid the power amplifier stage of the headunit and are cleaner.

They usually look like phono sockets - to connect up just like a domestic CD player to an amp with a phono lead.

The number of preouts is relevant - 1 2 or 3 are the usual variants - they are in pairs for left and right - i.e. front l/r, rear l/r, subwoofer l/r. At this price you will get one or two pairs - two pairs allow you to adjust the level of the two pairs of amp channels from the fader control on the headunit (usually - as long as the preouts are "fading"). However, one pair is not a disaster as you can usually set the levels independently at the amp using only one pair of inputs for two pairs of channels (ie a 4 channel amp). However, a slight nuance of some amps when you do this is that the levels of the two pairs of channels cannot be independently adjusted - certainly some Kenwood amps are like this which is surprising. A lot of amps have a pass through to allow you to "daisy chain" other amps on.

[This message has been edited by john banks (edited 05 July 2001).]

aherridge

Sorry guys i was just trying to give some advice from the experience that i had on the ice situation. Dont get me wrong kenwood are good but for the purest, crispest sound you have to look at something a little more upmarket eg hand made speakers such as audiobahn, petros etc. The infinities however sound best on your budget. i had some 6x9s in my old car and they sounded good.

As for head units you should be able to pick up a decent sony / panasonic for £120 with 4x45w output. Checkout back of max power etc and have a flick through some of the manufacturers web sites also.

Sorry about the confusion before

andy

rockin'Ru

Andy,there's no confusion man.IMO,Audiobahn sucks.Period.Yes I'm talking from experiance.WAYYY over rated.I had the ABC600 comp set a while back and the xovers are total junk.They claimed 140 watts rms;I gave it to them;DEAD!The tweeters were recieving much lower fqz's than 3500hz.NASTY.They now rest where they belong;on my scrap metal pile.Lesson learned.
MAFFA,John Banks has really got things covered here,I'd just like to throw in that you can get a Pioneer head unit pretty cheap that has dual rca outputs.One is for the front channels and the second can be used as either the rear channels OR a subwoofer channel.The hu will give you total control over the sub(or subs)as well as high pass filters for the fronts which can take away the "muddy bass" sounds in a normal door install.
Just my 2 cents gents...

MAFFA

Okay guys here's the deal. I went & did a bit of net shopping & opted for the CD head unit (multichanger can come later if neede). I thought i'd stick with Kenwood at they do the flip front at a reasonable price & also the changeover would be easy peasy!! So I bought:

Kenwood KDC5090R £151.05
Infinity 605cs £92.36 (Front)
Infinity 655i £50.02 (rear)

I haven't opted for the amp yet as i've heard these speakers running from just the head unit & they will do fine without for the moment.

I'm sure you'll agree that i've not done bad price wise. All from

MAFFA

HEEELLLPP!!!

Infinity 655i's are 16.5cm & there's only enough room in the rear shelf for 16cm speakers. What do I do? Are there spacers available or is there something else I can do?

Also can anyone tell me that the 605cs's (16.5cm) will slot in nicely in the doors before I start taking my doors appart!!

MAFFA

steve_s

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by john banks:
<B>The Sony could be quite nice. However, if you were fitting it yourself and not installing an amp you would save yourself a lot of wiring hassle by just going for a CD headunit with no changer - it is a 5 min job to fit - remove old, plug in new and push! I did it outside the dealer five minutes after picking up the car

Some dealers will only fit kit they supply. As I said the headunit is very easy. Front speakers are a BIT more involved but not that difficult. Unless you are prepared for some fun, you may wish to leave a CD changer or an amp to someone else to fit - but I managed it and am crap at DIY, so I am sure you could if you have the time and inclination.

Re the amps in the Max Power type mags - whilst I am a cheapskate, I would draw the line at some of the offerings therein. Quoted power figures in ads are a bit useles - you need to find the make and model and find out from a brochure or website (try google.com with the model number) the following:

Continuous rated power (RMS) all channels driven 20Hz-20KHz (-1dB) at x% THD at supply voltage y volts...
where x is ideally quite low like &lt;0.1% and y is either 12 or 14.4 volts (14.4 makes a fair bit more power and is based on engine running). You may not get all of this info, but most of it. Power figures quoted without this sort of info will be peak figures which are usually double the RMS figures and more so for the very dodgy brands. Posh brands are vastly underquoted.

Just compare like with like and go for a (semi)-decent brand. IMHO, you are safe with Alpine, Kenwood, Pioneer, Sony, JBL etc. You are verging towards dodgy with Jensen (although I have one driving a sub and it is capable) and getting dodgy with Longmill, Legacy and ones you haven't heard of. If it is Rockford Fosgate or Phoenix Gold or Genesis or MTX - then it won't be that cheap.

The Infinity 605CS sound good with 100WRMS at least - that means 200Watts per channel in Max Power money. They are a bit reluctant with 50WRMS. (headunits only really give about 12to 15 WRMS even though they say 4x50 etc). One option is a 4 channel amp bridged to 2 channels running Infinitys. A 4x50W amp (or 4x100 Max power) will bridge to roughly 150Wx2 (300Wx2) and is ideal for these speakers.

If you don't want to take over the boot with a sub and give these speakers some good power you may be very pleasantly surprised with the results - I was delighted.

Remember also, double power does not mean double the volume - you need about 10 times the power for that, so 150 Watts to each front channel is not as over the top as it might sound, but enough to redline the engine and not notice [/quote]

Just a quick one john, whilst I appreciate the infinty 6 1/2" can handle alot of power I disagree with you saying they can handle up to 150 watts rms I tried running my amp brigded - a philips dap 6040 (this must be getting close to 150 watts rms)and they started to bottom out ie. cone moving too far.(equalisation flat no loudness enhancement) I thought maybe amp clipping so checked the o/p on a scope - signal smooth as a babys bottom. so either your amps aren't kicking out as much as you think they are or you got some extra special speakers.

just my 2 penneth steve..

rockin'Ru

I should probably keep my mouth shut right now seeing I'm in the doghouse right now(sorry Nick )but your assumtion of Kenwood amps is pretty acurate.It's another brand that gives it's rated rms power at 14.4 volts,which most cars never even reach,so they're labeled "weak".(here anyways)