JonW

Hmmm, been installing my Infinitys in the car and did one side then started on the other, eventually pulled the crossover out the box and its different than the other side!!!!

Kit is 6.02CS, One crossover was 2.01XP and the other a 2.02XP... I assume they should be the same to get the sound right!

These are quite different units too, the .01 has 7 connections and the 02 has 6 and internally they are totally different componants on the boards, the 02 has lots more in there....

{sigh} so is it back to my supplier, what do the collective think?

Jon.

[This message has been edited by JonW (edited 03 May 2001).]

[This message has been edited by JonW (edited 03 May 2001).]

rockin'Ru

Give'em HELL!

chiark

Something's not quite right there...

JonW

Yep my thoughts exactly and thats what ive done, they are rightly concerned and say they will sort it rightaway and a new 02 XP crossover is on it way to me...

I was most unimpressed when I found out about this and mentioned this in my mail to them. They think someone swapped the crossover with a customer at some point who had an old one and then when the replacement came into stock it got put in the box without being checked, still looks bad on them tho. I will keep u posted on the outcome of this...

Jon.

rockin'Ru

Glad to hear you're not going to get the run-around.Now all you have to do is hurry up and wait
Hope someone's getting a spanking for this
Do you know what amp you might get?

JonW

Mornin Rockin'!

I think they've got it sorted now and are sending me another crossover today, should be here tomorrow. Phew.

No thoughts on Amp as yet, what I want is an amp and a sub but want to have a stealth install and not break the bank, any ideas?

rockin'Ru

GREAT! Glad the wait won't be long.
As for an amp,yes,I've got ideas!LOTS!
I was thinking the Sony XM-604EQX.It's a 4 channel amp that could give you 60 watts x 2 for the fronts and 150 x 1 for a sub.It has a built in 5 band eq for both channels and high and low xovers too.
I'm not sure of your budget or what these amps can be had for there.It's just one opinion.
Steve

john banks

Rockin' you gone all conservative in your old age?? I thought that it would be 1 megawatt per channel. Thinking of you today when I put my window down at 70mph - I could still hear the wind but music still easily listenable to - not too bad for 450WRMS? If you are not a complete basshead Jon, you may want to TRY what a powerful amp does with just your front speakers - you can get a surprising amount of bass.

rockin'Ru

Well,he wants a stealth install,an amp for the components up front,and maybe a sub.The 4 channel amp would be stealth;one unit.It's capable of both tasks in less space.
It would be plenty of power for the system he wants to build,and still not reach those comp's rms power.He can add the sub later if he wants,or run the rear channels from it(if he wants rear fill).With all the goodies on that amp,he'd be busy for a while dialing in the system
Sorry John,I'm not trying to get everyone into the rediculous power levels that my system CAN produce(but doesn't because the gains are way down),I'm just trying to point out that higher power will bring both spl AND sq.The transients are strong and clear,compared to a weak amp or hu.
This is only my opinion.

KF

And another thing:

I have the 60.2's which are great, and have the 6 connector crossovers.

I too need some amplification: What do you guys reckon to the Alpine 307 4ch amp?

Also what does the 3db / 0db switch in the crossover do? I take it that it attenuates the tweeter by the given ammount? Got no manual...

KF.

chiark

The 3dB is indeed tweeter attenuation.

For amplifier, what sort of money are you thinking of? I'd recommend the Caliber range, as they're good value for money.

Nick.

KF

Cheers again Chiark.
I saw the 307 at £180 or so. Thought that was pretty good VFM. I was thinking of an Alpine Head unit / changer, so could leverage the Bass Engine and AiNet stuff.
If there was a compelling reason to go to another manuf. I would be spending about £200.
Cheers
KF.

JonW

FYI my new crossover arrived by first class post today, the supplier (decided they should remain nameless)have told me to send the other one back without postage and they will sort it when it arrives, which is decent of them. Faith is restored in them as they've been great at sorting out this problem.

And onto amps / subs.... ;-)

Rockin, where would I stealthly install this amp then? sounds like amping and decent cable would be the next stage...

Off to fit my new xOver in a bit and my secon lot of Dynamat Extreme has just turned up... its all go here.. poor wallet.. ;-P

John B - Nah not a total basshead so will start with amping what Ive got, seems the best plan to me.

KF - Cheers for info, if you need me to scan the manual (crap tho it is) I can do that for you....

So... should I unplug the rears (std Scoob crap units) at this time or just fade totally to the front and leave them on?

Jon.

KF

Jon,
Cheers for the offer. I just found out that they are online in pdf format.
KF.

john banks

Rockin you are totally right. To imply that you are a basshead is a high compliment indeed cos I love the stuff and if you have SQ too then you are a god. The fact is you have more/better toys than me, so I have to slag you off Dexter looks nice on that website.

Jon, the supplier of your kit is top-notch - I have only good things to say about them. I know who it is cos he emailed me after you had told him about your posts on the board... he was saying that he was looking into stocking the Autoacoustics Impreza sub box I mentioned in another post... and he said their price was a bit steep and he was hoping to come in lower. It has to be said these days that you can really tell the quality of an outfit by the way they deal with their mistakes - I say this cos mistakes seem to happen all the time with everything anyone ever does for me!

The issue of the rear speakers is an interesting one.

SOME CRAPPY IDEAS I HAVE BEEN GIVEN:

Scooby dealer Parts Manager told me to put some of his £40 35WRMS VDO Daytron 130mm speakers in the back (to replace £80 50WRMS Kenwood 160mm!) and then turn the treble right up which he insisted would not affect my preouts, and when I insisted they did "You've got it wired wrong". I have to say what beautiful imaging I would get with a shed load of amplified treble from the back...so I'll not be listening to him then.... Another car audio dealer told me to amp the backs and not the fronts (LOL).

FROM MY LIMITED TINKERING:

Tried disconnecting, removing, replacing, amping and not amping rear speakers with tweeter connected and disconnected. The best sounding option I have found is to leave then connected to the head unit with the tweeter still connected. Then amp the fronts and the sub so they are much louder. Sounds a bit fuller than no rear speakers, less boomy than speakers removed, and far less muddy than speakers amplified. Make up some leads and faff around with a multi channel amp and see what comes out. In the end I had the spare amp channels to amp the back, but the power was wasted and much better used to bridge the channels for the fronts.

rockin'Ru

Jon,you can mount an amp almost any place you like,except upside down.If you're only amplifying the front speakers,it could be mounted under one of the front seats.It would give you a much shorter run of wires and help eliminate noise.Just make sure there's enough room(about 1" above the amp)for it to "breathe".And make sure to properly set the gains before you mount it 'cause it'll be a bugger to get to under the seat
I only suggested a 4 channel amp for the sake of this idea.If you decide on a sub later,you'll need to do an amp install all over again.But I too know all about the money crunch.It's taken me years to get what I have.
And on the rear fill question,again,that's totally up to you and what you enjoy.Some say it's just plain "wrong"to have it,but I disagree.Others say it has to be equal to the front level,and I don't totally go for that either.I have a Pioneer HU that has an FIE (front imaging enhancer) that cut's the rear speakers fqz off at 250hz.It simulates the echo of a concert stadium.I'd like it a little higher but works fine for now.
You could run your rear speakers from your HU and add a choke coil to them of the proper value and if you don't like it,fade to front.
Hope I didn't lose you here...just one possibility.
Oh yeah,John Banks,my toys may be bigger and better than yours,but it in no way makes me a god of any kind.It actually makes me a lunatic with a fetish that'll have me in hearing-aids before my time if I'm not careful Truth is,I don't normally run much more wattage than you do.But the bone jarring is just a click away if "needed".I remember a trip to the city last year with a friend that was wild.We were on the highway going around 65-70 mph,both windows down,thrashing on Def Leppard HARD!We got passed by a tractor-trailer and we both just looked at each other and started laughing because we couldn't hear a sound from that truck...you're a doctor,you know what those kinds of decibles can do over time.Hope RF or someone starts making cd quality hearing aids!
Cheers Gentlemen
Steve

john banks

Maybe by the time you are getting hearing loss we will have cochlear implants that could receive a digitial signal transmitted by radio frequency from a "source" (whatever that may be) - no need for speakers or amps or anything then? But then if you've fried your cochlea we will have to implant directly into your brain? Cool? - possibly not I don't know.
Talking of going active - you were talking about insertion loss of passive crossovers - given that the woofer takes most of the power (95% ish I think?) what would be the outcome if I used my 4 channel - 2 channels for the tweets, 2 for the woofers - I would only be giving the woofers 50WRMS compared with their share of 150WRMS minus passive crossover insertion loss. Which is more - the 50W clean and obviously no clipping of the tweets or the share of the passive 150W bridged? Is it overkill to use a 50WRMS amp channel for each tweeter - or would it just ensure they never clipped but fried first? If I do this, recommendations for active crossover - the amp has already 12dB/oct low OR high pass - if I left this high pass @ 80Hz I would then need to split the rest at say 3.5KHz (I would check with my components what was required). Am I right in saying that most active crossovers contain an op-amp? - what would be the effect on a line level signal of using suitable capacitor and coils? Any suggestions on a suitable active crossover?

rockin'Ru

John,the power loss is not really noticable at the power input levels you have.It's when you put a hand full of watts up against a passive xover that can handle 200 watts that the sound quality suffers.The big bonus with active xovers is the tunability they offer.You can change the xover points at will to adjust for different recordings and such.My HU has high and low pass xovers built in and is pure joy with the 3-way comps I set up.
I used to play drums in school and was always around the school band and such,so I know exactly how each individual instrument sounds,and I've come very close to achieving that sq in my car with my present equipment and it didn't cost me an arm and a leg.I can't say enough about the diff between 2-way and 3-way comps.And I'm only using passive xover's.
I'm rambling again.To answer your question;you won't hear much of a difference spl wise going with an active with your amp,but the xover itself will net you more control and hence sq enhancment.
Right now all I can think of is the Pioneer CD-635 xover.It's half DIN sized so you can mount it over your hu for easy access.There are many brands which will do.Audio Control is another good brand to look into.
Think you could mount a 4" midrange in your doors?

JonW

Cheers Guys, lost me a bit in the last few posts but then I think you stepped up a gear... :-)

So under the seat seems the best way to go for stealthly placing an amp then... Assume my installer will have no issues getting the cabling to/from there.

Tried to check out prices for the Sony XM-604EQX, but cant find it an any of the UK sites ive tried. Any other recomended amps?
However, would I be limiting myself by not having the Sub channel? also with the Infinitys being power hungry is 60w gonna be enuff? Sony HU says 4x40 and thats not driving them that well...

John - Totally agree with you re sorting of mistakes is true measure of customer service and as I said faith is 110% restored in this company, I would not hesitate to recomend them (in fact I already have elsewhere on this board).

Rear speakers - Interesting you mention Scooby parts mangers £40 35WRMS VDO Daytron 130mm speakers, IIRC these are the 1620 units and about £13 from Edworthys... Quality audio methinks at that price... ;-P although I take Nick's point of many moons ago that just upgrading to these from the standard units would be a vast improvement!
Think I will leave the rears disconnected at the mo a they distort badly when I crank the power up, is it worth getting better units and thrying this again, or am I into good money after bad scenarios with that and better getting the amp and upgrading the cable?

Jon.

rockin'Ru

Hello again Jon.Yes,you'll be limiting yourself without the sub channel.You won't be able to run a sub at all without another amp.
If you don't want a sub right away,all you'll need is a good 2 channel amp,and there are many good brands available,but keep the Infinity's rms power rating in mind when buying.Yes,60 watts rms would run them ok,but not as well as 100 watts rms.The extra power will make it a little louder,but it will make them sound much better too.Those comps may provide all the bass you want with the right power and you won't want to install a sub after all.
For brands you cane check out MTX,Rockford Fosgate,Sony,Infinity,Kenwood,Pioneer,USAcoustics, the list goes on and on.Just shy away from the cheaper stuff like Jensen,Boss,and Profile if you want sq.

JonW

Mornin Rockin!

Think I may be better to spend a bit more and at least have a system I can upgrade if I need it... I'm starting to see how ICE can get addictive...

Is there a guide anywhere telling me whats what about amps, like why do some say 2/3/4 chanel and should I be looking for peak power or something else and how do I know how to connect the chanels together etc. Numpte questions but gimme time... I'll get there...

Jon.

john banks

As an example my Kenwood 848 amp is 4/3/2 channel which means it has left and right channels times two. Each pair CAN take a separate pair of RCA inputs. You can also pair together "bridge" left and right on either or both sets giving you the 4/3/2 combos. If you bridge channels, you are "effectively" subjecting each half of the bridge to 2 ohm load conditions, so it will run hotter, probably give more distortion. However, with my amp I get a fairly clean sounding claimed 150WRMS (3x what you get with one channel but only using 2 channels - the extra comes from the 2 ohm loading) which is great for driving 90WRMS Infinity speakers as it is effortless. I have had no overheating or cut out problems and it doesn't really even feel very warm. This amp is rated at 100Wx4 "peak" 50Wx4 RMS at less than 0.1% THD (total harmonic distortion) all channels driven off 14.4V supply. Ignore the peak, look at the RMS and always check the THD is similar to or less than above. They can cheat by quoting power at higher distortion, driving only some of the channels or with a 14.4V supply (more honestly would quote at 12V which gives about 2/3 of the power - 14.4 is reasonable with the vehicle running).

To physically bridge an amp you usually put an input into just the left or right input and flick an appropriate switch. Then usually connect + of one output to the speaker and - of THE OTHER OUTPUT to the speaker. What is happening is the second channel is doubling the voltage to the speaker. The instructions are usually pretty clear and even printed on the amp itself.

I may not have the technical details "precise" but this is the general gist. Hope it is at the right level for you. Please ask us for clarification.

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