john banks

They say my Impreza will arrive real soon now! I am trying to sort out the ICE. My budget is about £500 for bits, but I'll need more for wiring, soundproofing etc. I'll probably get an installer to put it in for me as I don't have time and am not too hot with MDF although OK at the wiring.
I have got prices of about £500 inc VAT for CD changer package with KRC578R cassette receiver 45Wx4 pk 28WRMSx4 with 10 disc CD changer & remote control, KAC728 amp 2x150WRMS at 2ohm 14.4V (is this a realistic operating voltage?) if I pair the F+R channels along with 4x220W pk 4 ohm speakers 6x9 for the back (KFC6908) and 160mm for the front doors (KFCHQ167DB). The mounting depth for the front speakers is 59.5mm and from what I have seen from a search these should fit with a little work.

Questions:
1. Is this any good?
2. Any better suggestions?
3. I presume I could splice all four head unit speaker connections together to give 112WRMS for a sub at a later date? Would this sound crap?
4. Would I get significantly better quality (at higher cost) by using a four channel amp or is it reasonable to put the two left speakers in parallel into one channel (similar with the right) and therefore run the amp at 2 ohms and get more power or am I being a lazy cheapskate?

Please advise this ICE virgin. Many thanks, John.

chiark

John,

1. Sounds OK (see below)
2. Wouldn't bother with an amp for now and spend more on head unit or speakers (see below )
3. No. It don't work. You'll destroy the amp in your head unit
4. Ampifiers produce more distortion when driven into 2 ohms as opposed to 4, but you get more power. With a 2 channel amp, you'll lose the ability to fade between front and back, and giving the back the same power at the front will guarantee knackering your stereo image in my experience.

I'd strongly advise spending your 500 quid on decent front speakers, head unit and changer: that's all. Budget around 125 for speakers and the rest for the rest. You should be able to move up the kenwood range with that amount of hard cash and get a good deal. My unit (minidisc PS970R) has 3 pre-outs; see if you can get one with 3 pre-outs too as this gives you a remote bass level control (this has been one of my "requirements" over the years).

For front speakers, you may want to listen to a few different brands before you splash out. It depends what sort of music you like, and how you like it played. I've gone for CD Technologies speakers which are very neutral. Some of the Kenwood stuff can sound good in some cars (100 quid components image brilliantly in my wife's saxo but never sounded that good in any of *my* cars!), and awful in others. Get recommendations, as for 100 notes plus you should get good/very good sound.

I'd seriously forget about an amp for the moment. I ran 4 speakers off my head unit for about 6 weeks until I could be bothered to start the install of my existing kit and the sound is actually not too bad.

Personally, I'd drop the idea of buying rear speakers too. Try the originals and see what you think. For me, they were fine as they reinforced the bass from the front and didn't drag the soundstage back. I have actually replaced them with damn good units now that I find I'm not using at all due to my front speakers being extremely "ambient" or whatever the word is.

I'd definitely go for a 4 (or 5) channel amp if you do decide at a later date that you want one. This way, you can leave the rears off the head unit, run fronts off 2 channels and bridge the other two channels to run a sub. You're given ultimate flexibility...

For amp recommendations, I bought a Soundstream Reference 604 from a guy I found on ebay based in the states (craga is his tag). Drop him a mail and he'll sort you out. He had 230 of the things, and I got one for 226 quid all in, shipped (and duty paid unfortunately). I bought another with a friend to save on shipping, so you may want to look at that...

Keep it simple, get good kit to start with, and you'll find yourself pleased with the results. See if you can find some people who will let you listen to their kit in their car, as you'll find a style that you like. There may be a gathering coming up in your area soon?

Adam M

never connect headunit speaker output wires together, it will go pop, unless it is designed to be bridgable in that way, which i doubt.

all personal aste. I would never insult an impreza by putting in rear speakers let alone 6 by 9s. If you intend to add a sub ever, then dont bother with them you dont need the bass from them. sound deasdening a good idea especially in these cars.

I would ask yourself if you really need cassette acilities as these days, it is pretty much obselete. Buy either a cd headunit or minidisc if you have recording facilities. the other potential is an mp3 player.

I would also advise getting pioneer over kenwood everytime, but again, that is from the benefit of my experience, others will say otherwise.

I would recommend going to edworthys.co.uk

Very reasonable from what I see due to internet sales volume price is significantly lower than elsewhere.

good luck

john banks

Thanks for the replies guys. I won't fry the head unit then. I can see what you mean about triple output and 4 channel amps for flexibility and control. In comparing head units in Halfords (aargh!) using reasonable speakers, I could discern no quality difference between 5080 and 9080 head units although they were not through an auxillary amp and certainly the 9080 would have more control if they were. Changer packages with tape head units seem cheaper than CD head units but otherwise look identical. I have no tapes at all and use all CD or CD-R. Looked at Edworthys and was a good informative site but I am looking at 25-30% cheaper from Advanced Digital Solutions who advertise in Top Gear. The RRP of the front speakers I am thinking of is about £130 and they are top of Kenwood's range in that size (160mm). A pair of 6x9s from middle of the Kenwood range is only £50 (surely better than factory fitted or should I have none at all?) If I am going to get rear speakers what do you recommend? Maybe I can talk the wife into a higher budget!!!??!! Soundstream Reference 604 - I am downloading the manual and will have a read - thanks.

John.

chiark

Well, I ignored Adam's advice and put speakers in the back. Result: they're not used. They're not even connected up. The fronts that I have give off loads of whateveritscalled and as a result I don't need rear speakers. I may connect them up, faded out completely, for passengers in the rear. There again I may not.

If you don't listen to tapes and have CD-R, in dash CD is the obvious choice. Or just get a very good in-dash player with the option to add changer later on?

Pioneer vs Kenwood: I've always had (high end) Kenwood, so am biased. Adam will have a very good set of ears as he changes equipment much more often than me, so you may want to take his advice. Alternatively, listen to them both and see if you can tell a difference. (This will be difficult in a shop...). Don't underestimate how important usability is in chosing your head unit. If it's full of fiddly buttons it'll be a nightmare to use on the move.

Again, can't say it enough, I wasted time with rear speakers only to find that I didn't want them. Leave the originals in there and power them up if you want. You may find that they reinforce the bass quite nicely until you get a sub. If you do find you want more, tell the wife you "found 50 quid down the back of the sofa" for a set of 6x9s. You may have "fun" fitting them . I wouldn't be told on the subject of rear speakers, but have changed my mind now.

john banks

Been looking a bit more and talked the wife into putting up the budget to £800. We listened again to a Kenwood head unit in (halfords!) with our chosen speakers (and CDs) and the volume had to be on 20 before it was remotely interesting. Above that it distorted. I want it to sound like the monster floorstanders in our lounge! If I didn't bother with rear speakers or at most connected the head unit to the factory ones at low level for fill then I could power amp the fronts with a med/high pass filter and power a sub with a low pass filter. Since I can do all this from the amp is there any point in having Kenwood's System E's or D.B.S?

Also on the subject of Subs - in the Kenwood catalogue it has recommended enclosure sizes for each of the subs - they are all different! I like the idea of buying a ready trimmed sub box - if you are slightly out on the size is it horrendous? (are all the resonant frequencies different and is it a problem in real life if it says 310x290X330mm and you get 12" cubed?)

I listened to Pioneer units in the shop and it seemed to be all swimming dolphins and higher price Not a proper audition I agree.

The soundstream amps look good from reading the manual, but so do the Kenwoods. There's a nice looking 5 channel one I can get for £190 with 4 ohm <0.08 THD "full bandwidth" 4x40WRMS + 120WRMS continuous with adjustable low & high pass filters. Thoughts?

Thanks again for all your help.

[This message has been edited by john banks (edited 14-07-2000).]

Adam M

As always, I stand by my previous postings on kenwood amps.

I know people will disagree with me, and I understand, but my personal experience has always disuaded me from mainstream amps,

mainstream anything to be honest. I actually hate pioneer etc. Have pioneer system because I got the tv very cheaply and it was the largest din tv available.

I have always gone for becker equipment until now. Went off them when they were not making the profit they used to and headed for the larger market. The only dedicated head unit for playing cds I would consider is a macintosh, but at 2k they aren't gonna sell many.

Anyhoo,

if you can be arsed, go for a make who are famous for their amps such as phoenix gold and most definitely soundstream. Recommended once that someone search the internet and order from america, apparently it worked out cheaper and he is happy. If that man is present, please let himslef be known. You can even buy second hand in the sates with ease from ebay.com

Complaints about warranty are bollocks. Just send the kit back to the states and it will be honoured there. May cost £30, but I have never had a quality amp go wrong before.

The sound you are looking for unfortunately is virtually unnattainable. Cars are unfortunately acoustically pants, but the amplifier is going to keep you furthest from that sound. Get the headunit you like the most, (preferably cd) but dont bother listening in shops and pay no attention to figures. In america the figures are dsigned to misled you to allow powerful amps into lower competition categories. In a shop, you have a cabinet behind the speaker which immediately improves bass response. You also have enormous vibration from the surrounding stands. You also are driving the sound into an enormous showroom and on top of that you are getting some signature from every oter speaker in the room. In short it will sound nothing like it will sound in your car.

If you can give us an idea of the type of sound you like, it would be easier to suggest some speakers, but please put all the money into the fronts.

I have heard a lot of components in my time, and depending on my music prefernce at the time I could favour any one of 6 different set ups. so we need more info.

Sub box figures are again normally rubbish. The parameters quoted with the speakers can hive you a guide as to where to start but often once it is built it is difficult to know the effect of a few mm here or extra speaker wadding there. Most installers get to a point of getting it roughly right, sticking it in and if it sounds nice then not changing it.

If perfection is that important to you then you will need at least one third octane eqs which will up your bills significantly so just forget those unless you get "the bug".

Every car has a different acoustic siganture related to the damping characteristcs of each panel and seat and carpet etc. you can put a sub in the car, that makes a great hifi sub and it will sound attrocious and vice versa.

There are general rules, that experienced people learn about making a sub sound good but it takes time. Theory exists and it is v complicated but it doesn't always work out.

For example theoretically, isobaric 10 inch subs (in a push pull arrangement) cannot sound good and there are people who believe in theory who will not attempt to make them sound good. For interests sake, i have 10 inch isobaric subs in my car and have only been happier with one other sub arrangement of all those I have seen/tried.

Forgive my waffle, it is almost lunchtime and the longer I type for the less I have to sit twiddling my thumbs contemplating food .



[This message has been edited by Adam M (edited 14-07-2000).]