strong

I've just upgraded my bog standard audio (UK model) and thought I would share my experiences since I replaced the front speakers yesterday morning and the head unit yesterday evening.

The main reason for this post is to refute the claims that the standard speakers aren't that bad - well they're absolute ****e.

My local audio shop fitted a set of JBL GT6.0mk2 components (£130 rrp, £90 from

ChrisB

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>To test Lee's line: "when you turn up the volume and it distorts, all those who think its the speakers..sit down you're out"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not being an ICE head, can somebody explain this theory to me in more detail (words of two syllable's or less please!)

Chris.



[This message has been edited by ChrisB (edited 30-01-2000).]

strong

Chris, check out this thread from 2 weeks ago where Lee made the comment:

strong

I'm not attacking Lee and my words were certainly not in that tone. Do you want a BBS were everyone just accepts the first thing posted? The attitude seen on this BBS many times where people get jumped on because they disagree with someone else
is getting on my **** and now I'm even less inclined to take time out to post something I think will be of benefit to others.

Lee chastised someone in the earlier thread for saying that changing the front speakers was a good first step. Judging by his post this was not based on experience with his Scooby. Mine IS from experience, so I thought I should put the record straight.

Yes my experience may be extraordinary but how am I supposed to know that?

robski

Finally got round to putting my head unit in(well got my mate who fits car audio) to do it for me actually.
Difference totally amazing. I agree with Lee, Philips unit is ****e.

Speakers this weekend hopefully.

One question tho, for some reason, it seems impossible to run the front speakers with no sound from the rears, just seems like the low(bass) thats being partially divereted to the rears tho. Is there some kind of crossover in there somewhere (MY99)?

Better speakers require more power. Not always, but usually to allow them to handle more power, and to improve quality they have a lower sensitivity. (bigger magnets, coils etc etc)

robski

Adam M

Why are you attacking Lee when you only have the benefit of experience of one car? The guy is only trying to help out others from what he has learnerd!

It sounds to me like in your case you are lucky. It is quite possible you have an exceptionally good standard head unit with a beatifully clean power supply. You could also have a specially good alternator which is pumping in a perfect 13.8 volts dc, which would greatly improve the sound output of the head units built in amplifiers.

In my experience having modified the ice myself on well over 100 cars and having seen many times more than that, I would say that Lee is right.

Crap in crap out, obvously the crap supplied by your standard head unit was particularly good crap!

Both upgrades will improve the sound obviously but you didn't try your new head unit with your standard speakers, so you dont actually know if the improvement you realised is as good as it could have been.

Wait till you buy a separate amp and then see how much better again the sound becomes and then you will appreciate why upgrading the head unit is a valid first step. It has much greater gimmick value than speakers aswell.

robski

Calm down guys!

From my experience you always get a better improvement from the headunit than speakers, but you are spending more money.

robski

Lee

Blimey ! I'm in trouble

The posts I had replied to were for MY99/00 cars..obviously I have direct experience on this model and yes the speakers were okay. It is quite possible you have different speakers or tired speakers in your car. Although I think they are "okay" the build quality is questionable and I daresay a bit of damp would make them sound a lot worse.

I take no offence and would rather people speak what they mean than sit on the fence.

However I still agree with my post concerning MY99/00 cars. The head unit has to be the first to go.

regarding the "better speakers benefit from more power" and "speakers distorting - its actually the head unit"..way too much detail for this BBS. Speak to ICE specialists or search the web for material.

I would say this though..the speakers you have fitted, for £90 they are probably better suited to the end of the market that runs from a head unit. There is a reason why £300 speakers cost that much

Adam M

Why has this sparked an argument. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and no one can say that anyone else was wrong, I was defending Lees statement because he was singled out as to be telling porkies in the original post. Opinions cannot be lies if they are genuinely someones opinion.

I am happy to post on the benefit of experience but certainly don't want to offend anyone. If I have upset anyone by defending Lee then I apologise.

strong

Yes agreed I wouldn't have spent only £90 on speakers if I was intending to add amps.

The point I'm trying to make (in case it's not clear) is that if you only have £100 to spend then from my limited and possibly extraordinary experience replacing the front speakers is better than spending £100 on a head unit, at least for a 98MY. If you have £200 or more then go for a head unit. This is based on the assumption that all you're ever going to have is 4 speakers and a head unit - no amps.

Adam: the reason I got annoyed was because I was accused of attacking Lee, when instead I simply disagreed with his assertion based on what I heard with my own ears on my own car.


[This message has been edited by strong (edited 31-01-2000).]

^Gazzer^

Strong,

I would strongly advise (no pun intended) that you replace the rear speakers as well. The old speakers in the rear will give out poor distorted sound, which will offset some of the benefit of replacing the front speakers. As a test, adjust the fade control to cut out the rears completely, then turn up the sound. This will give you the idea.

Adding a small 4 channel amp is also a worthy upgrade. This gives better sound quality, more dynamics and tighter base.

regards,

Gazzer.

[This message has been edited by ^Gazzer^ (edited 31-01-2000).]

strong

Yep I'm doing the rears this weekend. I did exactly as you suggested last night, in fact as a 'clarity test' I adjusted the filter that the Kenwood unit provides so that it cut off everything below 220hz then faded back to front and back again. The backs are definitely 'muddy' in comparison.

Is it worth adding a basic amp with only £100 speakers? Will the difference be noticeable?

BTW, is it advisable to use the same brand for fronts and rears (bearing in mind we're talking about £100-£120 rrp speakers here) because each brand has its own sound?

Paul

[This message has been edited by strong (edited 31-01-2000).]

AndyMc

I replaced front the speakers first (polk components)and there was a huge improvement in quality,next I replaced the head unit(Kenwood 4*40w)and hardly noticed any difference.
My experiance is the same as Strongs,is it just a coincidence that mine is also a 98my?

The standard speakers were cheapo dual cone jobbies(no tweeter).I cannot see how they could possibly make a decent sound

I was wondering if the 99my on cars have better speakers(either co-axial or with a separate tweeter)or maybe the 98my has a better head unit(it is different,well the buttons are at least!) which may account for the differing opinions.

Andy

Tommy

I have a MY 99 and the standard speakers were the same as in my old MY96. They don't look like they could be any good, so I replaced them in both cars. The result was a big improvement for about £100 in both cases.

My view was that the car is too noisy to justify spending a fortune on really high quality kit, and it doesn't seem to distort at high volume.

Lee

heh heh time for another controversial post...(adam will back me though!)

the original "idea" from what I've read was to spend very little (£100?). ie on a budget.

Now you are talking about the rears, and then asking about an amp.

if (at the start) you stop, think and decide how much you really want to spend it makes life easier. (Now I know this to be true since its based on MY experience!!)

Rather than a 4-channel amp and rear 6x9s I should have invested in better fronts...I paid £220 for components and the £400 range sound sooo much better but that would have made things silly so I plumped for the £220 ones.

If you go ahead and do the rears and then get an amp you will have wasted your time..a much better sound would be achieved by using a decent pair of fronts, 2-channel amp and no rears.

Flame Suit On !!!

Adam M

I concur.

See above.

Well said that man.

I'm with Lee.

Can't agree more.

(love pushing threads over the 15 mark)

(flame suit really should be on to aviod being burned by the icon!)

strong

Assumption, assumption and more assumption! :-) I wish people would
carefully read what is said rather than apparently skimming thru and filling in the gaps themselves! :-)

Although never stated, my intention was and still is to upgrade the 4 speakers and the head unit, but only do all that if I thought it necessary.

After changing the fronts I was amazed but along with a likely increase in
quality there were some killer features of the Kenwood (particularly MASK
and remote control) and I had the dosh spare (always helps). After comparing
the fronts and rears I think it is worth doing the rears. I like the staging
forward but wouldn't be happy with no rears. Can you really get great sound
when your right leg almost completely covers the front right speaker?

The reason I asked the amp question is because Gazzer suggested it. I don't
believe an amp is worth using with my speakers but I thought it would be
worth asking since he mentioned it.

I mentioned the £100 speakers on a budget because people have asked what
they should upgrade first - if you have only £100 and a 98MY it looks like
speakers are a good idea, not "the head unit has to go first" that others
seem to have as their mantra ;-)

KRIS

JUST FOR YOUR INFO....


I have just replaced the head unit on my MY98.The front speakers then had to be replaced as they could not handle the power of the new head unit ( Pioneer). The rear ones were slightly better but still not good and they are about to be replaced with something that gives better clarity from the rear.I dont know who`s arguement I`m winning but from recent experience--------->
New head unit = Slightly improved sound but no bass gains and speakers would not take half volume
New head unit + front speakers = Excellent sound better bass. A more ` full` sound than before.
Just a head unit......dont bother , do the lot.

Adam M

strong,

no one is arguing, if you only have £100 to spend, a head unit would be a flase economy. For £100, speakers are a far better buy, as long as it is just £100 in total.

^Gazzer^

Strong,

Given the system you have, then a the addition of a 4 channel amp would be a worthwhile upgrade, although not desperately essential.

My friend is a proffessional audio engineer. He has for example fitted £5000 systems in cars before now. He said that adding an amp (even a small one) would give greater dynamics, better sound quality, deeper and puchier base. The head unit amp is a very light affair, and soon runs out of steam, especially when it gets warm. I havn't done this upgrade myself yet, but when I get some cash I will be adding a Sony 4x100 watt amp (£130).

Lee

indeed. compare the size of an external amp, even a small low-power 2 channel. then look at how much space in a head unit is taken up by the (4way) amps. Doesnt quite look the same does it !

you wouldnt dream of running a home hifi system without an amp would you ?

Adam M

Gazzer,

Your friend is right (IMHO), but he should advise you against a sony four channel amp. You would be far better off going for a company that specialises in aftermarket ice, such as orion, phoenix gold, ut for value caliber.

Sony equipment leaves a lot to be desired as I have said before and I would hate to see someone buying an inferior product just because they were advised badly.

By the way, are you sure that the cost of installation of your professional friends systems is only £5000 because, in serious car audio terms, this is not a lot of money. I have seensystems ranging between £100 and £200000!

robski

Adam,

dont forget it may be the cost of the hardware that is 5000. Dont forget that for a serious comp car, they strip the whole car, and soundproof as they rebuild. Labour can often be much more than the cost of the equipment.

robski

simon james

yeh, the standard MY00 setup is crap.

The speakers are little better than bog paper.....etc.

I have gone for an Alpine head unit (CD commander) 6 disk autochanger, DLS Reference spakers front, cheaper (but better) ones in the back, and DLS tweeters.

The Alpine unit is a design classic, and ergonomc masterpiece, why, it even has a round volume **** - something it seems you have to pay extra for.

has anyone out there tries the Nakamechi
unit, also supposed to be v. good too.

Suresh

Based on [some of] the above opinions, today I replaced the head unit on my MY95 with a single CD Kenwood 4070R 4X40w, which both looks and sounds great relative to the original Panasonic cassette cack.

The speakers are still a bit woolly - esp. the rears, though decent motorway speeds and ICE are now simultaneously feasible.

Will set aside some of my student budget for decent front speakers, at least. Probably Strong's JBL GT6.0mk2 suggestion.

Not a shattering revelation. Just wanted to share my limited experience!

Suresh

sunilp

You lot are being completely anally retentive (particularly Lee and Adam).
I say this because you are slating Mr Strong about now changing his mind about amps and rears etc. That is how things go generally, you WILL never decide at the outset how much you will truthfully spend on anything such as ICE etc. Look at me, bought my car and vowed to keep it bog std, yet 6 months later it has all the bells and whistles (well..almost!)

Chill peeps!

Lee
What are those fronts you have again?...do you have a contact for the company?

Nick Lines

Lee runs the same as I, I think: Clif Designs CL61s. These are also known as CD Technologies (website