type-rob

Good evening chaps,

I am the proud owner of an STI99 Type-R and now the the pleasure of adding sha99ed head gaskets to my list of modifications!!

Anyway, have no idea of costs in this area and have been quoted £750 from a trustworthy source but my friend has turned his nose up at this cost. He has now put doubt in my mind and wanted to know cost broken down...

I know he is using uprated gaskets and bolts but in the short time I was there I didnt ask the breakdown.

The cambelt will be kept at this price.

Question now is.... does that sound a good deal!! I am sure there are places that will cut corners for a cheap price but for a decent job am I in the right teritory?!

Thanks in advance,

Rob

RedScoob

It's an engine out job which adds 4-5 hours to labour (if my experiences are anything to go by). I would change the cambelt, unless it's new, simply as it needs removing anyway. A basic ballpark for parts (I did mine recently) was around £300 for belt, pulleys, gaskets, headbolts, etc. so it soon adds up. I guess the £750 is taking into account the likelyhood that the downpipe will be an ****... It's not a bad job, just time consuming to do right, and with garages, the time is the expensive bit.

sonic93

iTrader: (16)

About right mate as u think parts 300 then heads skimmed if that's a well known Subaru specialist that's a fair price mate what makes u think hg failure?

Tidgy

expect 4 figure sum so sounds too cheap, its not as simple as just changing the gaskets if you want a proper job. its basicly a rebuild needed to be safe. Extra pressure can be put on crank bearings meaning they can fail very soon after the gaskets done and your back to square one.

sonic93

iTrader: (16)

That is a very good point tidgy s right they normally fail not long behind . Any big Scoob specialist should of told u that ?

RICHARD J

iTrader: (4)

When my head gaskets went although there were no engine knocks my engine builder insisted on a full strip to inspect the crank & bearings. It's just aswell too, as although the crank was fine the shells were knackered, so he saved me paying twice for the job. As Tidgy says, that quote sounds too cheap to do it properly.

type-rob

Thanks for the info, I think. This day just gets better doesnt it.

He did say that we would take the opportunity to look and see if there was wear on any other parts.

Deffo hg fail sonic as he did the test on it. I do trust the chap as he is well respected in the area.

So, who has an idea on overall cost, should the worst happen?

Thanks

chocolate_o_brian

iTrader: (22)

Rob - speak to Harvey on here. He is well known for giving astute advice and very competitive prices for work such as this.

chipsncheese

iTrader: (1)

As above. If you can stretch to it, go for a full rebuild from a reputable builder and keep the car for years to come.

Or do it on the cheap and sell asap as it will cost more £££ down the line. Soon.

A full engine build and a remap would strengthen the value of the car.

RICHARD J

iTrader: (4)

To give you an idea of cost, mine was about £1000, but that included new shells & I had my heads fully rebuilt at the same time. However I did remove the engine myself & I think most specialists would add £300_£500 to remove & refit. In short you won't know for certain until it's stripped down, I'd have the shells replaced regardless for peace of mind. Oh & Cosworth gaskets were used on mine which I'd recommend.

harvey

iTrader: (48)

We are around these engines all the time and did not know that bottom ends had issues soon after head gasket replacement. Obviously we have been very lucky, especially considering how many we have done over many years. I cannot work out why there would be any possible relationship between H.G. failure and bottom end failures. No doubt the experts will come back with more precise information as to which bearing(s), relavent to what cylinder and so on. Factual evidence and a sound explanation would be very welcome but please, no anecdotal evidence that simply enters the annals of Scoobynet myth.
I suppose that if an HG failed and water was to find its way into an oilway, possible but not common, then the sump could gather water. But then as we would do an oil and filter change after a Subaru HG failure anyway that may be why we have not experienced this regular occurrence.
What we have noticed is that a lot of O/E STi5 and 6 engines have bottom end issues between 70 and 90K. This is more than a coincidence but if I bought one of these in O/E condition I would probably not change the bearings until they went unless other work was going to be done eg forged and steel rods.
So assuming we trust our judgement :
Engine in and out, remove and refit heads, gaskets, skim the heads, check block is square. Found OK. Say £600.
Oil, filter and antifreeze. £50-£100 subject to the oil used.
Consider ARP 11mm head studs. TBA.
Consider oil pump upgrade. £40 -£200 depending on what is agreed.
Turn around depends on how long the engineering shop takes with the heads but possibly three days start to finnish by prior arrangement and certainly within a Monday to Friday week complete turn around.
BTW you do not need fancy H.G. gaskets. They cost more and you are paying for the name as far a 2 litre builds are concerned but you can tell your mates about them when you go down the pub. The profit margin is better on these however so if you want them we will fit them.

Thanks for sending me the link Andy.

Tidgy

Its all to do with pressure on the bearings. While it isn't required 100% of the time, its not much more cost to do it and mitigate that risk. Bearing wear so you have to do the toss up between milage and wear rates, aka a car with low milage might be less likley to have an issue, a car with high milage is more likley to have an issue.

wether you chose to get it done or not is up to you, but is it realy worth the risk?

cster

The incompetancy of the mechanic carrying out the HG replacement could probably cause such a relationship.
I am sure this would not be the case with you and nor was it the case with API engines who eventually sorted me out.
Moral of the story, be carefull who you let do this kind of work on your car. "Measure twice, cut once" as they say.
As an addendum, I guess the age of the engine would be a factor in deciding as to whether having the engine out was a good excuse for a rebuild or not.

RICHARD J

iTrader: (4)

In all honesty I didn't realise HG failure could cause the bearings to fail, I just thought bearing replacement was common practice when the HG failed on a Subaru. I only used the Cosworth gaskets as that's what the engine builder advised, but when I priced them myself I found they were cheaper than genuine Subaru ones with a trade discount.

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

We, nor 'Clinic, nor any other serious engine specialist in Subaru, will repair head gaskets alone on an older car. It is fair to say that the biggest culprits for consequent big end failure are GC8 types. But we have seen it on higher mileage new age cars too.

My own opinion is that the big end bearings are hanging on by the skin of their teeth at whatever mileage the gaskets give up and a nice top end freshen up exerts a higher load down the rod onto the upper bearing - which is the one that suffers in a Subaru, or any turbo for that matter. The bearing gives up the ghost and a crank failure is the result.

That is usually - in our experience of cars that have been brought to us after the job has been done " by someone who really knows Subaru ", about 4 - 6 weeks after the head gasket job.

That brings about claims from the car owner that " you must have done something wrong, cos it had only just started blowing water out, before that it was perfect!! ".

So rather than have that uncomfortable argument about coincidence and suchlike, we insist on at least split the crankcases and replace the big bearings as a stitch in time.

Most customers listen and agree, some take their cars elsewhere " to someone who really knows Subaru " and get the head gaskets work done there.

Advice is free. Listen or don't, your choice. We say: there is never enough budget to do it right - but always enough to do it twice.......

David APi

Call me to talk it through Harv if you wish.

harvey

iTrader: (48)

I listen with great regard to everything you say David but if the engine is in good condition other than a head gasket there is absolutely no point replacing bearings for the sake of it. The main cause of head gaskets going apart from finding the boost limit on that particular engine tends to be an overheat because the car has been allowed to run out of water or run low on water often from a leak the owner has known about for weeks but sometimes from a burst pipe that has not been caught quick enough. Also, engines that are recently rebuilt where the heads probably have not been flattened or the people carrying out the work did not observe certain procedures or even have torque wrenches.
As regards bearing failures we often replace these after the engine has started to knock without any need to replace the crank. If the problem is reacted to quickly enough and the car is not run the crank remains in good condition. If necessary it can be sent out to our local machine shop for polishing or just dimension checking which in itself is a specialist activity. If the crank cannot be reused and polishing is not an option in some cases there is the facility to regrind the crank. A big no-no in some circles but quite satisfactory in my experience and that is what I did with the STi 3 Wagon when I bought it with a failed engine all these years ago and I work on the basis that if it is good enough for me it is good enough for my customers if they are happy to go down that route on the basis of my advice.
The success rate or should I say lack of failures we have on cylinder head gasket replacement and bearing replacement bears out what I say. We could not do what we do without the support of a highly competent machine shop specifically automotive orientated and we would not embark on a repair at our recommendation if in our considered opinion it was going to result in a subsequent failure so to some great extent it relies on our knowledge and judgement coupled with our past experience.

I have been flat out and will be for a few hours yet and have only come across this post now but I will certainly give you a ring tomorrow. I respect your alternative view but many customers don't have a budget for a major expense for an unplanned engine failure. They do not want a belt and braces approach which in many cases is not required and they rely on our judgement which has been sound to date.

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

Harv, you are plain old fashioned wrong. What you don't see is the sheer volume of cars that come to me or Clinic etc., that are on their last legs.

Having arguments about why an engine has failed again, a short while after serious engine repairs, is not something that we want to get into.

Us tuners get all sorts of claims about why a car has only started doing xxx since you touched it, and most times it is provably just circumstances and nothing we have touched. Other time it is just opportunism to get some work done on the car without paying. AND despite being human, sometimes we are responsible.

AND just about everyone who is told to do the job properly, agrees that if they know that there is a possibility of a further engine failure just up the road, crossing your fingers and hoping, against a small extra current spend, is a no brainer.

David

The Gaffer

Hi,

we have found there is an 80% chance of big end failure shortly after just doing the head-gaskets, as David says mainly on early GC8 cars but we too have seen it happen on later high mileage vehicles.

We always explain to customers that unless we pop the block apart and inspect/replace the bearings we cannot warrant the bottom end, if they choose to ignore our advice its their call, normally people see sense and for the extra few quid will have a re fresh and a full up warranty.

Another "specialist" who posts on here once argued with us openly stating that we were just trying to drum up business by saying we recommend bottom end re fresh when doing head-gaskets, we put our findings forward as we are doing here, no one listened, said "specialist" did the job and hey presto, 50 odd miles down the road, big ends rattling, the whole job and more having to be re done, my question, is it worth the risk?

cheers
Kev

harvey

iTrader: (48)

David/Kev : I respect both of you guys immensely as I think you both know but we are going to have to beg to differ on this.
If a car comes to us (Darren) for a head gasket we look at it and make a recommendation. This will not be an automatic recommendation to replace bottom end bearings. Never has been, never will be. We assess what the customer is telling us, the condition of the car, the servicing intervals, oil in use and probable manner of driving. The mileage on that particular engine and any recent repairs also influences greatly our advice but an automatic recommendation to replace bottom bearings is not on and our success record over a number of years indicates that we get it right.

Both of you have actually qualified what you are saying :
We, nor 'Clinic, nor any other serious engine specialist in Subaru, will repair head gaskets alone on an older car. It is fair to say that the biggest culprits for consequent big end failure are GC8 types. But we have seen it on higher mileage new age cars too.

This infers we are not serious engine specialists. Noted.
You are factually wrong. Other engine builders use their judgement as we do.
You have not read what I have said or what has gone before. This thread has evolved into automatically replacing bottom ends when doing head gaskets. We take into account the car mileage and if it is clapped out advise accordingly. On odd occassions the advice is that the car is not worth repairing. Put the grand plus needed into another vehicle.

Kev : Fine.
I am not disagreeing with what you say, Please read the whole thread.The vehicle age and mileage and several other factors influences our decision(s)


If we do head gaskets (because we always do both) we are responsible for our workmanship which does not then extend to the bottom end. If we think a bottom end refresh is advisable we say so and it is the customer's decision. If we think he is making a bad decision we will tell him in a forthright manner but it is his decision and our position is and will remain that bottom end refresh is only needed if the circumstances indicate that. Bear in mind what I have already said about ver 5 and 6 cars and the mileage you can expect before the bottom end problems are likely to occur. We take all this into account. It is down to judgement, I am happy with our position and record and we will not have customers spending their hard earned if it is unnecessary. We realise the attraction of bearing replacement because the engine is out and already on a stand so the additional cost to fit good quality bearings then is probably in the order of £250. So it is attractive to do it then with the engine already on the stand but not everyone has a spare £250 on top of the already and substantial HG repair cost which was unexpected. However where do you stop? Why not just replace the piston rings while you are at it.

Now I suspect you have both had bad experiences probably where a customer that has had a HG job recently then has a bottom end go so now you go belt and braces to avoid that. I prefer a different approach. The customer wants an HG job. We check the car over and confirm the HG and get relevant information. Based on that, combined with our check over we will advise the customer if we think other work should be done.
In the same way we are fair with our customers we expect them to be fair with us. It has never happened to us but if someone tried to come it on regards an unrelated big end failure they would get short shrift the same as anyone else that tries to come it on. They don't do it twice, handled properly. Our reputation speaks for itself.
Now I could write a book about some experiences, funny and sometimes less so, often amusing involving the odd try on and such like. The lap top man from Newport still brings a smile to my face..... but I digress.