Harveys Headers.... having your cake AND eating it ...
23 August 2010, 11:11 PM
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Harveys Headers.... having your cake AND eating it ...
Hi Guys
Been running a rebuilt 2.5 Sti since April / May after dreaded ringland failure back in February.
Enginetuner did the forged rebuild with all the right bits, Wiseco, K1, Cosworth, RCM, ARP etc etc. Basically the same except for flowed and ported heads - which seemed a good idea at the time.
With a Litchfield/Forge caik, decat H+S downpipe (wrapped), 2nd hand PPP exhaust bits, and Ecutek remap it made a storming 365 / 365. A near identical Hatch with full H+S 3" exhaust made 355 / 365 ... maybe the flowed heads made the little extra on mine.
Worth noting that these vf48 turbos won't do more than 370bhp (regardless of what other rolling roads / delta dash readouts say). So no offence please - do some research. So pretty much maxed out the turbo with the car going very well, aggressive, and so much improved over standard. Plus Martyn did some ecu trickery on improving the throttle response... nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more...
So 3000 miles since build, due last oil change before synthetic (Cosworth earlier this year changed their running in guidelines to 3k on mineral oil then switcharoo to fully synthetic), and due 20,000 mile service - I decided to go once again on the 500 mile round trip to those lovely guys at Enginetuner.
I had been musing having something else down whilst down there, but not having bucks to throw around decided to maybe sort the headers out. So... after speaking to header guru Harvey Smith I ordered a fully wrapped set of RCM tubular headers with one of Harvey's hybrid slip-jointed up-pipes (which gets smaller at the top, supposedly eradicating the later spool characteristics of tubies) - they were delivered in 24 hours ! ! ! Harvey is a genuine legend guys
So car was serviced, last oil change and tubular headers fitted. Car started.... exhaust note snarlier, sharper, and yet smoother too... sounds good.
Martyn master mapper was called upon to work his trickery once again.
Well... an hour or so later we touched nigh on 430 lb torque
thats an increase of 60+ lb at nigh on exactly the same spooling point !!!! ASTONISHING !
After much twiddling at the laptop we couldn't coax any more bhp out of the car - in fact it was 0.7bhp different from last time (that's consistent eh ?) - then we remembered the turbo was maxed out before we started and coudn't make any more power if we wanted it to (and we did) .
But the way it amde the same power level was very different (so much less stress). Initial boost of 1.5 bar at 3400 dropped off very quickly down to 1 bar where 350/360bhp was held until redline. Previously it held boost at 1.49 to 6krevs + , now its making exactly the same figures with much less boost.
So now the car is 365 / 430 and quite a step up in performance again. Well worth the money BUT I would encourgae you to get the Harvey hybrid up-pipe if you want to keep your spooling low. The RCM standard one has the same diameter all the way = same power proabably but not same spool (maybe 500rpm difference). BTW Harvey rates his up-pipe to 600bhp with no loss in performance.
Alan Jeffries at Enginetuner had told me that the people at Cosworth had made similar claims that tubular headers work particulary well with the hatch cars 2.5 set up BUT it was the first time he'd seem such dramatic increases in torque through one straight forward modifcation. Add to that the fact that these RCM header / Harvey up-pipe combos actually do what they say on the tin (quite rare these days). So impressed were they, that they kept a r/r printout for their records too.
It may be worth saying that my flowed and ported heads helped these figures BUT even if you only got 40-50lb increase it would still be very much best bang for your buck theology.
Hope this helps somebody and PLEASE if my limited knowledge has caused offence - Chill out we're all on a learning curve
FUTURE plans are a new turbo and injectors, more likely to be a TD MD555 420 - 450 special. These turbos fit straight on.... and spool really well, and are not 'salesmen turbos'.
A
PS . Big thanks to Alan, Martyn, and the boys for being there. Top service guys as ever, and reasonable with it too. Highly recommended for rebuilds / advice.
PPS . They also did the DVD player trick for me - took 5 mins.
Been running a rebuilt 2.5 Sti since April / May after dreaded ringland failure back in February.
Enginetuner did the forged rebuild with all the right bits, Wiseco, K1, Cosworth, RCM, ARP etc etc. Basically the same except for flowed and ported heads - which seemed a good idea at the time.
With a Litchfield/Forge caik, decat H+S downpipe (wrapped), 2nd hand PPP exhaust bits, and Ecutek remap it made a storming 365 / 365. A near identical Hatch with full H+S 3" exhaust made 355 / 365 ... maybe the flowed heads made the little extra on mine.
Worth noting that these vf48 turbos won't do more than 370bhp (regardless of what other rolling roads / delta dash readouts say). So no offence please - do some research. So pretty much maxed out the turbo with the car going very well, aggressive, and so much improved over standard. Plus Martyn did some ecu trickery on improving the throttle response... nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more...
So 3000 miles since build, due last oil change before synthetic (Cosworth earlier this year changed their running in guidelines to 3k on mineral oil then switcharoo to fully synthetic), and due 20,000 mile service - I decided to go once again on the 500 mile round trip to those lovely guys at Enginetuner.
I had been musing having something else down whilst down there, but not having bucks to throw around decided to maybe sort the headers out. So... after speaking to header guru Harvey Smith I ordered a fully wrapped set of RCM tubular headers with one of Harvey's hybrid slip-jointed up-pipes (which gets smaller at the top, supposedly eradicating the later spool characteristics of tubies) - they were delivered in 24 hours ! ! ! Harvey is a genuine legend guys
So car was serviced, last oil change and tubular headers fitted. Car started.... exhaust note snarlier, sharper, and yet smoother too... sounds good.
Martyn master mapper was called upon to work his trickery once again.
Well... an hour or so later we touched nigh on 430 lb torque
thats an increase of 60+ lb at nigh on exactly the same spooling point !!!! ASTONISHING !
After much twiddling at the laptop we couldn't coax any more bhp out of the car - in fact it was 0.7bhp different from last time (that's consistent eh ?) - then we remembered the turbo was maxed out before we started and coudn't make any more power if we wanted it to (and we did) .
But the way it amde the same power level was very different (so much less stress). Initial boost of 1.5 bar at 3400 dropped off very quickly down to 1 bar where 350/360bhp was held until redline. Previously it held boost at 1.49 to 6krevs + , now its making exactly the same figures with much less boost.
So now the car is 365 / 430 and quite a step up in performance again. Well worth the money BUT I would encourgae you to get the Harvey hybrid up-pipe if you want to keep your spooling low. The RCM standard one has the same diameter all the way = same power proabably but not same spool (maybe 500rpm difference). BTW Harvey rates his up-pipe to 600bhp with no loss in performance.
Alan Jeffries at Enginetuner had told me that the people at Cosworth had made similar claims that tubular headers work particulary well with the hatch cars 2.5 set up BUT it was the first time he'd seem such dramatic increases in torque through one straight forward modifcation. Add to that the fact that these RCM header / Harvey up-pipe combos actually do what they say on the tin (quite rare these days). So impressed were they, that they kept a r/r printout for their records too.
It may be worth saying that my flowed and ported heads helped these figures BUT even if you only got 40-50lb increase it would still be very much best bang for your buck theology.
Hope this helps somebody and PLEASE if my limited knowledge has caused offence - Chill out we're all on a learning curve
FUTURE plans are a new turbo and injectors, more likely to be a TD MD555 420 - 450 special. These turbos fit straight on.... and spool really well, and are not 'salesmen turbos'.
A
PS . Big thanks to Alan, Martyn, and the boys for being there. Top service guys as ever, and reasonable with it too. Highly recommended for rebuilds / advice.
PPS . They also did the DVD player trick for me - took 5 mins.
Last edited by Apostle; 23 August 2010 at 11:17 PM.
24 August 2010, 07:10 AM
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24 August 2010, 10:48 AM
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With respect to Harvey, it should be noted he's not the only one doing hybrid up-pipes. Subaru4U also provide these and make them in stainless steel to any specification you require. After doing some research into venturi flow modeling I came up with a design and £174 + fitting later it was on my car....
Only quirk I had was that, while the pipe was tapered, because of the slip joint, the minimum cross sectional area was at the very end of the pipe which obviously reduces the benefit over where the restriction should be, i.e. usually toward the middle.
Only quirk I had was that, while the pipe was tapered, because of the slip joint, the minimum cross sectional area was at the very end of the pipe which obviously reduces the benefit over where the restriction should be, i.e. usually toward the middle.
Last edited by aXeL; 24 August 2010 at 10:52 AM.
24 August 2010, 11:37 AM
#5
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Apostle thats an excellent improvement, I used one of Harvey's hybrid pipes on my STi5 and that really helped the GT35 hybrid pick up better.
have you got the before and after graphs? Be good to see the comparison especially the improvement in boost response.
Great result
bob
have you got the before and after graphs? Be good to see the comparison especially the improvement in boost response.
Great result
bob
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24 August 2010, 07:17 PM
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Thanks for the positive feedback 
Any technical questions speak to Harvey - he's a minefield of information... and he's got a website with lots of stuff on it.
Bob I do have last Fridays graph but don't know where the printout from May is ? ? ? Yet.... Bound to be somewhere safe...
Once found I can hopefully scan and email (as I dont have the wisdom of how to stick them in SN posts).
PS Also worth saying is Harveys headers when wrapped - each pipe is wrapped individually, not wrapped around everything once fitted. What i'm trying to say is its very neat and obviously a better job than a mass wrap around when all fitted.
And yes other people do their own up-pipes... and some are probably better than others... my choice was Harveys Smiths and many here will confirm that as a good choice.
Just wanted to say its a good bit of kit which does what it says on the tin.... quite a rare thing theses days eh ?
A
Any technical questions speak to Harvey - he's a minefield of information... and he's got a website with lots of stuff on it.
Bob I do have last Fridays graph but don't know where the printout from May is ? ? ? Yet.... Bound to be somewhere safe...
Once found I can hopefully scan and email (as I dont have the wisdom of how to stick them in SN posts).PS Also worth saying is Harveys headers when wrapped - each pipe is wrapped individually, not wrapped around everything once fitted. What i'm trying to say is its very neat and obviously a better job than a mass wrap around when all fitted.
And yes other people do their own up-pipes... and some are probably better than others... my choice was Harveys Smiths and many here will confirm that as a good choice.
Just wanted to say its a good bit of kit which does what it says on the tin.... quite a rare thing theses days eh ?
A
Last edited by Apostle; 24 August 2010 at 07:21 PM. Reason: More info
24 August 2010, 11:29 PM
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Very pleased to hear it's up to scratch, Martyn's on holiday right now, but itching to get back in here of course! I'll pass on the fulsome praise..
25 August 2010, 11:15 AM
#16
Nice to see your comprehensive writeup John and thankyou for your kind words. I am glad I have another very happy customer and the result was never in doubt on your car. 
Generally, each car is different so the best solution for one car may not be exactly the best solution on another car so it is important to identify what the objective is, the relevant mods to date, particularly turbo and then future modification intentions and timescale. At that point a wise choice can be made and it is important to match the solution as closely as possible to the overall objective. For that reason I have eight different uppipe designs, two bolt flange to operate primarily with O/E ported header sets and three bolt flange to operate with the RCMS tubular headers which I also stock.
All the headers are made from high grade stainless steel, slip jointed, DEI heatwrapped and five new studs. All flanges are precision laser cut but assembly and welding is by hand and quality is second to none. Developing the uppipe John had fitted above took 12 months of continual trial and effort and flow bench time to perfect design to the point I was happy.
Two bolt uppipes are £139, DEI wrapped with studs and three bolt are £149 ditto, all plus delivery.
Thanks John.
Generally, each car is different so the best solution for one car may not be exactly the best solution on another car so it is important to identify what the objective is, the relevant mods to date, particularly turbo and then future modification intentions and timescale. At that point a wise choice can be made and it is important to match the solution as closely as possible to the overall objective. For that reason I have eight different uppipe designs, two bolt flange to operate primarily with O/E ported header sets and three bolt flange to operate with the RCMS tubular headers which I also stock.
All the headers are made from high grade stainless steel, slip jointed, DEI heatwrapped and five new studs. All flanges are precision laser cut but assembly and welding is by hand and quality is second to none. Developing the uppipe John had fitted above took 12 months of continual trial and effort and flow bench time to perfect design to the point I was happy.
Two bolt uppipes are £139, DEI wrapped with studs and three bolt are £149 ditto, all plus delivery.
Thanks John.
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