Rolling road vs road map
07 March 2009, 08:35 PM
#1
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Reigate Surrey
Posts: 2,656
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rolling road vs road map
Hi all getting a remap soon and just wondered the difference between the above, I went for the rolling map! Is there a advantage or disadvantage between the two 
07 March 2009, 08:45 PM
#2
Scooby Senior
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Slowly rebuilding the kit of bits into a car...
Posts: 14,333
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IMHO
1. A rolling road is great for setting up a modified engine from scratch.
2. You drive on the road, so map it there !
Mine was mapped on the road both times, a RR can't replicate the actual conditions on the road. But that doesn't mean you CAN'T map on the rollers obviously.
dunx
1. A rolling road is great for setting up a modified engine from scratch.
2. You drive on the road, so map it there !
Mine was mapped on the road both times, a RR can't replicate the actual conditions on the road. But that doesn't mean you CAN'T map on the rollers obviously.
dunx
07 March 2009, 09:06 PM
#4
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Reigate Surrey
Posts: 2,656
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was so excited about getting it done along with a decat till some twit drove into the back of the car Wednesday a fcuked the bumper and bent me prodrive back box
07 March 2009, 09:18 PM
#5
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: powys
Posts: 954
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IMHO
1. A rolling road is great for setting up a modified engine from scratch.
2. You drive on the road, so map it there !
Mine was mapped on the road both times, a RR can't replicate the actual conditions on the road. But that doesn't mean you CAN'T map on the rollers obviously.
dunx
1. A rolling road is great for setting up a modified engine from scratch.
2. You drive on the road, so map it there !
Mine was mapped on the road both times, a RR can't replicate the actual conditions on the road. But that doesn't mean you CAN'T map on the rollers obviously.
dunx
+1
or get it mapped on rollers, but MAKE SURE it is tested/tweaked on the road.
(if the dyno operator knows what hes doing then it should be pretty close and will need less tweaking on the road)
07 March 2009, 09:23 PM
#6
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Worcester
Posts: 2,625
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i remember when i had my first remap, its quiet an involving experience if you are doing it on the road
they should put a warning on it as its addictive, soon I will be having my 6th remap !!
07 March 2009, 09:24 PM
#7
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: where ever i lay my hat
Posts: 1,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IMHO
1. A rolling road is great for setting up a modified engine from scratch.
2. You drive on the road, so map it there !
Mine was mapped on the road both times, a RR can't replicate the actual conditions on the road. But that doesn't mean you CAN'T map on the rollers obviously.
dunx
1. A rolling road is great for setting up a modified engine from scratch.
2. You drive on the road, so map it there !
Mine was mapped on the road both times, a RR can't replicate the actual conditions on the road. But that doesn't mean you CAN'T map on the rollers obviously.
dunx
providing the air flow is correct.
I have always wonder how you can adjust/tweek the mapp properly when you are flying down the road.
if the rollers are good enough for F1 then i would have thought its good enough for our road cars
just my opinion tho
I can see this turning into abit of a debate
Trending Topics
07 March 2009, 09:38 PM
#9
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: On my real nice push bike!
Posts: 1,662
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Iv had my car's mapped more times then i would like to think!
Always done it on the road but did it on the rollers about a month ago for the very first time! I liked it!
Main thing for me is you get a print out of what the car is doing right away and you don't get killed! My gears are very big and im seeing 100 in 3rd on the road and its just not safe!
As soon as the car was mapped up on the rollers we then went for a drive home and there were some changes made were needed.
Main thing i got home to see me kids and eastenders
Always done it on the road but did it on the rollers about a month ago for the very first time! I liked it!
Main thing for me is you get a print out of what the car is doing right away and you don't get killed! My gears are very big and im seeing 100 in 3rd on the road and its just not safe!
As soon as the car was mapped up on the rollers we then went for a drive home and there were some changes made were needed.
Main thing i got home to see me kids and eastenders
08 March 2009, 12:49 PM
#11
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Moved to the Darkside
Posts: 5,034
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How does the car know its not on the road when its actually on the rollers!!
providing the air flow is correct.
I have always wonder how you can adjust/tweek the mapp properly when you are flying down the road.
if the rollers are good enough for F1 then i would have thought its good enough for our road cars
just my opinion tho
I can see this turning into abit of a debate
providing the air flow is correct.
I have always wonder how you can adjust/tweek the mapp properly when you are flying down the road.
if the rollers are good enough for F1 then i would have thought its good enough for our road cars
just my opinion tho
I can see this turning into abit of a debate
Rollers are good tool to help set up a car but you drive on the rd so map on the rd IMHO. JGM mapped mine on the rd and he did a damn good job too.
Aaron
08 March 2009, 12:50 PM
#12
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: 1600cc's of twin scroll fun :)
Posts: 25,565
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
There are a couple of ways of looking at this, a rolling road is a fixed enviroment, the road isnt.
By fixed enviroment, i mean that you can keep a constant, where as on the road it depends on the road conditions (rain, sunny, cold, hot etc) which can all have different effects, but its probably a slightly better way to tweak a map, in the rolling road enviroment its a safer way to map (no pedestrians to run over etc and probably a more conservative map)
Remember that manufacturers use both a test track and a multi enviromental road/area to do this with their cars, but they do have alot of money to spend on developement
Tony
By fixed enviroment, i mean that you can keep a constant, where as on the road it depends on the road conditions (rain, sunny, cold, hot etc) which can all have different effects, but its probably a slightly better way to tweak a map, in the rolling road enviroment its a safer way to map (no pedestrians to run over etc and probably a more conservative map)
Remember that manufacturers use both a test track and a multi enviromental road/area to do this with their cars, but they do have alot of money to spend on developement
Tony
08 March 2009, 01:11 PM
#14
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: 1600cc's of twin scroll fun :)
Posts: 25,565
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Tony
08 March 2009, 01:23 PM
#15
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (67)
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: w,yorkshire
Posts: 4,061
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
as said before a good mapper should be able to do a good job on the rollers or on the road.having had quite a few maps now on both i think from a safety point of veiw the rollers are better, as when your reaching well over 100mph within seconds on public roads then things start to get a little hairy.
08 March 2009, 01:50 PM
#16
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Moved to the Darkside
Posts: 5,034
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
from Andy Forrest website,
Engines tuned on bench dynos or rolling roads are generally mapped at fixed rpm intervals. Whilst this allows an approximate setting to be achieved, real life conditions are always occurring not at static rpm but at a rate of acceleration. A fixed speed derived map will be slower on the road than a map optimised to the cars actual acceleration rate (although the rolling road derived map may well produce bigger numbers on the rollers).
This is one reason why we tune our turbo cars on the road under real life temperature and conditions.
For a good read here is the link to the full write up, it has been posted numerous times when this debate crops up
http://http://www.andyforrestperform....uk/26063.html
Aaron
Engines tuned on bench dynos or rolling roads are generally mapped at fixed rpm intervals. Whilst this allows an approximate setting to be achieved, real life conditions are always occurring not at static rpm but at a rate of acceleration. A fixed speed derived map will be slower on the road than a map optimised to the cars actual acceleration rate (although the rolling road derived map may well produce bigger numbers on the rollers).
This is one reason why we tune our turbo cars on the road under real life temperature and conditions.
For a good read here is the link to the full write up, it has been posted numerous times when this debate crops up
http://http://www.andyforrestperform....uk/26063.html
Aaron
08 March 2009, 02:04 PM
#17
Scooby Senior
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Slowly rebuilding the kit of bits into a car...
Posts: 14,333
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Danny !
F1 use engine dyno's ! Easy to pull out and replace.
Survivabliity is the best reason I've seen so far !
Process : -
1. Drive from 3000 rpm to 6000 rpm in third at part WOT and repeat, till boost control seems o.k.
2. Drive at WOT as above.
repeat until happy....
3. Do the same in fourth gear.
4. Then fifth gear !
5. Then Top Gear
6. Grin
dunx
P.S. JGM even answers questions whilst modifying maps !
F1 use engine dyno's ! Easy to pull out and replace.
Survivabliity is the best reason I've seen so far !
Process : -
1. Drive from 3000 rpm to 6000 rpm in third at part WOT and repeat, till boost control seems o.k.
2. Drive at WOT as above.
repeat until happy....3. Do the same in fourth gear.
4. Then fifth gear !
5. Then Top Gear
6. Grin
dunx
P.S. JGM even answers questions whilst modifying maps !
08 March 2009, 03:43 PM
#18
Scooby Regular
A combination of rollers/road/track (If available) will always produce the best results IMHO and from experience.
I have on more than one occassion found situations were road mapped cars have been mapped beyond optimum boost levels for the setup, and reducing boost and optimising timing and fueling actually produced more power and torque. This wasn't just confirmed on the rollers, but by the customers test driving their own vehicles after the session was finished.
I have on more than one occassion found situations were road mapped cars have been mapped beyond optimum boost levels for the setup, and reducing boost and optimising timing and fueling actually produced more power and torque. This wasn't just confirmed on the rollers, but by the customers test driving their own vehicles after the session was finished.
08 March 2009, 05:12 PM
#19
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: powys
Posts: 954
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
if you want a pretty 'graph' and bhp pub talk fodder then get it mapped on the rollers.
if you want a quick, smooth, reliable car then get it mapped on the road.
(do agree with the dangers of mapping on the road though)
if you want a quick, smooth, reliable car then get it mapped on the road.
(do agree with the dangers of mapping on the road though)
08 March 2009, 10:15 PM
#20
Scooby Regular
[QUOTE=sponners;8562553].
quick, smooth, reliable .
QUOTE]
Ballcocks, lmao.
Are you saying that a car that is rolling road mapped and tweaked on the road if reqd, will be none of the above ?
quick, smooth, reliable .
QUOTE]
Ballcocks, lmao.
Are you saying that a car that is rolling road mapped and tweaked on the road if reqd, will be none of the above ?
08 March 2009, 11:29 PM
#23
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Enginetuner.co.uk Plymouth Dyno Dynamics RR Engine machining and building EcuTek SimTek mapping
Posts: 3,662
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
from Andy Forrest website,
Engines tuned on bench dynos or rolling roads are generally mapped at fixed rpm intervals. Whilst this allows an approximate setting to be achieved, real life conditions are always occurring not at static rpm but at a rate of acceleration. A fixed speed derived map will be slower on the road than a map optimised to the cars actual acceleration rate (although the rolling road derived map may well produce bigger numbers on the rollers).
This is one reason why we tune our turbo cars on the road under real life temperature and conditions.
For a good read here is the link to the full write up, it has been posted numerous times when this debate crops up
http://http://www.andyforrestperform....uk/26063.html
Aaron
Engines tuned on bench dynos or rolling roads are generally mapped at fixed rpm intervals. Whilst this allows an approximate setting to be achieved, real life conditions are always occurring not at static rpm but at a rate of acceleration. A fixed speed derived map will be slower on the road than a map optimised to the cars actual acceleration rate (although the rolling road derived map may well produce bigger numbers on the rollers).
This is one reason why we tune our turbo cars on the road under real life temperature and conditions.
For a good read here is the link to the full write up, it has been posted numerous times when this debate crops up
http://http://www.andyforrestperform....uk/26063.html
Aaron
09 March 2009, 04:18 PM
#24
Properly mapped on the road the car should feel smooth with no particular foibles. That might not always be the case with a car mapped on the rolling road only. However, even as a mapper without a rolling road has admitted, "You need the rollers to get the last 10-15 bhp from the car" That's right isn't it Alan?
A combination of both will IMHO give the best results but that takes a mapper time and time is money. I think the selection of the appropriate mapper for the job in hand is more important than whether it is road or rollers and some issues are best tackled on the open road where others are easier to sort on the rolling road.
A combination of both will IMHO give the best results but that takes a mapper time and time is money. I think the selection of the appropriate mapper for the job in hand is more important than whether it is road or rollers and some issues are best tackled on the open road where others are easier to sort on the rolling road.
09 March 2009, 10:41 PM
#25
Erm this thread topic rings bells, does this one do the rounds every other month lol.
When road mapping there is no safe way to spot the top of the ignition/power curve. By safe i mean ENGINE safe, not the obvious break neck speeds that are reached by road mapping, that goes without saying. Road mappers HAVE to use clever knock detection mechanisms like your KS3 or the rudimentary headphones that serve a similar purpose by screwing to the block because they have no other telemetry to base their adjustments on. In theory, although you would have to be pretty bold to try, an engine can be mapped from scratch without any of these and mapped for optimum or indeed maximum power. These devices then serve other purposes for exotics that could cause detonation, and are very useful as safety nets, not as mapping tools. The point is, that road mapping to a certain degree involves guess work and trial and error, you have to either from previous experience know exactly how far to push a typical setup (of which there are thousands) in each vehicle (of which there are millions) before optimum power is passed or you have to push it too far and wind it back (hence you KS3 or headphones) at which point your mapper is already damaging your engine. So the trade off is fall short, or let them push too far.
An EFI engine by definition is computer controlled; there is a lot of talk about how rollers can never simulate the real world. What exactly does that mean, does that mean that because the car is inside and sheltered from the elements that the calibrations are false? The half dozen important components of the EFI system are designed to allow you engine to adjust based on any environment within limits, it therefore matters very little how windy it is when you lean out of the window either on the road or on some rollers, a properly calibrated engine will work on or off the rollers. Dyno Dynamics dyno's are particularly good because they can self calibrate for temps and humidity and by design they allow you to measure effort, created by torque, created by you mapper increasing ignition.
In my opinion, this is the only way an engine should be setup, because it is the only safe way and engine can be calibrated. To be fair the rabbit warren goes even deeper than a chassis dyno when you consider that most manufacturers and high end F1 engine builders (to use a previous example) use engine dyno's which allow for more accurate readings before the drive train. Ilmor engines in Brixworth make all the Indianapolis engines and Champ car lumps as well as Mercedes Benz engines for Mclaren before they are sent to Woking for a polish. I didn't see a single boiler suit and a laptop sitting in the front of any o the cars when i worked there..
Not all mappers where boiler suits mind lol
just my view
@
When road mapping there is no safe way to spot the top of the ignition/power curve. By safe i mean ENGINE safe, not the obvious break neck speeds that are reached by road mapping, that goes without saying. Road mappers HAVE to use clever knock detection mechanisms like your KS3 or the rudimentary headphones that serve a similar purpose by screwing to the block because they have no other telemetry to base their adjustments on. In theory, although you would have to be pretty bold to try, an engine can be mapped from scratch without any of these and mapped for optimum or indeed maximum power. These devices then serve other purposes for exotics that could cause detonation, and are very useful as safety nets, not as mapping tools. The point is, that road mapping to a certain degree involves guess work and trial and error, you have to either from previous experience know exactly how far to push a typical setup (of which there are thousands) in each vehicle (of which there are millions) before optimum power is passed or you have to push it too far and wind it back (hence you KS3 or headphones) at which point your mapper is already damaging your engine. So the trade off is fall short, or let them push too far.
An EFI engine by definition is computer controlled; there is a lot of talk about how rollers can never simulate the real world. What exactly does that mean, does that mean that because the car is inside and sheltered from the elements that the calibrations are false? The half dozen important components of the EFI system are designed to allow you engine to adjust based on any environment within limits, it therefore matters very little how windy it is when you lean out of the window either on the road or on some rollers, a properly calibrated engine will work on or off the rollers. Dyno Dynamics dyno's are particularly good because they can self calibrate for temps and humidity and by design they allow you to measure effort, created by torque, created by you mapper increasing ignition.
In my opinion, this is the only way an engine should be setup, because it is the only safe way and engine can be calibrated. To be fair the rabbit warren goes even deeper than a chassis dyno when you consider that most manufacturers and high end F1 engine builders (to use a previous example) use engine dyno's which allow for more accurate readings before the drive train. Ilmor engines in Brixworth make all the Indianapolis engines and Champ car lumps as well as Mercedes Benz engines for Mclaren before they are sent to Woking for a polish. I didn't see a single boiler suit and a laptop sitting in the front of any o the cars when i worked there..
Not all mappers where boiler suits mind lol
just my view
@
09 March 2009, 10:51 PM
#26
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Enginetuner.co.uk Plymouth Dyno Dynamics RR Engine machining and building EcuTek SimTek mapping
Posts: 3,662
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Properly mapped on the road the car should feel smooth with no particular foibles. That might not always be the case with a car mapped on the rolling road only. However, even as a mapper without a rolling road has admitted, "You need the rollers to get the last 10-15 bhp from the car" That's right isn't it Alan?
A combination of both will IMHO give the best results but that takes a mapper time and time is money. I think the selection of the appropriate mapper for the job in hand is more important than whether it is road or rollers and some issues are best tackled on the open road where others are easier to sort on the rolling road.
A combination of both will IMHO give the best results but that takes a mapper time and time is money. I think the selection of the appropriate mapper for the job in hand is more important than whether it is road or rollers and some issues are best tackled on the open road where others are easier to sort on the rolling road.
It's why we've always done whatever it takes!
10 March 2009, 08:38 AM
#28
Scooby Regular
TTBOMK the teams do not have the facility to alter fueling or timing directly from the pit lane, probably just as well, lol, ooooops wrong key, "Sorry Lewis".
Last edited by MartynJ; 10 March 2009 at 08:46 AM.
10 March 2009, 09:04 AM
#30
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Enginetuner.co.uk Plymouth Dyno Dynamics RR Engine machining and building EcuTek SimTek mapping
Posts: 3,662
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you bear in mind that the ECU will only give outputs relative to sensor inputs, ie figures on load sites, you'll realise that you can't excessively load it if it's mapped correctly.