leeroywrx

iTrader: (10)

ive got a 95wrx and have just bought a apexi power fc shortly to be mapped.ive got a nur spec,sports cat and 57i kit fitted and 440s,rcm headers and up pipe and blitz boost controller to be fitted soon.should i upgrade the intercooler as the slanty one on mine is supposed to be poor compared to the rest of the later ones?any helpful opinions welcome

ex-webby

Depends on turbo and expected output later on (in your case). I would tend to recommend the STI8> TMIC conversion for most road applications. Excellent intercooler, that keeps the response.

leeroywrx

iTrader: (10)

have no idea of output once all parts added and mapped are the sti8 intercoolers hard to modify?my diy skills are limited shall we say the turbo is a td05 i think.

ex-webby

Ok...

STI8 TMIC are fine for around 430bhp, so will be fine for your application (unless you are running those 440's at 9bar of pressure lol). The intercooler itself does not need modifying, but you will have to alter some items to get it to fit. Plenty of guides in the projects forum on how to do this.

Intercooler can be had for circa £250 S/H and is one of the best TMIC's around.

It's quite a common upgrade for a Classic Scoob.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

My 2 cents having just upgraded the intercooler (and explored relevant options) myself. On a new age, unless you're going for v high power, its a no brainer, STi 8, simple upgrade, very effective!

On a classic, if you get to a stage where you have to upgrade the intercooler, which for a 95 car would be around 300bhp then a Hybrid FMIC makes more sense. It doesn't cost much more (if any more) than converting to a STi 8 set up with associated undertray and larger bonnet scoop, is even more effective and does away with the issue of heat soak etc...

Claims of loss of response are exaggerated IMHO, providing you have the right supporting mods and 1st class mapping!

See here

https://www.scoobynet.com/scoobynet-...e-go-fmic.html

Jay m A

iTrader: (2)

Also there is no way a sti8 IC fits a ph1 car without modification, DV outlet / ISCV inteference for one.

leegtr

Well just my experience.

I have always not liked the idea of a top mount purely due to the heat soak when you are not moving and normally in the uk this is most of the time lol.

I went for the front mount intercooler and was a very good cost effective mod on the classic, plus I know it will always be there if the power was to increase from the 349 bhp it puts out so it is future proof

My humble view is front mount all the way but there are loads of people with the STI 8 TMIC so it cant be a bad option.

Jay m A

iTrader: (2)

Also if you do trackdays then a FMIC is a no brainer now that cost isn't a factor.

leeroywrx

iTrader: (10)

thanks for the quick response ive been trying to get in contact with harvey to have a chat about the hybrid fmic and fitting but havent been able to contact him

ex-webby

NS04,
Whilst there is more than one way to skin a cat, "1st class mapping" does not make a FMIC anymore responsive. On and off boost with a FMIC and TMIC has an affect. Remember people like Andy Forrest used TMIC designs for a number of years, as it was the most effective design with shorter pipe runs. Physics are physics mate.

I do appreciate though, that a STI8 does not just bolt on.... but the conversion is not that hard and has been done by many with excellent results.

IMHO for a standard turbo, the foremost avenue is a TMIC if possible.

Horses for courses.... but after personally having a TMIC before and then moving to one of the best FMIC's around (based on pressure drops etc), I would definately prefer the TMIC design. But in the real world, without going for a off-the-shelf fabrication, the FMIC route was the only way to go for my application.

ex-webby

leegtr,
Try measuring charge temps first, after you actually get going from being stationary. You may be very surprised how quick the temps come down with minor mods made to the inlet side, whilst using a STI8 TMIC.

Jay m A,
Do not agree as a sweeping statement (even though what you say does have merit, if you know what I mean)..... as above. Measure the charge temps.

At the end of the day we all have various ways to skin a cat, but how many people have actually tested what the STI8 TMIC is doing, before deciding a FMIC is the way to go?

I have done a load of tests, logging charge temps a few years back, which was backed up by tests that PowerStation / Litchfield did when developing the MkII Type25. The STI8 TMIC is very effective.

Jam Performance

iTrader: (3)

im running a FMIC on a 2.0, but im using a apexi power fc and avcr and the drive is very responsive and "lagless", its all in the mapping and how the avcr is setup

ex-webby

Call me a muppet (most people do lol), but how can anything to do with mapping curb any lack of response due to having to charging the pipework back up to pressure when coming back on acceleration?

I'm willing to be re-educated here in how an ECU keeps the pressure up or fills the void quicker.

leegtr

Fully agree the temperatures drop very fast once the car is moving again with a TMIC.

Just my personnel opinion that I like the temperatures never to be present at all, but loads (very clever tuners included) use the TMIC route so it is down to individual taste.

I certainly would not suggest that the uprated TMIC was a bad route at all just not my choice.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Oh yes, definately horses for courses, you need to balance what pros and cons.

For a MY99, when I was making inquiries, the costs quoted for supply and fit of an STi 8 TMIC with associated gubbins were actually greater than for supply and fit of the hybrid.

Mapping by itself won't resolve the response issue but in conjunction with the right supporting mods, I'd defy anyone to tell the difference; I think some of it is peeps being hoodwinked into thinking there is a delay from the racket the induction kit creates as the turbo spools! Honestly, I've not noticed any detriment in response between the OEM TMIC and the FMIC! I've taken the rather rare step of running without a DV on the already very responsive VF35 which may explain the lack of expected "elasticity" between gear changes that some have complained of(?).

Physics are physics as you say but that also applies to the principle that heat goes up!! As David at API said when I was doing my research, a TMIC is, fundamentally, in the wrong place! The pressure frop of the Hybrid is very small, I don't recall the figure off hand, but its stated in the literature.

The hybrid has also compared very well to much more expensive FMICs including, I believe, the APS, IIRC a very prominent mapper on commented on here that he was disapointed with its performance relative to the APS given the price difference

Bob commented that the FMIC had allowed 5 degrees extra of ignition advance to be added to my map....I'm not sure this would have been possible even with the STi 8 TMIC The difference in the punch when the turbo comes on song is very apparent.

Heat soak can be dissipated quickly on the road, but its not an issue at all with the FMIC and there are no "high speed sustained run woes" with the FMIC, the poster does have a classic bonnet with the associated aerodynamic inefficiencies...IMHO the requsite significantly bigger scoop for the STi 8 doesn't look right on classics.

To be perfectly clear, I'm not saying the STi 8 won't be perfectly adequate, I just think that you may as well go FMIC in a classic

ns04

ex-webby

NS04,

roflol @ your closing comment!

You obviously highlight some major positives for a FMIC, that I would not argue with.

It's hard for me to stick up for the TMIC, as I do have a FMIC. But they are awesome bits of kit that IMO, way too many people discount, when in fact for their application it is actually better suited.

On reverse.... ask Bob how effecient he found the STI8 TMIC, albeit with modified inlet and obviously the big bonnet scoop, as he did plenty of charge temp logging.

What a boring place this would be if we all did the same thing..... and bought a FMIC.

Henrik

iTrader: (5)

My experiences are from a 03 WRX, so not directly translatable vis-a-vis bonnet shapes etc, but:

Having had a FMIC and then gone to an STI top mount, I definitely prefer the responsiveness with the TMIC. Someone on here described the effect of an FMIC on throttle response as akin to having a rubber throttle cable and that's exactly what it feels like to me. There is a noticeable difference, at least on my car.

I'm still running exactly the same power as the FMIC, and my charge temp after a WOT run up third then fourth (1.6 bar from a td05-20g) gear to the red line was 8 degrees over ambient (29 vs 21 degrees). True, when sat in traffic, the charge temps climb to 50+ degrees, but I don't care because once the car is moving again, it quickly drops and I'm not much into drag-racing anyway

The turbo pulls just the same for me, but I have better throttle response, so I'm happier with my car now than I was with the FMIC.

The throttle response wasn't the main reason I went back (that's the crash impact bar), but it's a great additional benefit.

Keith Collings

iTrader: (3)

As someone who is considering a change to the intercooler on my MY98 Classic - is the only TMIC upgrade option an STI route ?.

Wondering if there are any other options with less fabrication but possibly more cost in cash - that gives a good increase in performance - looking to get to 320 BHP on a VF35/440s/Apexi - thanks.

lunar tick

iTrader: (2)

Echo the comments of Henrik here. I went from TMIC to FMIC then back to TMIC again as the throttle response just wasn't as crisp using a FMIC. As Henrik says - akin to feeling the throttle connected to the engine via elastic. However, I'm probably more sensitve to anything less than a pin sharp throttle response as I have spent quite a bit of time driving cars fitted with throttle bodies. On long, hard sustained throttle, a TMIC may lose a few bhp compared to a FMIC because of higher charge temperatures, but through the gears, the complete lack of lag when gear changing has made the car quicker on the road than when I had the FMIC. I'm now running 420bhp with a TMIC and will be moving into 450bhp territory soon - I intend to stay with my TMIC

bpm1588

has anyone fitted a sti 8 intercooler to a phase 1 car? i thought the sti5/6 just fitted and no more.

would love to hear if anyone has got one fitted and how hard it was to do.

frayz

iTrader: (7)

I agree with webbys every comment here.

i have just removed an STI7 TMIC to swap to an APS DR725.

With my FP green the charge temps were no problem whatsoever but im planning ahead and am due to fit a forged 2.5 soon.

In a 2lter the APS is massively laggy in comparisson, regardless of mapping etc.

There is a night day difference in the cars response.

For the record im also not running an DV so am keeping as much pressure in the cooler as possible.

typeRv4

to quote the master

AndyForrestPerformance

Intercoolers



The top mount intercooler (TMIC) which sits under the scoop on the top of the engine on all these cars can be susceptible to under-bonnet heat, especially following being stationary after heavy driving. For this reason it is sensible to allow the "heatsoak" to dissipate with good airflow at low boost after fast road driving or if you have had to sit stationary for a while.


The core area exposed to airflow and the volume and mass of the core have increased as the years progressed. The Samco or similar intercooler hoses available for the UK MY97-00 models have superior strength and airflow and are a very worthwhile modification.


The effectiveness of the OE intercoolers varies throughout the years. The early 93-96 slanty type will limit power to around 310 bhp whilst the 99-00 can run to around 330 bhp. The STI MY01 onwards is capable of over 450bhp with an appropriately sized turbo.

Fitting a later type intercooler is a popular upgrade although it is by no means a simple task. Some custom fabrication can be required in most cases. There are a number of after market top mount intercoolers which are true bolt on items which are capable of high 300 bhp.


The front mounted intercooler (FMIC) is an effective upgrade, particulary on the MY93-96 cars as it keeps the intercooler in a cool area reducing heat soak and ensures an adequate cool air flow at all speeds, the downside of fitting a FMIC before it is really necessary is the increased lag after a gearshift and sometimes it induces compressor surge.


Fitting complexity depends upon the manufacturer, in most cases cutting of the bumper is required. Off the shelf units are available to support up to 800 bhp.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

I don't get it!

Seriously, I was dreading reduced response with the FMIC; I had the knives out for it a bit, despite the reassurances of Bob, but it really didn't turn out that way; all I noticed was significantly increased punch (and a lot more noise)!

Ns04

turboDean

iTrader: (4)

I also agree with Webby's comments and i've had 2 different FMIC's

First i had one of the early Autobahn88 (with S/S pipes) this was dreadful and actually made my car noticably slower whilst running the TD04 when i switch to a VF34 and supporting mods it imporved things, but the boost response was still terrible when compared to a mates 01 Spec C RA which runs the same turbo and a standard top mount (Although does have the advantage of AVCS)
At this point i was considering swapping to an STI8 top mount but always had plans to go for 450bhp at which IMHO a FMIC is nessacary so bought a Hybrid GT Spec FMIC, when i fitted this i instantly seen and imporvement in spool and boost response after gear changes even without any map adjustments.
But i feel an STI8 TMIC would of given even better results with my 2.0 VF34 setup.

IMO if u have a 96> where an sti8 conversion is relativaly easy to do and u don't want over 400ish BHP then go for the STI8
If u have a <96 or plan to go for 450ish BHP then buy a decent FMIC.

DJ_Jon

iTrader: (7)

does the respose time make a difference on a 2.5 as opposed to a 2.0?

frayz

iTrader: (7)

It does make a difference on the 2.5 but nowhere near as noticable as on a 2ltr.
The added airflow of the 2.5 copes much better with filling a large volume IC

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Would it help if I got some videos of my AVCR monitoring boost/revs/throttle position so peeps can see exactly how responsive my FMIC set up is? Presumably would need someone to do the same with an STi 8 intercooler set up for the comparison everyone wants....anyone on here got the same mods as me???

Ns04

Tidgy

im running a front mount on my clasic and have NO lag, undrivability problems at all.

i'm still of the opinion that its all down to set up.

debbiesonic

iTrader: (7)

Come on guys, seriously, there is no way a front mount is ever going to have the exact same responsiveness as a top mount. Thats just common sense. Yes, the fmic will be safer and allow more power if you aiming for big power, but for a road car thats running subtle mods there is no way i would opt for a front mount.
I presume when you say it's all in the set up, that you mean you can run higher boost and more ign advance due to colder intake temps? In which case i would agree to an extent, but you still won't replicate the shortness of pipework on the tmic.
I'm sure there's some maths boffins out there that can work it out.... Lets say you have a 10 foot length of hose at a 3 inch diameter. Then we have a 1 foot length of hose at the same diameter. If you apply a pressure of 15 psi to one end of the 1 foot length of hose what is the time taken for it to come out of the opposite end? Then we need to know what pressure would need to applied to the 10 foot length to achieve the same time!

Jay m A

iTrader: (2)

Debbie, taking your example but changing the units:

10foot = 300cm
1foot = 30cm
3" tube = 7.6cm

Volume of a 10 foot pipe is 13609cc
Volume of a 1 foot pipe is 1361cc
differemce is 12248cc, or 12.2 litres.

A 2.0 litre engine consumes 1 litre of air per revolution, so a FMIC on a 2.0 car will be 12 rpm laggier.

I stand to be corrected on my calcs!