silent running

I'll keep it simple - my MY98 WRX just started rattling from the middle of the block, oil pressure is much lower than usual and oil temp a little higher. Been advised by my local experts that the crank is gone, and/or big end problem meaning a rebuild or engine swap.

What are my options? So far I can think of:

1. Get a cheapo complete lump and swap it straight over
2. Get a short block with a more certain background and rebuild from that
3. Inspect and rebuild my existing lump

One slight problem - I'm skint and a four figure bill will not be welcome at all. Any ideas on cost for the different options above? TBH I'm thinking of attempting an engine rebuild myself so that the only actual costs will be for say a new crank and bearings, assuming the rods are OK? Bear in mind I've never done an engine teardown or rebuild before, although I'll turn my hand to most things (spent the last week replacing all the hard pipes under the manifold with rubber hose just so I could get the inlet pipe on, turbo swaps I've done three of etc.)

Help!

tiny gsy

Sounds like your in the same position as me at the moment as my Sti 3 started doing the same on Thursday.

1. Only problem with this is you may end up in exactly the same position unless you know the previous owner of the engine and know how it was driven etc, then I`d suggest against it
2. A shot block isn`t going to be cheap. IIrc the group buy that was on here for 2.5 short blocks was around £1200
3. Have you rebuilt one before? Are you confident you`d be able to manage it yourself? Have you got an engine crane and all the right tools?

renno rannes

If you buy a second hand engine the same thing could happen as soon as you start it up. Id buy an EJ257 or an EJ20. They can be had brand new for reasonabley little money.

Renno

silent running

I am 90% sure I don't want something second hand. I've made that kind of mistake too many times. Problem is it's looking like rebuilding it myself is my only affordable option at the moment. That or breaking it, and even my wife doesn't want to do that!

I've got a pretty well stacked garage so that's not a problem and I can borrow an engine crane and a stand as well. I'll turn my hands to most jobs but I need to be told how to do them first - as I say, I've not had problems with turbo swaps, inlet manifold removals and modifications, rocker cover removal/refit (in situ!), fitting a FMIC etc etc. Never messed with engine internals though. If it's a case of putting parts together in the right places and tightening them up right, then yes I can do it.

Shmerman

iTrader: (14)

If I was you I would speak to some of the big guns that do rebuilds all day long. That way they can talk you through your options, give advice, and let you know weather a home rebuild is feasable. I have heard of people having the rebuild and fitting it themselvs but to attemp one myself.......well not sure I would risk it (likewise I had had the manifold of for fuel mod, changed turbos, ported headers).

David at APi is always pleasent and always willing to give advice even if he isnt going to get your business.
Likewise for Mark @Lateral performance
Zen performance
Scooby clinic.

Sorry to hear the bad news and best of luck. Which ever option you go for get it in the projects thread

Mike

ZEN Performance

Nick,

What did you do last time? And see how well that worked out!

I would recommend, either pay good money for a good rebuild, get a short engine and get it swapped over, or tackle the job yourself with the backup of a decent supplier/tuner and some sensible advice.

silent running

LOL yes it brings to mind the truest saying I ever heard - 'buy cheap, buy twice'. A semi-sleepless night has helped me realise I've invested too much spanner time in my Scoob to break it for parts now. I'm borrowing my mate's 205 GTi as a runaround for a while so I do have the luxury of time and a garage to work in, meaning I want to try and do as much as I can myself.

What I also realised is that a home rebuild will also mean cleaning everything out properly and checking everything over to see what is within tolerance and can be reused which is something I might struggle at/don't have the expertise or tools for.

Let's say I unbolted the gearbox (btw will that just rest on its own crossmember without the engine attached?) and pulled the engine out myself and stuck it on a stand, took the heads off, then bought a built-up short block, e.g. one of these £1200 2.5 STi jobs.

At a guess this is what I'd have to do - so correct me if I'm wrong:
1. Drain water and oil from engine
2. Undo all plumbing & wiring
3. Unbolt gearbox from engine (does it sit on its own mount comfortably without the engine attached?)
4. Remove exhaust, undo engine mounts and lift engine out (unbolt at downpipe also, leave turbo, u on?)
5. Remove belts and heads & inlet manifold
6. Send off oil pump for check/modification
7. Get new 2.5 short block (will my TD05-16G be too weedy for this job? Or will the 2.5 be too torquey for my 752 gearbox?)
8. Bolt heads to block with new head bolts/gaskets etc. Possibly widen out combustion chambers to match 2.5 bore and gaskets?
9. Lock crank and cams into correct position, time it all up with new belts.
10. Drop engine in (maybe new mounts), attach to gearbox
11. Reconnect water, fuel, inlet manifold, electrics etc.
12. Fill with fluids
13. Start up and hope for the best, take it for a remapping

I bet there's loads I've forgotten about!

gaz-cole

yes the gear box will sit on the x member and the engine is easy to take out, and the rest should be straight forward, the oil pump do you mean your original or the new one? as i would not use the old one.

silent running

I wasn't sure what the deal was with the oil pump. Can I assume it's knackered then and needs total replacement with a modified one, or can it be rebuilt, basically done on exchange?

gaz-cole

i would think for the price of a new modified one it would be false economy to reuse/rebuild one

silent running

OK that's fair enough. What about the actual taking apart of the block. Is it basically just a case of undoing a load of bolts? And putting it back together is down to being careful, following the instructions, using quality new parts and again, basically bolting stuff together? Any special tools needed? Will my existing block need cleaning out or preparing in any other way?

gaz-cole

yes thats about it just give it through cleaning and get it measured up to make sure it is still within tolerance and take your time putting it back together, as for special tools just a torque wrench and an angle gauge for the head bolts.

silent running

Is the cleaning something I can myself with a jetwash or does it need to go to a specialist for a bath of some sort? And is the measuring a DIY job as well? I have a set of feeler gauges for gapping plugs and a fairly inaccurate caliper gauge that is OK for measuring brake disc width and pipe bores etc, but not much accuracy below 1mm?

bmfcrash

iTrader: (14)

Dont want to pee on your parade here BUT..... If I were you I would find the funds to let the likes of API rebuild it for you. Any of the specialists will have chemical baths for washing the parts, and the inspection equipment for pressure testing heads/lapping them bore mics and mics for measuring if pistons/bores ect are within tolerence.
There is more to rebuilding an engine than just big boys mechano, even doing the work yourself how gutted would you be if it went **** up as you still have had to pay out for parts (full gasket set, shells,rings ect....)
I have built them in the past, but left mine to an expert as it just saves all the worry and heartache.
Your call, but think carefully and get somebody who has built more than the odd one to help.

merlin24

iTrader: (1)

Not against anyone doing their own engine rebuild if they feel confident in doing so(especially in the current economic climate) but bear in mind the measuring of the block,piston/bore clearance/big end and main bearing oil clearances on the crank are critical for an effective rebuild.

Just my 2 pence worth.

renno rannes

Id also have one of the named above rebuild it for you. OR buy a new ej257 or ej20 and do the rest yourself.

Renno

NUTTYNICK

I've not rebuilt an EJ engine (yet), but have tackled many Pug 205 engines including a full refurbishment of an Mi that went in my 205. I had a garden shed with a few shelves dotted around to place the parts on. It sounds like you are confident to tackle the task and it can be done quite effectively. You will need the services of an engine builder though to either regrind/polish the crank and supply the necessary oversized or standard bearings.

The problem with engine rebuilds is the 'where to stop' mentallity. You could end up replacing everything (pistons etc). Basic new buys I suggest, would be the oil and water pump, piston rings and gudgeon pin circlips. If you were happy with your engine prior to the rattle, and simply want rid of the rattle, then leave everthing else alone.

If you can get hold of a back copy of Japanese Performance March 08, it describes a basic outline for stripping the EJ20 engine down. There are also a few youtube clips about removing the pistons believe it or not. To be honest, it all looks pretty simple, no real special tools necessary.

Rebuilding is the hardest as you need to ensure everything is very clean. Lots of whitespirit, rag and elbow grease was my only option to clean out the inside of the crankcase back to shiny ally. Took a while but it was worth it and not too difficult. Obviously quicker to get it in a parts washer but impractical for me.

Keep everything in labelled plastic bags, all components lightly lubed with some engine oil, and plenty of pics of engine strip (including pipe removal) should see you right.

I personally say go for it. A crank regrind and bearings should be around £100 or so, not much more if in fact less. The guys that do this for you should also be able to get hold of the gasket sets, gudgeon pin circlips and piston rings.

Special tools for this would be a piston ring compressor (cheap from machinemart or similar), browse any haynes manual for tips on refitting rings (although you will need to get the data for ring gap).

With all the new gaskets and crank work, I reckon the cost would be around the £250 mark. Plus when it fires up and sounds great, you'll have the satisfaction of knowing you did it

silent running

very very interesting...cheers for all the replies so far. If I had the money I would have no doubt about getting API to do the build for me, they did a great job on my transmission and were very accomodating.

But at the same time, money's very tight and the car may be off the road for 4 months if I have to save up to pay an expert to do the build. I can even get hold of a used crank locally for £150 (they are pretty tough unless they've had actual damage aren't they?) The worry I now have is that debris from the rattling has got all round the engine including the heads and the whole thing wants to be stripped down really. One thing I don't want to start pulling apart is the heads.

Coincidentally, I'm now driving my mate's 205 GTi until I get the Scoob fixed. He just dropped a 1.9 into it so it goes well - maybe I'll go back to French hatches permanently! This Scoob seems cursed.

NUTTYNICK

I said that about the 205 on many many occasions. I know it all seems to add up to bad news.

Drain the oil on the scoob, run a magnet through it and see what sort of debris you get. Unless the clattering is really bad, there probably isn't too much damage, just long term wear. Admittedly, the longer you leave it and more you drive, the worse it will get and you may experience a major break down of bearings or worse still, spin a bearing which can damage the block.

As long as you are confident that the crank is good and can get matching bearings, go for it. Find that engine builder though as it may save you £20 or £30 to get it refurbished. There are statements of getting a new crank is more cost effective due to grinding causing swarf to build up and block the oil galleries. A decent engine builder will rid the crank of all swarf.

Preparation is the major key to a rebuild, ensure all is perfectly clean. If you can get hold of some parafin to wash parts down this is great. A squirty bottle from garden stores full of white spirit or parafin is great for flushing out galleries etc.

You will only really know the extent of the damage and potential debris, once stripped down which you are going to have to do anyhow.

silent running

Yes good idea, I'll need to get the oil drained anyway so I'll give it a go.

NUTTYNICK

The magnet will obviously only work on ferrous material (crank), but if the oil is metallic in colour, then the bearings have broken down considerably. A lot depends on the frequency of oil changes. All a bit of common sense really.

Eprom

It's not recommended to re-grind the crank on these engines, for 1 you will have to make sure all the debris is removed after machining, but the material removed eats into the hardening process, that is used to treat the cranks. Do not rely on the machine shop to make sure it is clean.

The hardest part of the re-build is to measure everything before re-fitting; you will need so specialist tools for this, and the specifications to measure against.
My motto is measure twice fit once.
Parts that must be relpaced are oil pump, mondine oil cooler, if the bearings are shot, the debris gets circulated around the engine, so you will find the heads will need a strip and clean.

Welloilbeefhooked

iTrader: (3)

Silent,

I'm just looking to start building a new engine for mine at the moment. The way I look at it is that either a short EJ257 or EJ20 is the best way to go with minimal building and fuss, just needs your other parts.

Also, have you checked out the price of full gasket sets to rebuild it yourself?

I would normally rebuild my own engines and have always done this. I once rebuild my 1760 x-flow and somehow missed some crap in an oil way and knackered a bearing within 10 mins of running.

On a cheapo engine like the above its just a pain, on a subaru engine its a pain and expensive!

Let me know if you are thinking about a group buy or similar as I may buy a short block too. I also know a few places that will alter the heads to suit too.

Wayne.

dazdavies

iTrader: (22)

To do the job yourself which isn't massively difficult would cost you around £1500

Thats £150 for bearings bigends and mains
£500 for the crank
£300 for gasket kit
£180 for RCMS oil pump.

If you've caught it early enough your block and pistons should be fine. Just get it checked to be sure.

For not much more money you could go the EJ257 route.

I was in your predicament a couple of years back. I didn't have a clue. The only thing I'd done remotely mechanical before that was an inlet manifold gasket on my 2.8i capri when i was 19!!!

I bought £300 worth of tools from Halford and a CD workshop manual on Ebay for fiver and cracked on with it. The result was a reliable 400bhp 2.0L engine.

I'm now working on my next rebuild a 600bhp closed deck 2.5

I did a whole project thread on it here DIY 450 bhp Classic 2.0L [Archive] -
It might be a good point of reference for you.

My advice would be don't be scared. Have a go yourself. It's very rewarding at the end of it.

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Sory to hear this

But it comes down to how much you value your time and how much you would trust it afterwards if there was just one iota of a doubt about something you did and if that one bolt etc wasnt torqued completely right it would have to come out again.

Plasterers make most of their money from repairing the jobs that people start at home thinking it would be easy.

I wouldnt make the same mistake - pay an expert to build your engine and it should last for years of worry free motoring. I chose to get Area 52 Autosport (Scoobymania) to build mine and am very pleased with what they have done. Of the other experts out there Zen Performance would be top of the list.

As an alternative a complete brand new short block isnt that much if you wanted to tackle the build yourself knowing that the core of the engine is as it should be and would be a great base for future mods.

silent running

Yes I'm still torn between whether to drop in a short block or do the whole build. Either way it won't be cheap. Time is something don't mind spending - I enjoy learning new stuff and value the skills I get out of it. There was a time not so long ago when I'd struggle to change oil.

Something which I've heard is that a 2.5 short block might not be as 'plug & play' as I thought, if doing the job properly, using classic heads and inlet manifold.

As far as the £300 gaskets thing, I'd not really thought too long and hard about how much they might be. How much of that cost is contained within the short block i.e. how much less gasket cost would there be if the short block was already built up for me?

dazdavies

iTrader: (22)

a built shrot block will save you about about £6 on gaskets and seals.

couple of o ring seals thats it!!

Welloilbeefhooked

iTrader: (3)

Daz, I think he already has a "shrot" block mate and doesn't need another!!

Seriously, is that all that is saved by the short motor? Looks like I'm buying the gasket kit and short motor then!

Also, I have only just seen the AndyF group buy for the 2.5's. Shame its ended!

Wayne.

dazdavies

iTrader: (22)

To be honest the gasket kit is overkill as you can build an engine and buy just the essential seals and gaskets. The proper kit comes with every gasket and seal you'll need plus lots of extras but it's the best way to do it.

If you buy a built short block you dont have to buy three o ring seals, 1 crank oil seal and one oil pump seal that's it. Its all the others like cam seals, head gaskets, rocker cover gaskets etc. Which you'll need regardless if you have a built short motor or not.

If doing the DIY route, dont forget to remove the clutch pivot or you'll never get the engine out. First timers over look this!!

You take of the starter motor ( 2x 14mm bolts) then behind that there is a 10mm Hex cap that needs removing. Once you get that off you'll need a 4cm or longer m4 bolt you screw this into the end of the clutch pivot and slide it out.

This enable you lift the clutch fork out of the release bearing. Then you'll be able to split the box and the engine.

The best money you'll ever spend is a couple of quid on a Workshop manual on CD from Ebay.

dazdavies

iTrader: (22)

To be honest the gasket kit is overkill as you can build an engine and buy just the essential seals and gaskets. The proper kit comes with every gasket and seal you'll need plus lots of extras but it's the best way to do it.

If you buy a built short block you dont have to buy three o ring seals, 1 crank oil seal and one oil pump seal that's it. Its all the others like cam seals, head gaskets, rocker cover gaskets etc. Which you'll need regardless if you have a built short motor or not.

If doing the DIY route, dont forget to remove the clutch pivot or you'll never get the engine out. First timers over look this!!

You take of the starter motor ( 2x 14mm bolts) then behind that there is a 10mm Hex cap that needs removing. Once you get that off you'll need a 4cm or longer m4 bolt you screw this into the end of the clutch pivot and slide it out.

This enable you lift the clutch fork out of the release bearing. Then you'll be able to split the box and the engine.

The best money you'll ever spend is a couple of quid on a Workshop manual on CD from Ebay.