What ECU?
03 November 2007, 06:12 AM
#1
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What ECU?
Hi all,
I have just brought an Sti V4 and will be looking to upgrade the engine in the very near future, i am under the impression that i will be needing a new ECU so i am looking for recommendations as to what to change it too the obvious ones are Apexi, LINK, Autronics, Gems, but i have no experience of any of them.
What say you the experts?
I have just brought an Sti V4 and will be looking to upgrade the engine in the very near future, i am under the impression that i will be needing a new ECU so i am looking for recommendations as to what to change it too the obvious ones are Apexi, LINK, Autronics, Gems, but i have no experience of any of them.
What say you the experts?
03 November 2007, 09:13 AM
#2
Im saving up for an APEXI. They seem to be highly thought of on this forum. I guess its down to the person who installs it, to get the best out of it. Thats why im going to get Andy Forrest to fit mine.
Last edited by slipstream_uk; 03 November 2007 at 04:26 PM. Reason: .
03 November 2007, 03:25 PM
#4
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SimTek all the way ,full plug and play unit which allows you to ditch the MAF...Switchable maps and full charge temp compensation , full in gear closed loop boost control , water spray control and the list goes on...
Antilag and launch control are available as optional extras neither of which are available on the APexi...
Antilag and launch control are available as optional extras neither of which are available on the APexi...
04 November 2007, 12:50 AM
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Apexi is tried and tested with excellent results from looooads of users, can ditch the maf when used with the mafsim and can be mapped by a various number of mappers.
You can get it supplied fitted and mapped for £800 give or take.....
You can get it supplied fitted and mapped for £800 give or take.....
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04 November 2007, 10:23 PM
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why would he need a mafsim? not sure why that has been added?
The STi4 maf is perfectly good.. not that there is anything wrong with mafsim's either but not necessary until going over 400.. ie. maxxing out available mafs.
Simon
The STi4 maf is perfectly good.. not that there is anything wrong with mafsim's either but not necessary until going over 400.. ie. maxxing out available mafs.
Simon
05 November 2007, 11:39 AM
#11
This is from another thread:
I understand Smiffy wants 400 bhp plus.
The Apexi will do the job and is a cheaper option but boost control is not particularly good so you will possibly want to add an Apexi AVC-R. At that point, at £940 inclusive of VAT fitted the Simtek has to be very high on your list. Closed loop boost control is good with in gear boost and many more features which makes it very attractive.
I have one on my WRX Wagon and was suitably impressed, 12 months on, to add a second to my STi 3 Wagon.
The AVC-R that was on my WRX Wagon with the Apexi Power FC has now been sold as it was no longer required.
not sure what else to say really.. I am disappointed the Link lacks the knock control or monitoring other than the G3 linkplus which is newage only.... so you need to factor in the cost of a knock link or equivalent.. the VEMs is a no show so far. .although I must ring them..
the Simtek ticks all the right boxes..
the Apexi with mafsim also works well and is ideal really for someone already running an Apexi and wants to go MAP due to big mods etc.. but was really looking at someone starting from a fresh and wanting a MAP based ecu etc for around the 1000 fitted and mapped.
Simon .
the Simtek ticks all the right boxes..
the Apexi with mafsim also works well and is ideal really for someone already running an Apexi and wants to go MAP due to big mods etc.. but was really looking at someone starting from a fresh and wanting a MAP based ecu etc for around the 1000 fitted and mapped.
Simon .
The Apexi will do the job and is a cheaper option but boost control is not particularly good so you will possibly want to add an Apexi AVC-R. At that point, at £940 inclusive of VAT fitted the Simtek has to be very high on your list. Closed loop boost control is good with in gear boost and many more features which makes it very attractive.
I have one on my WRX Wagon and was suitably impressed, 12 months on, to add a second to my STi 3 Wagon.
The AVC-R that was on my WRX Wagon with the Apexi Power FC has now been sold as it was no longer required.
Last edited by harvey; 05 November 2007 at 12:09 PM.
06 November 2007, 12:08 AM
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This is from another thread:
I understand Smiffy wants 400 bhp plus.
The Apexi will do the job and is a cheaper option but boost control is not particularly good so you will possibly want to add an Apexi AVC-R. At that point, at £940 inclusive of VAT fitted the Simtek has to be very high on your list. Closed loop boost control is good with in gear boost and many more features which makes it very attractive.
I have one on my WRX Wagon and was suitably impressed, 12 months on, to add a second to my STi 3 Wagon.
The AVC-R that was on my WRX Wagon with the Apexi Power FC has now been sold as it was no longer required.
I understand Smiffy wants 400 bhp plus.
The Apexi will do the job and is a cheaper option but boost control is not particularly good so you will possibly want to add an Apexi AVC-R. At that point, at £940 inclusive of VAT fitted the Simtek has to be very high on your list. Closed loop boost control is good with in gear boost and many more features which makes it very attractive.
I have one on my WRX Wagon and was suitably impressed, 12 months on, to add a second to my STi 3 Wagon.
The AVC-R that was on my WRX Wagon with the Apexi Power FC has now been sold as it was no longer required.
06 November 2007, 05:24 PM
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The Apexi Power FC is more than capable of controlling enough power to overcome the std turbo, intercooler, injectors, pistons, rods, clutch and gearbox.
Once you have spent the £10K plus upgrading that list then....... it may be time to look at the ECU again.
On an Sti4 MAF up to 450bhp the PFC is ideal, the 4 boost settings also allow the user to control the power output.
The Sti4 with its 3 port solenoid valve will control the boost very well via the ECU so no need for an AVCR.
Andy
Once you have spent the £10K plus upgrading that list then....... it may be time to look at the ECU again.
On an Sti4 MAF up to 450bhp the PFC is ideal, the 4 boost settings also allow the user to control the power output.
The Sti4 with its 3 port solenoid valve will control the boost very well via the ECU so no need for an AVCR.
Andy
Last edited by Andy.F; 06 November 2007 at 05:29 PM.
06 November 2007, 10:31 PM
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The Apexi ECU has full boost control built in. It can control boost up to the limit of the original map sensor which is approx 1.7 bar on version 3-6 or 97-00 UK cars.
Andy
Andy
07 November 2007, 07:35 PM
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On a v2 (1995 car) what would the limit be?
how would I go about uprating the map sensor? is it just a case of changing the sensor and that alterating the calibration in the ecu?
how would I go about uprating the map sensor? is it just a case of changing the sensor and that alterating the calibration in the ecu?
07 November 2007, 11:23 PM
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depends on the ecu.. on the ESL daughter board you can use a later spec map sensor from a 97 onwards car.. on the Apexi PowerFC you can use the map sensor from the Apexi boost control kit.. or you use a different method of boost control.
09 November 2007, 11:54 PM
#21
A lot of people with the Apexi Power FC have been sold Apexi AVC-R to aid boost control.
My understanding is that the Apexi Power FC has a single target boost whereas the Simtek has a 3D fully mappable boost strategy with closed loop boost control.
Have you examined the Simtek software?
The Simtek has so many features that it really should not be compared with the Apexi.
Another point, and again I am sure I will be corrected if wrong, is that pre 97MY Power FC ECUs are no longer in production and I do wonder if the 97/98 model year will be dropped in the near future. So that raises questions of support available if something goes wrong with the hardware.
I understand that those holding large stocks of Power FC will be under pressure to move them on but there are now several more capable ECU options not just the Simtek but its ability is increasingly recognised with an increasing dealer network that now includes Bob Rawle (BRD), Pat Herbron is happily mapping them for API Engines and Simon Roe (Jolly Green Monster) has already said the Simtek ticks all the boxes.
For these and other reasons I think Smiffy would be making a wise choice with the Simtek but there would be some uncertainties if he opted for the Apexi.
My understanding is that the Apexi Power FC has a single target boost whereas the Simtek has a 3D fully mappable boost strategy with closed loop boost control.
Have you examined the Simtek software?
The Simtek has so many features that it really should not be compared with the Apexi.
Another point, and again I am sure I will be corrected if wrong, is that pre 97MY Power FC ECUs are no longer in production and I do wonder if the 97/98 model year will be dropped in the near future. So that raises questions of support available if something goes wrong with the hardware.
I understand that those holding large stocks of Power FC will be under pressure to move them on but there are now several more capable ECU options not just the Simtek but its ability is increasingly recognised with an increasing dealer network that now includes Bob Rawle (BRD), Pat Herbron is happily mapping them for API Engines and Simon Roe (Jolly Green Monster) has already said the Simtek ticks all the boxes.
For these and other reasons I think Smiffy would be making a wise choice with the Simtek but there would be some uncertainties if he opted for the Apexi.
10 November 2007, 01:23 AM
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I really don't think this method of slagging something off to promote something else works Harvey and it really doesn't show the item or yourself in a good light imho.
I have had a Simtek ecu to evaluate and I was impressed enough to say yes I would like to become a dealer of them, I have a customer booked in later this month for one, my website is in the process of a complete rewrite and includes the Simtek within my services but to be honest I am currently wondering if that was a good move..
Just the constant "mines better than yours" is so petty.
in your own words
So please please please stop it.. let the ecu promote itself..
Simon
I have had a Simtek ecu to evaluate and I was impressed enough to say yes I would like to become a dealer of them, I have a customer booked in later this month for one, my website is in the process of a complete rewrite and includes the Simtek within my services but to be honest I am currently wondering if that was a good move..
Just the constant "mines better than yours" is so petty.
in your own words
It really should not be compared with the Apexi
Simon
10 November 2007, 11:07 AM
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Yes I have.
Andy
Last edited by Andy.F; 29 January 2008 at 08:07 PM.
29 November 2007, 01:06 AM
#24
Hey Simon: Somebody has just referred me back to this thread asking questions about the Simtek.
Firstly I would like to pick up on some of what you have said:
I am not slagging off, (as you put it) the Apexi ECU but I am pointing out quite significant differences. This will be quite obvious to any dispassionate reader.
I don't know anything about "mines better than yours" After all you did agree with me that on this occasion the Simtek was the best ECU for the job.
I don't know where you are coming from with this but like you said, the Simtek is selling itself and I am sure there is no shortage of people wanting to sell it, so I guess one of the criterion will be the selection of committed dealers.
If you get off giving me lectures from behind your keyboard, that is your problem. Let us stick to the facts.
My interest is simply to ensure Smiffy (or any other Scoobynetter) gets the best possible advice and is appraised of the advantages and disadvantages. I hope you are not suggesting that the information I provide should be supressed, including the fact that Apexi are no longer manufacturing Power FCs for early cars (not just Subarus).
The reason you should not compare the Apexi with the Simtek is that the latter has far more features as standard along with some useful add ons. You don't compare a V.W. Beatle with a Subaru WRX even if both have a flat 4 engine and both get you from A to B. After all the WRX has 4 wheel drive and many more features. If you want to compare the Simtek with something more equal then look at the GEMS or even the Motec M400, both costing a good bit more than the Simtek.
Before the Apexi can bear comparision in this instance you will need to add an Apexi AVC-R and even then you lack a lot of the features of the basic Simtek including Air Charge Temperature compensation. I am not knocking the Apexi but the additional features of the Simtek make it a better choice on this occasion and that is all I am saying. Indeed, you did say yourself that the Simtek ticked all the right boxes. I am glad we agree on that.
I accept there are situations where the Apexi is an adequate cost effective option but this is not one of them so let's move on.
Andy Forrest :
Yes it has four user selectable boost targets but each one individually selected. If you select boost target as 1.2 bar that is what the turbo tries to make at 3000 rpm and 7000 rpm so if you select 1.6 bar that is what the turbo is trying to make at 3000 rpm and 7000 rpm whereas with a 3D mappable system it is possible to map in the boost rate with higher mid range boost for improved torque and reduced boost target higher up the rev range so the turbo is still operating within its efficiency envelope.
This gives the turbo an easier time and by mapping allows the turbo to be matched to the engine characteristics and capabilities.
I have not seen software on the Apexi that allows the boost to be mapped in this way but if it is there please let me know where to find it.
As the Simtek has fully mappable boost control with in gear boost as standard there is no need for an AVC-R but I do note that a lot of Power FC users make use of an AVC-R.
Another advantage with the Simtek is the ability to decide how much boost you want relative to throttle position and this can make the car feel very willing when you have relatively high boost levels at modest percentage throttle position.
Indeed the Simtek ECU has two self learning facilities which identify the degree and speed of correction required to achieve and maintain target boost and this is far superior than anything I have seen, even on more expensive ECUs.
Launch Control and Anti Lag are optional extras and very attractive to those of us that want to use our road cars at the drag strip on a weekend. With the MAF less system there is no need to change the MAF sensor body and wiring which is necessary on many cars well before 400 bhp as you well know and certainly around that figure on the STi 3/4 so here again the Simtek accomodates project creep.
Another advantage is that ditching the MAF sensor body makes it far simpler to produce a more efficient inlet tract.
What features are not safe to employ and why ???
If the 93 - 96 Apexi is no longer in production, how long will supplies last and will there be discounted end of line just as there are when car manufacturers cease a model line ?
Firstly I would like to pick up on some of what you have said:
I really don't think this method of slagging something off to promote something else works Harvey and it really doesn't show the item or yourself in a good light imho.
Just the constant "mines better than yours" is so petty.
Just the constant "mines better than yours" is so petty.
I don't know anything about "mines better than yours" After all you did agree with me that on this occasion the Simtek was the best ECU for the job.
my website is in the process of a complete rewrite and includes the Simtek within my services but to be honest I am currently wondering if that was a good move..
So please please please stop it.. let the ecu promote itself..
Simon
Simon
If you get off giving me lectures from behind your keyboard, that is your problem. Let us stick to the facts.
My interest is simply to ensure Smiffy (or any other Scoobynetter) gets the best possible advice and is appraised of the advantages and disadvantages. I hope you are not suggesting that the information I provide should be supressed, including the fact that Apexi are no longer manufacturing Power FCs for early cars (not just Subarus).
The reason you should not compare the Apexi with the Simtek is that the latter has far more features as standard along with some useful add ons. You don't compare a V.W. Beatle with a Subaru WRX even if both have a flat 4 engine and both get you from A to B. After all the WRX has 4 wheel drive and many more features. If you want to compare the Simtek with something more equal then look at the GEMS or even the Motec M400, both costing a good bit more than the Simtek.
Before the Apexi can bear comparision in this instance you will need to add an Apexi AVC-R and even then you lack a lot of the features of the basic Simtek including Air Charge Temperature compensation. I am not knocking the Apexi but the additional features of the Simtek make it a better choice on this occasion and that is all I am saying. Indeed, you did say yourself that the Simtek ticked all the right boxes. I am glad we agree on that.
I accept there are situations where the Apexi is an adequate cost effective option but this is not one of them so let's move on.
Andy Forrest :
The Apexi has 4 user selectable boost targets, each one has full closed loop control.
This gives the turbo an easier time and by mapping allows the turbo to be matched to the engine characteristics and capabilities.
I have not seen software on the Apexi that allows the boost to be mapped in this way but if it is there please let me know where to find it.
As the Simtek has fully mappable boost control with in gear boost as standard there is no need for an AVC-R but I do note that a lot of Power FC users make use of an AVC-R.
Another advantage with the Simtek is the ability to decide how much boost you want relative to throttle position and this can make the car feel very willing when you have relatively high boost levels at modest percentage throttle position.
Indeed the Simtek ECU has two self learning facilities which identify the degree and speed of correction required to achieve and maintain target boost and this is far superior than anything I have seen, even on more expensive ECUs.
Some of the features are either optional at extra cost, not safe to employ or simply not required on a road car, maf-less is really only an advantage on 99/00 cars due to the frail maf sensor fitted to that year, up to 450bhp on a version 4 maf (this thread topic) is not an issue regards driveability or reliability.
Another advantage is that ditching the MAF sensor body makes it far simpler to produce a more efficient inlet tract.
What features are not safe to employ and why ???
If the 93 - 96 Apexi is no longer in production, how long will supplies last and will there be discounted end of line just as there are when car manufacturers cease a model line ?
Last edited by harvey; 29 November 2007 at 01:43 AM.
29 November 2007, 03:06 AM
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Hey Simon: Somebody has just referred me back to this thread asking questions about the Simtek.
Firstly I would like to pick up on some of what you have said:
I am not slagging off, (as you put it) the Apexi ECU but I am pointing out quite significant differences. This will be quite obvious to any dispassionate reader.
I don't know anything about "mines better than yours" After all you did agree with me that on this occasion the Simtek was the best ECU for the job.
I don't know where you are coming from with this but like you said, the Simtek is selling itself and I am sure there is no shortage of people wanting to sell it, so I guess one of the criterion will be the selection of committed dealers.
If you get off giving me lectures from behind your keyboard, that is your problem. Let us stick to the facts.
My interest is simply to ensure Smiffy (or any other Scoobynetter) gets the best possible advice and is appraised of the advantages and disadvantages. I hope you are not suggesting that the information I provide should be supressed, including the fact that Apexi are no longer manufacturing Power FCs for early cars (not just Subarus).
The reason you should not compare the Apexi with the Simtek is that the latter has far more features as standard along with some useful add ons. You don't compare a V.W. Beatle with a Subaru WRX even if both have a flat 4 engine and both get you from A to B. After all the WRX has 4 wheel drive and many more features. If you want to compare the Simtek with something more equal then look at the GEMS or even the Motec M400, both costing a good bit more than the Simtek.
Before the Apexi can bear comparision in this instance you will need to add an Apexi AVC-R and even then you lack a lot of the features of the basic Simtek including Air Charge Temperature compensation. I am not knocking the Apexi but the additional features of the Simtek make it a better choice on this occasion and that is all I am saying. Indeed, you did say yourself that the Simtek ticked all the right boxes. I am glad we agree on that.
I accept there are situations where the Apexi is an adequate cost effective option but this is not one of them so let's move on.
Andy Forrest :
Yes it has four user selectable boost targets but each one individually selected. If you select boost target as 1.2 bar that is what the turbo tries to make at 3000 rpm and 7000 rpm so if you select 1.6 bar that is what the turbo is trying to make at 3000 rpm and 7000 rpm whereas with a 3D mappable system it is possible to map in the boost rate with higher mid range boost for improved torque and reduced boost target higher up the rev range so the turbo is still operating within its efficiency envelope.
This gives the turbo an easier time and by mapping allows the turbo to be matched to the engine characteristics and capabilities.
I have not seen software on the Apexi that allows the boost to be mapped in this way but if it is there please let me know where to find it.
As the Simtek has fully mappable boost control with in gear boost as standard there is no need for an AVC-R but I do note that a lot of Power FC users make use of an AVC-R.
Another advantage with the Simtek is the ability to decide how much boost you want relative to throttle position and this can make the car feel very willing when you have relatively high boost levels at modest percentage throttle position.
Indeed the Simtek ECU has two self learning facilities which identify the degree and speed of correction required to achieve and maintain target boost and this is far superior than anything I have seen, even on more expensive ECUs.
Launch Control and Anti Lag are optional extras and very attractive to those of us that want to use our road cars at the drag strip on a weekend. With the MAF less system there is no need to change the MAF sensor body and wiring which is necessary on many cars well before 400 bhp as you well know and certainly around that figure on the STi 3/4 so here again the Simtek accomodates project creep.
Another advantage is that ditching the MAF sensor body makes it far simpler to produce a more efficient inlet tract.
What features are not safe to employ and why ???
If the 93 - 96 Apexi is no longer in production, how long will supplies last and will there be discounted end of line just as there are when car manufacturers cease a model line ?
Firstly I would like to pick up on some of what you have said:
I am not slagging off, (as you put it) the Apexi ECU but I am pointing out quite significant differences. This will be quite obvious to any dispassionate reader.
I don't know anything about "mines better than yours" After all you did agree with me that on this occasion the Simtek was the best ECU for the job.
I don't know where you are coming from with this but like you said, the Simtek is selling itself and I am sure there is no shortage of people wanting to sell it, so I guess one of the criterion will be the selection of committed dealers.
If you get off giving me lectures from behind your keyboard, that is your problem. Let us stick to the facts.
My interest is simply to ensure Smiffy (or any other Scoobynetter) gets the best possible advice and is appraised of the advantages and disadvantages. I hope you are not suggesting that the information I provide should be supressed, including the fact that Apexi are no longer manufacturing Power FCs for early cars (not just Subarus).
The reason you should not compare the Apexi with the Simtek is that the latter has far more features as standard along with some useful add ons. You don't compare a V.W. Beatle with a Subaru WRX even if both have a flat 4 engine and both get you from A to B. After all the WRX has 4 wheel drive and many more features. If you want to compare the Simtek with something more equal then look at the GEMS or even the Motec M400, both costing a good bit more than the Simtek.
Before the Apexi can bear comparision in this instance you will need to add an Apexi AVC-R and even then you lack a lot of the features of the basic Simtek including Air Charge Temperature compensation. I am not knocking the Apexi but the additional features of the Simtek make it a better choice on this occasion and that is all I am saying. Indeed, you did say yourself that the Simtek ticked all the right boxes. I am glad we agree on that.
I accept there are situations where the Apexi is an adequate cost effective option but this is not one of them so let's move on.
Andy Forrest :
Yes it has four user selectable boost targets but each one individually selected. If you select boost target as 1.2 bar that is what the turbo tries to make at 3000 rpm and 7000 rpm so if you select 1.6 bar that is what the turbo is trying to make at 3000 rpm and 7000 rpm whereas with a 3D mappable system it is possible to map in the boost rate with higher mid range boost for improved torque and reduced boost target higher up the rev range so the turbo is still operating within its efficiency envelope.
This gives the turbo an easier time and by mapping allows the turbo to be matched to the engine characteristics and capabilities.
I have not seen software on the Apexi that allows the boost to be mapped in this way but if it is there please let me know where to find it.
As the Simtek has fully mappable boost control with in gear boost as standard there is no need for an AVC-R but I do note that a lot of Power FC users make use of an AVC-R.
Another advantage with the Simtek is the ability to decide how much boost you want relative to throttle position and this can make the car feel very willing when you have relatively high boost levels at modest percentage throttle position.
Indeed the Simtek ECU has two self learning facilities which identify the degree and speed of correction required to achieve and maintain target boost and this is far superior than anything I have seen, even on more expensive ECUs.
Launch Control and Anti Lag are optional extras and very attractive to those of us that want to use our road cars at the drag strip on a weekend. With the MAF less system there is no need to change the MAF sensor body and wiring which is necessary on many cars well before 400 bhp as you well know and certainly around that figure on the STi 3/4 so here again the Simtek accomodates project creep.
Another advantage is that ditching the MAF sensor body makes it far simpler to produce a more efficient inlet tract.
What features are not safe to employ and why ???
If the 93 - 96 Apexi is no longer in production, how long will supplies last and will there be discounted end of line just as there are when car manufacturers cease a model line ?
Simon
29 November 2007, 07:51 AM
#26
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I can see where you are coming from Simon and agree that the SimTek has a very good chance of promoting itself based on its performance...
I can also see where Harvey is coming from , he is a CUSTOMER who is very happy with the performance of his 2 SimTek ecus and is passionate enough to want to tell people of this at every available opportunity...
I can also see where Harvey is coming from , he is a CUSTOMER who is very happy with the performance of his 2 SimTek ecus and is passionate enough to want to tell people of this at every available opportunity...
01 December 2007, 12:45 AM
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I think you assume I am having a go specifically at you Harvey which is not the case
I really don't think this method of slagging something off to promote something else works Harvey and it really doesn't show the item or yourself in a good light imho.
If I go Ecutek I still have the MAF on the P1 but if I go Simtek what are the other advantages ?
Last edited by p1dazza; 01 December 2007 at 12:47 AM. Reason: spell
01 December 2007, 09:45 AM
#28
Scooby Regular
Full closed loop in gear boost control , map switching , live mapping , intercooler water spray or injection control , optional antilag and launch control...
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