CVH

Hi all can anyone tell me what happens when you take your car to get the ppp ie how long does it take,wht do they do and is it worth it? I have a 06 wrx hawkeye.
Thanks.

steve_wr1

the ppp is usually-

prodrive sports cat downpipe
prodrive 2nd decat pipe
silicone hose from the turbo to intercooler
prodrive backbox
prodrive ecu
uprated fuel pump
think wrx gets a decatted up pipe too

dont know how long they take to fit.doing it with aftermarket parts and ecutek remap works out a touch cheaper but better results.that may void warranty though if you have one.

greg2222

iTrader: (1)

How much it Cost The PPP for wrx 2001 and where i can get it done around southampton

53

iTrader: (41)

Sadly the list is a little shorter...

prodrive 2nd decat pipe
silicone intercooler Y-Pipe
prodrive backbox
prodrive ecu (not sure you even get this now, may just be the map)

Takes about 3 hours and a wedge of cash

H4RDY

Yes I think the first spec may have been for STI mine has exhaust, silicon pipe, filter, ecu upgrade not just map I think. £1700 from Subaru only! Mine came with it but what I know now 2 weeks later I would save the money and go somewhere else only if you dont have a warranty though. Fully warranted by Subaru. The price does include fitting though. If you go to the subaru uk website and look at the accesories page the full details are on there you have to look for it though its not well layed out.

CVH

Thanks for that steve, i checked the prodrive website but not a lot of info definetly fancy it i had a prodrive kit on my 02 sti but never new the spec details on it.Any idea of power/torque increase on 06 wrx currently standard?

rigga

iTrader: (4)

The only reason i can see anyone going for a ppp enhancment would be the knolwledge that its warranty approved so some piece of mind attached should anything go wrong..... if the car is no longer covered by warranty i dont think its a very good upgrade at all,far better way of getting more power and at a cheaper price than a generic map from prodrive.... a bespoke ecu remap with decated exhaust is a far better way to go.

steve_wr1

not sure on the 06.the pack usually gives an extra 40bhp.you can find the details on subaru's website in the accessories part.i take it your car is still under warranty? if not i'd go down the route of doing it yourself with aftermarket parts and remap like rigga said.
i've had mine remapped by andy forrest,what a difference from the prodrive map too

MikeWood

CVH

Details are here on our website

prodrive

Just click on the link that applies to your car.


I see that the usual, 'a bespoke map is better than the generic Prodrive map' has reappeared in this thread. I'm sorry, but it is simply not possible to recalibrate an ECU in a day so that it's perfect in all the conditions the car is likely to see. What happens when the weather changes and the temperature drops by 10 degrees, or the air pressure changes, or it clouds over and the humidity goes up, or you can't get V-Power when you need it. If it's not been calibrated to cope with these changes, then it won't be operating optimally. If you did undertake a proper calibration to cope with all conditions, no customer would be prepared to pay for it as it would be far too expensive.

Our PPP cal has been done over several months in as many conditions as we can recreate before release. We'll even take the car to MIRA and use the Climatic Wind Tunnel if we can't get the conditions on the road that we need. We've done the calibration around our fixed mechanical spec to get the best out of the engine in all conceivable conditions and maintain reliabilty commensurate with being able to offer 3 year and 60,000 mile warranties. I'm sure it's possible to get more power in specific circumstances but as there's more variation in atmospheric conditions than the tolerances between individual cars in the same spec, can you be sure that you're getting the best out of it in all condition?

Did I also mention that our package is the only one that has a legal exhaust as well?

Regards

Mike

Tone Loc

iTrader: (1)

Having had the PPP fitted to my 06WRX now for nearly 18months i can say given the chance to spend the money again on a remap/exhaust etc from a tuning company or the PPP i would go with PPP every time. Having had it on the rollers and got 270bhp and 320lb/ft i can't see you getting much more from a remap... the little td04 turbo just can't be pushed much further. Ok i may have spent a few hundred more but i still have my warranty and i know if i get stopped by the police it will pass all emissions tests, all sound tests and is 100% legal (lots of road side tests in my area over the past 12months).

Plus i know it has had Prodrive's Engineers hours/months of work put into the map like Mike said above... not just a 3 hr remap. I may be biased tho as i'm a sucker for anything from Prodrive tho

Tony.

53

iTrader: (41)

Fair play to Mike its important to defend your income streams, and its good to have a bench mark performance upgrade. What I don't understand is the cost of the PPP especially as the MY06 STi version is missing the relatively expensive Sports Cat.

Tone Loc, have you driven the alternative ? It's one thing having peak figures of 270bhp and 320lb/ft but thats only half the story. From my experience of PPP this was disappointing in comparison to my remapped car. Not only in terms of peak figures but avaialble power throughout the rev range and 'in gear' times.

Very often people want more power and think Ahhh PPP = 40 extra BHP, when what they should be doing is forgetting the numbers and getting it mapped for drivability.

Elmer, in agreement with the Subaru main dealer I part ex'd with, my car was put back to standard PPP condition before I traded it in. I doubt the new owner will ever know it has been remapped and this applies to standard cars too.

Elmer Fudpucker

I think its fairly well documented how much I hated my 07 prior to its PPP

It's gone from something I could have cheerfully set fire to and would have enjoyed the subsequent walk to work,to something I get up each morning look fwd to drive...it's my 5th Impreza and beyond a doubt my favourite to date,if you're talking about driveability?this does it for me

53

iTrader: (41)

Yes I read your threads with interest, the MY07's and MY05's are different beasts. PPP has obviously worked for you mate as I dare say it has for lots of other people. Still can't understand the price given that the parts list has got smaller ?

MikeWood

It's not just about the parts price although that obviously has an influence. This sort of thing does cost money to develop and that investment has to be returned somehow.

You can buy a blank CD for pennies, a case costs a few pennies more but you can't buy them in the shops for less than a few pounds.............

Mike

fpan

iTrader: (11)

I have not had the opportunity to drive a car with a PPP or a bespoke ECU map so I can't comment on the driveability of either of them but to calibrate an ECU in all conditions and test it takes time (=money).
The bespoke map may sound good but it has not(?) been tested in all conditions nor do we know the wear of the engine after tens of thousands of miles.
Testing of a product is very critical and I believe the prodrive map has been tested extensively hence why the warranty is retained.
Personally, I prefer to have the piece of mind and play safe even if that means sacrificing a few extra bhp for reliability's sake.

53

iTrader: (41)

I am sure your PPP business model is a healthy one Mike but the product has to be worth the premium, and for some its a stretch too far. I understand the development costs and recovering them but when you see an expensive item like a Sports cat disappear off the parts list you kind of expect to see a reasonable reduction in price. I mean the BB and cat pipe alone is charged to the customer at over £500.

Most of the threads I read about PPP are "I've had it done because of the warranty" which I think is sad. I want to read threads that say I had PPP fitted cause its funkin brilliant and the best bang for buck out there.

I know SNET isn't necessarily representative of most of your customers, but I think if the pricing model was addressed then you would sell more packages based on 'bang for buck' rather than expensive 'warranty friendly pick me up' tuning.

Honest customer feedback, because I am impressed with other products in the Prodrive catalogue

53

iTrader: (41)

Case in point, Prodrive should be synonymous with performance, and not then best you can expect if you want to keep your warranty.

Jolly Green Monster

iTrader: (4)

Same way the PPP does, using the temp/pressure compensation tables - boost air temp compensation, Air Intake Temp Ignition Compensation, etc
As well as the compensation done automatically by the MAF sensor.

Compensation for the lack of the fuel the car is mapped on is within the ECU knock control using the Advance multiplier, if set up correctly.

You use EcuTek like most mappers.. the values within the tables / maps are indeed individual to each mapper.. be it your mapper or any of us.. but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to come up with sensible compensations.

I thought it was given that the PPP was there for a market and bespoke maps there for a separate market.. they occasionally cross and obviously maintaining the manufacturers warrentee you have different considerations, I am however shocked you are slatting bespoke maps, and scare mungering.

Simon

53

iTrader: (41)

Sorry to use your words fpan but they kind of highlight my point.

The Prodrive map will be making a number of assumptions about a car which may or may not be true. Unless its fitted from the factory the cars won’t be identical. This is evident in the number of conflicting results people have had since having PPP done. I would rather have a tried and tested base map with assumptions, which are subsequently ‘tweaked’ to my mods than one that didn’t.

In terms of reliability, PPP is warranty friendly and has ‘cover your **** for cost reliability’. Assuming a sensible level of tuning comparable with the PPP proposition, there is nothing to suggest that PPP cars are any more, or indeed less, reliable.

People who tell you your warranty is spent by modifying are scare mongering.

fpan

iTrader: (11)

I doubt the stock ECU map from factory cars (regardless of make) is tailor made to every car as this would take ages and would cost a fortune to map each and every car out of a production line.
I believe a manufacturer's ECU is mapped based on the set of components a car has and the weather conditions it is going to be driven.
So in 2 cars with identical mechanical components one ECU map would do if they were going to be driven on the same environment. I understand that no 2 engines can be identical but in the same way the map should be able to compensate for those differences.
For me reliability is very important and that's why I prefer something that I believe has been extensively(?) tested.
Saying that, in my 205 Gti I plan on upgrading the ancient Jetronic with a more modern ECU and bespoke map. The expectations/usage of a car determines our choices

53

iTrader: (41)

...and for this reason PPP is perfect for you. But the issue remains PPP is trading off a lack of understanding by subaru customers that want their car to go faster and are taken in by glossy marketing or outright fear of doing anything else

To add we aren't talking about manufacturer's ECU maps though, we are talking about Prodrive's map which for the most part is an aftermarket purchase and not fitted when the car comes out the factory. Assumptions made about parts/cars coming out of a factory is different from MR 51 plate bugeye deciding to buy the PPP. Therefore I would dispute its greater suitability/reliability over alternative modification routes.

jaytc2003

iTrader: (1)

but with an ecutek remap assuming done by a competent mapper you will still retain the factory safety margins etc by use of compensation tables and the like, it just means that it will be a more personal tune to the mods you have done to the car and therefore maximising it to the full, but if you get some bad fuel/adverse weather conditions the ecutek will still change the paramaters as per stock and as per the PPP map (assuming as mentioned done by a competent mapper)

MikeWood

In many cases the performance package is effectively fitted from the factory and in all cases it should be fitted to an otherwise standard car. The only variables are tolerances between individual cars and the subsequent usage they are put to.

We can get more power, it's generally very easy. The reason we don't though is that we feel any more will be at an unacceptable risk to reliabilty and durability. The non-fitment of a downpipe on the STi is a perfect example. We have a serious concern about the durabilty of certain engine components and the lack of authority over boost levels that fitting it would give, so we don't.

Could I ask if you've heard of anyone else in the market that calibrates the car over a significant time period, validates it over an even longer period in as many extreme conditions as possible and then strips the engine at the end of the extended validation mileage to make sure it's still OK?

There's no scaremongering about warranty, if it's not either std or has a PPP fitted then Subaru remain entirely within their rights to refuse a warranty claim.


Simon

I'm not slating bespoke maps, merely recounting that it's just not possible to get a perfect job done in the time frame (and hence budgetry restraints) that customers require on an individual basis. I constantly hear of and read about cars that have to have multiple tweaks to sort out boost control and other issues after an initial session. Or are you telling me that everyone that has a 'bespoke' map gets it done right first time?

In my experience some calibrators are very good and have considerable experience of what they are doing. Some others just have the software and a lot of enthusaism............... I fell into the latter category so it's lucky we have lots of good guys that do know what they are doing

Mike

rigga

iTrader: (4)

This is the whole point of a bespoke map...... the settings are tailored to that particular engine respective of its ability to accept further increases in timing,boost etc.... as pointed out no two engines even at the same miles covered and the same level of driving would be the same due to manufacturing tollerances being different,ppp would be a consideration if the price was more in line with the improvment given over stock,prodrive's hands are tied like all mappers though in so much that no one like to see a car blow up due to running a different map from stock,its bad for business after all.......

Bang for buck it just does not compare.......

53

iTrader: (41)

That is simply not true but best saved for a differerent thread.

I am not knocking PPP out of the park, I repeat what I said before, Prodrive should be synonymous with performance, and not just the best you can expect if you want to keep your warranty.

The price tag that PPP comes in at creates a level of expectation which, for the reason you outlined, it simply can't deliver. The bottom line is if the pricing model were adjusted PPP makes much more sense. The whole Premise behind imprezas, new and used, is that they offer the best bang for buck out of an affordable family car. PPP simply does not.

Jolly Green Monster

iTrader: (4)

no not every car spot on first time, every car is different.

But once you have a strategy for a car setup, you can load it and tweak to the individual car.. occasionally that needs another tweek but that shouldn't be at the customers cost and not normally near standard setup.. therefore is included within the comparison.

streetbeats

very interesting thread.
Im completely at a loss as to whether to go PPP or aftermarket upgrades and bespoke map on my MY07 STi.

Previous imprezas Ive owned were either imports or out of warranty so it was a no brainer.

3 years warranty is a lot to sacrifice, but I would be gutted to spend 1700 quid on PPP and be disappointed with it.

Ive had honest and genuine advice from a few mappers, all of which have been extremely helpful, and all have assured me that 340bhp and 340lb/ft with a nice fat area under the torque curve is safely achievable in my car, and I choose to believe them when it could easily be dismissed as them just selling their product.

But warranties exist to cover unexpected incidents. These unexpected incidents can happen on standard cars, PPP cars or cars upgraded outside of an officially warranted method.

Whilst I try and get my head around it all, Im probably going to focus on suspension and handling upgrades.

Tone Loc

iTrader: (1)

Yes i have.... only newage 2.0 tho, not 2.5. And compared to a couple of remapped 2.0 running approx 290bhp according to some graphs i would still take my 2.5PPP. Maybe that's more to do with it being a 2.5... compared to my old classics this car is a big improvement too. Also Compared to the standard car the PPP adds more than just power and lots of torque, the driveability is vastly improved.... not sure why you'd think the rempapped cars would be better than PPP in this respect?? The all round drivebility of the car is fantastic, as per what EVO (iirc) said of their PPP.

With regards to cost, looking at various tuners stage 1s upgrades they seem to be about £1400-£1500 inc sports cat and claim 280-290bhp, less cost if you go with decat. So maybe £300 less and a few bhp more. Not a huge amount.... i can live with that to keep my warranty and be 100% legal. I'll recoup the £300 in resale value and insurance costs (in my experience PPP is cheaper to insure than custom mods).

Each to their own tho....

Tony.

streetbeats

Perhaps Prodrive will do an offer on PPP for the MY07 and earlier cars at some point.
I dont suppose they'll want stocks of them lying around when the MY08 starts to pick up.

53

iTrader: (41)

Fair enough mate

In one word 'experience'.

If you compare the PPP and Mocom remap on 53WRX

https://www.scoobynet.com/scooby.php...o&photoid=6797

I never fitted PPP to the Spec-D, lesson learned, but I have a conservative 480 rising to 508Nm on tap from 3k to 5k revs which is genuine everyday road mapped. From what I understand you need to be able to replicate Prodrives testing conditions to be able to replicate their results. And even if you did, they aren't as impressive.

In terms of cost with the STi PPP it is loaded with margin ! It ain't good value and your never going to convince anyone but a newbie that it is.

Decat Centre - worth about £100
Fuel Pump - worth about £75
Back Box - Adds little in the way of performance and is an unnecessary add on for the STI Worth £250
Fitting 3 Hours - £200
No Sports Cat!
ECU Map - must be £1075 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????


Warranty is a separate issue and best left for another thread.

Re-sale wise PPP with never repay itself and put back to standard your car is not worth any more/less. As for insurance PPP is no more or less expensive unless its modified beyond the comparison of remap/PPP. But if you go through Keith Michaels its not an issue anyway.

Good thread this, PPP certainly shouldn't be dismissed, but its good to provide some feedback.