my94 remap advice
08 October 2006, 07:23 PM
#5
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94 ecu is not mappable but you can get an addon chip like the scoobyecu or esl. Scoobyclinic also do them and it is mapped to to your car, however it may be worthwhile spending the extra few hundered for the power fc and commander
08 October 2006, 07:32 PM
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Your nearest tuning place is Prosport in Stockport (all the decent people use it 
) so you can ask them for advice (tis always given freely 
)
Easy enough to find, just look under the subaru uk website page and find the service centre
As stated though, your car isnt mappable, you need either a piggyback ecu or a new ecu.
Also it depends on what mods your doing and if your car is a wagon or saloon, if its a saloon then your cheapest option is to get an ecu from a 95/96 car which will give you another 20ps (240ps at the moment, 260 from a 95/96 car).
Try www.gradea-subaru.co.uk up in new mills
Tony
) so you can ask them for advice (tis always given freely )Easy enough to find, just look under the subaru uk website page and find the service centre
As stated though, your car isnt mappable, you need either a piggyback ecu or a new ecu.
Also it depends on what mods your doing and if your car is a wagon or saloon, if its a saloon then your cheapest option is to get an ecu from a 95/96 car which will give you another 20ps (240ps at the moment, 260 from a 95/96 car).
Try www.gradea-subaru.co.uk up in new mills
Tony
08 October 2006, 07:38 PM
#7
Originally Posted by TonyBurns
Your nearest tuning place is Prosport in Stockport (all the decent people use it ) so you can ask them for advice (tis always given freely )
Easy enough to find, just look under the subaru uk website page and find the service centre
As stated though, your car isnt mappable, you need either a piggyback ecu or a new ecu.
Also it depends on what mods your doing and if your car is a wagon or saloon, if its a saloon then your cheapest option is to get an ecu from a 95/96 car which will give you another 20ps (240ps at the moment, 260 from a 95/96 car).
Try www.gradea-subaru.co.uk up in new mills
Tony
) so you can ask them for advice (tis always given freely )Easy enough to find, just look under the subaru uk website page and find the service centre
As stated though, your car isnt mappable, you need either a piggyback ecu or a new ecu.
Also it depends on what mods your doing and if your car is a wagon or saloon, if its a saloon then your cheapest option is to get an ecu from a 95/96 car which will give you another 20ps (240ps at the moment, 260 from a 95/96 car).
Try www.gradea-subaru.co.uk up in new mills
Tony
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08 October 2006, 08:22 PM
#8
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Hyde??? Were's that?? lol
I'm on the Wirral in Birkenhead mate.I've heard great things about Prosport too! Power FC is a good option if we join in on a group buy?? Dosn't it need to be mapped by an expert though?
I'm on the Wirral in Birkenhead mate.I've heard great things about Prosport too! Power FC is a good option if we join in on a group buy?? Dosn't it need to be mapped by an expert though?
09 October 2006, 07:51 AM
#9
You could consider Steve Simpson Motor Sport, Carnforth, North Lancs. Steve Simpson is a well known mapper in Rally circles. He can map GEMS, Motec, Apexi etc. They have developed their own ECU, the Sigma, which I have been running for the last few months and subject to agreement on the commercial details, I am about to start a Group Buy which should be a cracking deal.
Last edited by harvey; 09 October 2006 at 09:42 AM.
09 October 2006, 04:36 PM
#11
Originally Posted by harvey
You could consider Steve Simpson Motor Sport, Carnforth, North Lancs. Steve Simpson is a well known mapper in Rally circles. He can map GEMS, Motec, Apexi etc. They have developed their own ECU, the Sigma, which I have been running for the last few months and subject to agreement on the commercial details, I am about to start a Group Buy which should be a cracking deal.
09 October 2006, 07:47 PM
#12
10 October 2006, 07:32 AM
#15
Alan/Powerwrx : Keep an eye on the Group Buy section. Personal commitments prevent me finalising things for a day or two.
Even for a £1000 ECU, the spec is massive but I am negotiating the best possible deal to compete with lesser ECUs.
WRX and Legacy 93 -98.
I'll be back soon.
Even for a £1000 ECU, the spec is massive but I am negotiating the best possible deal to compete with lesser ECUs.
WRX and Legacy 93 -98.
I'll be back soon.
10 October 2006, 10:20 PM
#17
Originally Posted by harvey
Alan/Powerwrx : Keep an eye on the Group Buy section. Personal commitments prevent me finalising things for a day or two.
Even for a £1000 ECU, the spec is massive but I am negotiating the best possible deal to compete with lesser ECUs.
WRX and Legacy 93 -98.
I'll be back soon.
Even for a £1000 ECU, the spec is massive but I am negotiating the best possible deal to compete with lesser ECUs.
WRX and Legacy 93 -98.
I'll be back soon.
11 October 2006, 09:02 PM
#19
Jay : I had an Apexi Power FC on immediately prior to fitting the SIGMA so I think I am well placed to make a comparison.
The SIGMA produces more power for a start. I am currently doing 420 bhp on a TD05-06 20G.
The Apexi runs a MAF whereas the SIGMA runs MAP so no MAF sensor required.
The MAP sensor of the SIGMA gives a linear output proportional to load resulting in better fuelling and ignition resolution at full boost.
Boost control on the SIGMA is superb whereas with the Apexi Power FC I had to run an AVC-R. The SIGMA controls boost by RPM versus Throttle Position on a 3D Map enabling mapping of the turbo for optimum air flow across the full rev range, which again gives better top end power.
The SIGMA package includes a charge air temperature sensor and the ignition map compensates for temperature. This allows mapping far closer to the limit without the danger of det when temperatures rise. With a top mount this is particularly important. The Apexi Power FC does not have this facility so it cannot be mapped as close to the limit.
Ignition resolution on the SIGMA is .25 degrees and I think it is only 1 degree on the Apexi.
The SIGMA has two separate fuel ignition and boost maps easily selectable so you can run different fuel or different boost level or whatever else you want.
The SIGMA can automatically control water spray on STi or RA models and / or water injection.
Anti-Lag is available as a low cost option.
SIGMA is 24 x 24 3D fuel and ignition maps. I think the Apexi is 16 x 16 or 20 x 20.
Generally the SIGMA has far more going for it as you can see from the above and it certainly develops more power.
The SIGMA produces more power for a start. I am currently doing 420 bhp on a TD05-06 20G.
The Apexi runs a MAF whereas the SIGMA runs MAP so no MAF sensor required.
The MAP sensor of the SIGMA gives a linear output proportional to load resulting in better fuelling and ignition resolution at full boost.
Boost control on the SIGMA is superb whereas with the Apexi Power FC I had to run an AVC-R. The SIGMA controls boost by RPM versus Throttle Position on a 3D Map enabling mapping of the turbo for optimum air flow across the full rev range, which again gives better top end power.
The SIGMA package includes a charge air temperature sensor and the ignition map compensates for temperature. This allows mapping far closer to the limit without the danger of det when temperatures rise. With a top mount this is particularly important. The Apexi Power FC does not have this facility so it cannot be mapped as close to the limit.
Ignition resolution on the SIGMA is .25 degrees and I think it is only 1 degree on the Apexi.
The SIGMA has two separate fuel ignition and boost maps easily selectable so you can run different fuel or different boost level or whatever else you want.
The SIGMA can automatically control water spray on STi or RA models and / or water injection.
Anti-Lag is available as a low cost option.
SIGMA is 24 x 24 3D fuel and ignition maps. I think the Apexi is 16 x 16 or 20 x 20.
Generally the SIGMA has far more going for it as you can see from the above and it certainly develops more power.
11 October 2006, 11:51 PM
#20
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I started typing a full response to your reply Harvey but I can see it being seen as me just trying to defend the Apexi because I am biased, which is not the case but difficult to post my feelings, thoughts, views without it coming accross that way.
I also don't want to fall out with you Harvey and you seem very passionate about the Sigma so I can see me annoying you unintensionally.
They are both very capable ecu's, and I would like to try the Sigma for myself and have spoken to the manufacture about it..
I don't agree with some of what you said though.
Simon
I also don't want to fall out with you Harvey and you seem very passionate about the Sigma so I can see me annoying you unintensionally.
They are both very capable ecu's, and I would like to try the Sigma for myself and have spoken to the manufacture about it..
I don't agree with some of what you said though.
Simon
12 October 2006, 07:19 PM
#21
Jay : I should also have said that the Sigma supports water spray but it could also run water injection instead.
Simon : I am toally surprised. What is there to fall out about? My post(s) have been purely factual as far as I know. Jay asked for a comparison between the two ECUs and that is exactly what I have done. I don't claiim to be an Apexi Expert although I have experience of quite a few and owned my own. The Apexi has now been eclipsed by the SIGMA as far as I can see. If my assessment is anaccurate in any way because of a lack of intimate knowledge of the Apexi, please let me know.
Clearly you recognise it is a very capable piece of kit. Why else would you want to try one out.
Simon : I am toally surprised. What is there to fall out about? My post(s) have been purely factual as far as I know. Jay asked for a comparison between the two ECUs and that is exactly what I have done. I don't claiim to be an Apexi Expert although I have experience of quite a few and owned my own. The Apexi has now been eclipsed by the SIGMA as far as I can see. If my assessment is anaccurate in any way because of a lack of intimate knowledge of the Apexi, please let me know.
I would like to try the Sigma for myself and have spoken to the manufacture about it..
Last edited by harvey; 12 October 2006 at 07:27 PM.
12 October 2006, 11:05 PM
#22
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Harvey,
Yes I was in no way downing the Sigma, far from it.. just some of what you said was downing the Apexi, unfairly imho.
In brief because I must get some sleep tonight
The Apexi is 20x20 btw..
difference between 0.25 degrees from det + fudge factor or 1degree is about 4~5bhp, depending on VE.
The Apexi using the MAF sensor gives a linear output proportional to load/Air flow resulting in just as good fuelling and ignition resolution at full boost, and better at very low or off boost, throttle changes.
The Apexi does have charge / intake temp sensor but only on the cars that came with it fitted already.. I keep meaning to find the input pin on the Apexi for the others and wire one up, it is a valid point.
Boost control can be done on the early car with the addition of a map sensor, on 97 onwards sometimes needing the addition of a 3port boost solenoid (which you would most likely need on the Sigma also)
I think saying it gave more power is factual but give any mapper a car mapped put it on a dyno and get figure and then fit another ecu and map it with the other power figure as a target you are able to beat it by going nearer the edge.. also I presume a different intake was used with no MAF sensor?
Which you can do on the Apexi cheaply with AndrewC's MAFSIM.
I don't agree or I have misunderstood the following
Please expand on how this give better top end power?
If you mean you can be more sensible with the boost.. like run more until peak power and then tail off? you can do all that on a lot of setups if the wastegate is sufficent on standard boost control.. or like said use the AVC-R it is rare you want anything other than either full boost and held, or full boost and tailed off anyway.
Simon
Yes I was in no way downing the Sigma, far from it.. just some of what you said was downing the Apexi, unfairly imho.
In brief because I must get some sleep tonight
The Apexi is 20x20 btw..
difference between 0.25 degrees from det + fudge factor or 1degree is about 4~5bhp, depending on VE.
The Apexi using the MAF sensor gives a linear output proportional to load/Air flow resulting in just as good fuelling and ignition resolution at full boost, and better at very low or off boost, throttle changes.
The Apexi does have charge / intake temp sensor but only on the cars that came with it fitted already.. I keep meaning to find the input pin on the Apexi for the others and wire one up, it is a valid point.
Boost control can be done on the early car with the addition of a map sensor, on 97 onwards sometimes needing the addition of a 3port boost solenoid (which you would most likely need on the Sigma also)
I think saying it gave more power is factual but give any mapper a car mapped put it on a dyno and get figure and then fit another ecu and map it with the other power figure as a target you are able to beat it by going nearer the edge.. also I presume a different intake was used with no MAF sensor?
Which you can do on the Apexi cheaply with AndrewC's MAFSIM.
I don't agree or I have misunderstood the following
The SIGMA controls boost by RPM versus Throttle Position on a 3D Map enabling mapping of the turbo for optimum air flow across the full rev range, which again gives better top end power.
If you mean you can be more sensible with the boost.. like run more until peak power and then tail off? you can do all that on a lot of setups if the wastegate is sufficent on standard boost control.. or like said use the AVC-R it is rare you want anything other than either full boost and held, or full boost and tailed off anyway.
Simon
Last edited by Jolly Green Monster; 14 October 2006 at 03:39 AM.
13 October 2006, 11:37 AM
#23
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Knock Control? I presume the Sigma doesn't have knock control..
So if you get a bad batch of fuel without knowing you won't know to switch over to the lower octane map until it is too late?
Where as the Apexi PowerFc will flash the engine check light to indicate a high knock reading and then the owner can knock the boost down, take it easy etc...
Simon
So if you get a bad batch of fuel without knowing you won't know to switch over to the lower octane map until it is too late?
Where as the Apexi PowerFc will flash the engine check light to indicate a high knock reading and then the owner can knock the boost down, take it easy etc...
Simon
13 October 2006, 12:16 PM
#24
I am away from home and will deal with this in detail tonight if I am in the frame of mind to do so, otherwise Saturday morning.
I am not "downing" the Apexi unfairly, simply reporting facts, as far as I know. Please explain why anything I have said is unfair or inaccurate.
just some of what you said was downing the Apexi, unfairly imho.
13 October 2006, 08:17 PM
#25
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On an ECU with no knock control it is just suicidal to map within 0.25 degrees of det 
I can see no reason that this (or any) ECU would produce more power on a road car that has to cope with the variation in fuel octane stability we have in the UK.
Running pure race fuel there may be a few bhp gain if tuned right to the ragged edge but then again race fuel is not so timing sensitive so possibly not that much of a gain.
As a matter of interest, the std subaru ecu controls to less than 0.25 of a degree but relies on knock control strategy to do this.
FWIW my old RA made 440 bhp on the same turbo on an Apexi but as we know, you just can't compare results as there are too many variables and a multitude of ways to influence the results.
Andy
I can see no reason that this (or any) ECU would produce more power on a road car that has to cope with the variation in fuel octane stability we have in the UK.
Running pure race fuel there may be a few bhp gain if tuned right to the ragged edge but then again race fuel is not so timing sensitive so possibly not that much of a gain.
As a matter of interest, the std subaru ecu controls to less than 0.25 of a degree but relies on knock control strategy to do this.
FWIW my old RA made 440 bhp on the same turbo on an Apexi but as we know, you just can't compare results as there are too many variables and a multitude of ways to influence the results.
Andy
Last edited by Andy.F; 13 October 2006 at 08:24 PM.
13 October 2006, 10:10 PM
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Harvey, does the Sigma not have knock control or knock warning then?
It does sound like a decent bit of kit, but if you are mapped so close to det the chances of getting another batch of fuel with same burn characteristics etc are pretty slim and with no knowing of knock levels (Assuming average user doesnt have a laptop plugged in) is pretty dangerous wouldnt you say for normal road use?
It does sound like a decent bit of kit, but if you are mapped so close to det the chances of getting another batch of fuel with same burn characteristics etc are pretty slim and with no knowing of knock levels (Assuming average user doesnt have a laptop plugged in) is pretty dangerous wouldnt you say for normal road use?
13 October 2006, 11:35 PM
#27
I'll answer this in full in the morning. Today has been long and arduous, Ive done 300mls and the travelling was only a small part of the day.
The Sigma has a DET alert, much the same as the Apexi.
In addition I personally run a Knock Link but only because it was on the car BEFORE the Sigma was fitted.
Nowhere have I said the car was mapped to .25 degrees of DET, but what I have said is the Sigma has resolution of .25 degrees.
Full detailed response in the morning.
The Sigma has a DET alert, much the same as the Apexi.
In addition I personally run a Knock Link but only because it was on the car BEFORE the Sigma was fitted.
Nowhere have I said the car was mapped to .25 degrees of DET, but what I have said is the Sigma has resolution of .25 degrees.
Full detailed response in the morning.
14 October 2006, 10:07 AM
#28
Andy : The SIGMA has DET warning the same as the Apexi.
I remember the day when you got 440 bhp when we went to Fife. This was a fantastic result from a TD05-06 and Apexi but as we all know you can extract more power on your cars than any other mere mortals. You were running Methanol but that does not detract from the result.
BTW I have had 420.7 BHP, below peak power revs (because of a misfire) running on V-Power plus 2mls per litre NF. I will let you know the peak power figure after the next rolling road session when I should be able to rev well beyond 6000 rpm I used last time. If I get 430 bhp out of the TD05-06 on the fuel I am using I would be over the moon.
Simon : A little experiment. Put a timing light on any 93-96 car fitted with an Apexi Power FC and you will see the timing swings about through 2-4 degrees. This is a major reason why an Apexi will never give the ultimate power of say a Link or the SIGMA. I have not had the opportunity to do the same test on a 97-98 car.
I am not slagging the Apexi. I was asked to give comparisons and I did this honestly. You have now chosen to take detailed issue so it is only right I respond in a detailed manner so there can be no doubt as to the capability of the SIGMA.
The SIGMA is 24 x 24 and the brake points can be moved. This means you can have fantastic resolution where you want it. Eg. Where the turbo just comes on spool or at the point of maximum power if you want to dyno queen.
I am glad we agree on this but I did not say we mapped the car to within .25 degrees of DET but the resolultion allows the car to be mapped that much more accurately. Coupled with the fact that the Apexi timing floats about as detailed above, here is where there is power to be had.
Wrong. The output of a MAF sensor (Air Flow) is not linear. The Apexi may show the maps as linear graphs but the calibration curve of the MAF is exponential. An increase in boost from say 0 to .3 bar will give a greater voltage change than an increase from say 1 bar to 1.3 bar. You can measure this for yourself and confirm I am right.
Therefore, the fuel and ignition map resolution with a MAF cannot be as great as with an MAP sensor which has a linear relationship between boost and voltage.
Wrong. STi models have an Air Temperature sensor to measure air temp at the filter. This is not what we are talking about. With the SIGMA ECU an Air Temperature Sensor is fitted in the intercooler (TMIC) or in the hard pipe to the throttle body (FMIC). This sensor is included in the price of the ECU.
You will also find that on cars with the Apexi and the inlet temperature sensor that the correction table has a very limited range and cannot be used in the way that the SIGMA operates.
The SIGMA does not need the addition of anything to control boost satisfactorily. There is therefore a saving on the cost of an AVC-R or similar.
I think the Apexi only has one duty cycle setting for any given boost regardless of RPM and that is why you let boost tail away by virtue of the reducing efficiency of the turbo as revs increase. With the SIGMA the duty cycle can be reduced as revs increase so we are operating in a more efficient zone on the turbo compressor map. This improves air flow (more power) and the increased efficiency reduces charge temperatures (more power).
Obviously if a car is mapped on the road and then put on the rollers it should be possible to find a few BHP. That has been discounted. The reason for some of the power difference has been explained above. For the purposes of experimentation the MAF sensor was simply disconnected but the MAF tube remained in position while we played. Subsequently it was deleted from the inlet tract when time was available to make an alternative.
Why mess about with a MAFSIM and the expense when a purpose designed ECU that is extremely capable, can support proper boost control, water spray and Anti-Lag if you want it, is available at a very competitive price.
I think this has answered all your points but if you want to come back on anything I will certainly deal with any points you want to raise and I am simply trying to stay with the facts. This is a cracking ECU. Why not get yourself on the group buy
I remember the day when you got 440 bhp when we went to Fife. This was a fantastic result from a TD05-06 and Apexi but as we all know you can extract more power on your cars than any other mere mortals. You were running Methanol but that does not detract from the result.
BTW I have had 420.7 BHP, below peak power revs (because of a misfire) running on V-Power plus 2mls per litre NF. I will let you know the peak power figure after the next rolling road session when I should be able to rev well beyond 6000 rpm I used last time. If I get 430 bhp out of the TD05-06 on the fuel I am using I would be over the moon.
Simon : A little experiment. Put a timing light on any 93-96 car fitted with an Apexi Power FC and you will see the timing swings about through 2-4 degrees. This is a major reason why an Apexi will never give the ultimate power of say a Link or the SIGMA. I have not had the opportunity to do the same test on a 97-98 car.
I am not slagging the Apexi. I was asked to give comparisons and I did this honestly. You have now chosen to take detailed issue so it is only right I respond in a detailed manner so there can be no doubt as to the capability of the SIGMA.
The Apexi is 20x20 btw..
difference between 0.25 degrees from det + fudge factor or 1degree is about 4~5bhp, depending on VE.
The Apexi using the MAF sensor gives a linear output proportional to load/Air flow resulting in just as good fuelling and ignition resolution at full boost, and better at very low or off boost, throttle changes.
Therefore, the fuel and ignition map resolution with a MAF cannot be as great as with an MAP sensor which has a linear relationship between boost and voltage.
The Apexi does have charge / intake temp sensor but only on the cars that came with it fitted already.. I keep meaning to find the input pin on the Apexi for the others and wire one up, it is a valid point.
You will also find that on cars with the Apexi and the inlet temperature sensor that the correction table has a very limited range and cannot be used in the way that the SIGMA operates.
Boost control can be done on the early car with the addition of a map sensor, on 97 onwards sometimes needing the addition of a 3port boost solenoid (which you would most likely need on the Sigma also)
I think the Apexi only has one duty cycle setting for any given boost regardless of RPM and that is why you let boost tail away by virtue of the reducing efficiency of the turbo as revs increase. With the SIGMA the duty cycle can be reduced as revs increase so we are operating in a more efficient zone on the turbo compressor map. This improves air flow (more power) and the increased efficiency reduces charge temperatures (more power).
I think saying it gave more power is factual but give any mapper a car mapped put it on a dyno and get figure and then fit another ecu and map it with the other power figure as a target you are able to beat it by going nearer the edge.. also I presume a different intake was used with no MAF sensor?
Which you can do on the Apexi cheaply with AndrewC's MAFSIM
I think this has answered all your points but if you want to come back on anything I will certainly deal with any points you want to raise and I am simply trying to stay with the facts. This is a cracking ECU. Why not get yourself on the group buy
Last edited by harvey; 14 October 2006 at 10:18 AM.
14 October 2006, 10:07 AM
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This is great
After reading this though i'm still inclined to go for a fully sorted Apexi from Andy..at least it's a tried and tested product on thousends of cars over the years with no complaints..at the end of the day my car's only worth 3K so 1K for a mapped ECU seems a little bit to over the top.
After reading this though i'm still inclined to go for a fully sorted Apexi from Andy..at least it's a tried and tested product on thousends of cars over the years with no complaints..at the end of the day my car's only worth 3K so 1K for a mapped ECU seems a little bit to over the top.