Whats Best Rolling road/Live Mapping
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Whats Best Rolling road/Live Mapping
Ok just thought i would put the question out to see what you all think
Looking to get a tek3 done some ringing about and asked the same question.
So what is best rolling road or on the road (live) mapping?
Lee
Looking to get a tek3 done some ringing about and asked the same question.
So what is best rolling road or on the road (live) mapping?
Lee
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I have been mapping recently on rollers but tweak on road after, but what comes up time and again is
"Do you drive the car on the road?" or do you
"Drive the car on the rollers?"
The more powerful the car, the more difficulty arises when mapping on the road, so i would suggest in your case you have it mapped on the road for the moment.
"Do you drive the car on the road?" or do you
"Drive the car on the rollers?"
The more powerful the car, the more difficulty arises when mapping on the road, so i would suggest in your case you have it mapped on the road for the moment.
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Originally Posted by andy97
Having had my car mapped very recently on the road, it is great fun, albeit a bit sapping on the body and soul. 4th and 5th gear wot runs, keep you very alert.
Andy
Andy
Many thanks,
Ns04
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Got to say is is virtually impossible to gauge a difference of 5-10 BHP on the road, will you be taking your car for dyno days after? If you bothered about the figures then dyno rules OK
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Originally Posted by New_scooby_04
Can I ask you who did your mapping and what the process basically entailed?
Many thanks,
Ns04
Many thanks,
Ns04
Process: The car will have a base map loaded and he will test everything is ok (my welly was getting in the way, but thats another story ). Then you drive normally while he adjust lots of settings. He will then ask you to go full throttle in 4th gear (2.5k to 7k) revs until he indicates to slow down (or traffic gets in the way), this is repeated several times in 4th 5th and 3rd gears. Then you will do some half throttle accellerations in 3rd/4th gear, again repeated until he's happy, he will be upping the boost levels as the session progresses After which comes some 3rd to 5th full bore runs until the road runs out or he indicates to slow. Some ballistic speeds can be reached.
Last edited by andy97; 25 March 2006 at 10:29 AM.
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Originally Posted by andy97
After which comes some 3rd to 5th full bore runs until the road runs out or he indicates to slow. Some ballistic speeds can be reached.
Andy
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One contributing factor to me getting out of mapping on the road commercially was the safety/legal/liability issues.
More cars were coming with bigger turbos and the owners clearly wanted a car that would safely do silly speeds. How do you map them to this unless you can load them up to this speed? As soon as you got out of 2nd gear you'd be breaking the law just about.
The complications if a customer binned it on a mapper's instructions didn't bear thinking about.
OTOH, if you map on the rollers you need to be confident that your rollers can replicate what that car will then do on the road when the guy goes and races a motorbike...
I used to do some silly things that I'm glad I've left behind. One day something terrible might happen, or perhaps people will end up straight to jail, as the speeds involved make some of the "record speed 151mph" etc headlines seem trivial.
A facility like Bruntingthorpe or another airfield where you can get some power down safely in top gear would be quite a good way of doing it I'm sure as some do.
More cars were coming with bigger turbos and the owners clearly wanted a car that would safely do silly speeds. How do you map them to this unless you can load them up to this speed? As soon as you got out of 2nd gear you'd be breaking the law just about.
The complications if a customer binned it on a mapper's instructions didn't bear thinking about.
OTOH, if you map on the rollers you need to be confident that your rollers can replicate what that car will then do on the road when the guy goes and races a motorbike...
I used to do some silly things that I'm glad I've left behind. One day something terrible might happen, or perhaps people will end up straight to jail, as the speeds involved make some of the "record speed 151mph" etc headlines seem trivial.
A facility like Bruntingthorpe or another airfield where you can get some power down safely in top gear would be quite a good way of doing it I'm sure as some do.
Last edited by john banks; 24 March 2006 at 10:08 PM.
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Edit. Thought probably best not to comment about a previous case of a GT2 and a biker in any specifics except to say that there but by the grace of god or whoever, go a lot of Scooby drivers.
Last edited by john banks; 24 March 2006 at 10:23 PM.
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Originally Posted by Andy.F
Dangerous and just not necessary.
Andy
Andy
Don't be so incredlby stupid to assume we took the car to 7k or anywhere near it in 5th gear.
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I'm not criticising anyone here, just asking difficult questions that I could never answer satisfactorily...
How do you guys map for sustained peak power without using a dyno then or do you just extrapolate conservatively? Brakes tend to overheat trying to dissipate 400 BHP or so of excess power for long enough to stress the engine.
If we had ECUs we could trust to shut it all down in response to high EGTs or high RPM knock then all might be a bit easier, but a lot of the ECUs we map don't have all this?
How do you guys map for sustained peak power without using a dyno then or do you just extrapolate conservatively? Brakes tend to overheat trying to dissipate 400 BHP or so of excess power for long enough to stress the engine.
If we had ECUs we could trust to shut it all down in response to high EGTs or high RPM knock then all might be a bit easier, but a lot of the ECUs we map don't have all this?
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Originally Posted by john banks
How do you guys map for sustained peak power without using a dyno then or do you just extrapolate conservatively?
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Originally Posted by andy97
Paul @ Zenperformance mapped the car.
He will then ask you to go full throttle in 4th gear (2.5k to 7k) revs until he indicates to slow down (or traffic gets in the way), this is repeated several times in 4th 5th and 3rd gears. After which comes some 3rd to 5th full bore runs until the road runs out or he indicates to slow. Some ballistic speeds can be reached.
He will then ask you to go full throttle in 4th gear (2.5k to 7k) revs until he indicates to slow down (or traffic gets in the way), this is repeated several times in 4th 5th and 3rd gears. After which comes some 3rd to 5th full bore runs until the road runs out or he indicates to slow. Some ballistic speeds can be reached.
I stand by what I said. Dangerous and just not necessary
Andy
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Originally Posted by Zen Performance
Crystal ball, luck rabits foot, divining rods and a magic 8 ball.
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Originally Posted by Andy.F
Sorry Paul, didn't think I needed to be there when the driver relayed the above info FIRST HAND !
I stand by what I said. Dangerous and just not necessary
Andy
I stand by what I said. Dangerous and just not necessary
Andy
Repeated WOT runs to 7k not done in any gear other than 3rd gear. Repeated WOT runs in 5th gear from 2.5k to 3.5k sometimes 4.5k
Occasional WOT runs in 3rd followed by a change into 4th follows by WOT for a second or 2. A veriety of part throttle runs, not to mention many adjustments while the driver doesn't even notice because he is doing what I want through his normal driving at the time.
What are ballistic speeds to some, are bettered by others within less than 10 seconds of a standing start.
Ultimately it is the drivers responsibility to regulate his speed. I make it clear that if the customer is uncomfortable with anything he can back off, and that road safety is ultimately down to them. I still keep half an eye on the road, as sometimes the customers own judgement doesn't quite agree with mine.
I also take into account the spec of the car from the outset, asking someone to hold prolonged WOT in a 12 year car with 130,000 miles and a standard engine is a recipe for disaster.
I find it paticularly ironic that you have the bare faced cheek to lecture me about speed, when you gave me such a hard time over posting about the dangers that come with a high power car. You suggested that
your local roads allow VERY high speeds to be acheived and that you were not adversed to doing so. And to top it off you just about acuse me of lying about the customers mapping in question, which is none of your business in the first place.
And while I'm at it, BECOME AN AUTHORISED ADVERTISER.
Paul
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There are roads up here that can be physically crossed at very high speed, but even if you feel it is safe, the Police/Courts/Law will not agree and the policitcal attitude to speeding these days makes it widely accepted as antisocial. That is a risk that people take, a big fine is one thing, loss of licence quite another, jail sentence or killing someone worse still.
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Originally Posted by Zen Performance
I also take into account the spec of the car from the outset, asking someone to hold prolonged WOT in a 12 year car with 130,000 miles and a standard engine is a recipe for disaster.
Paul
Paul
Andy
ps thanks for the advertising tip but I'm currently too busy as it is.
Anyway I currently appear to be a double SN++ member so that surely allows anything
Last edited by Andy.F; 24 March 2006 at 11:20 PM.
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You just don't need to do high speeds during mapping. My Sti5 type R had never run any faster than a 1/4 mile terminal before doing 199/204/207/210 mph.
Andy
Andy
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now your getting bitchy lol...... better than eastenders on here lol.. as far as i see it everyone has there own way of doing things and if everyone did the same there wouldn't be any competition u both build amazingly quick cars so u both must no your stuff just wish scotland was nearer
chris
chris
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It involves some educated guesswork though since you can't get the same load/duration/temperature build up unless you actually test it doing it? You driving a car you built and mapped at high speed when it hasn't been tested there before and a customer doing it (you know as well as I that some of the baseball hat wearers are good with the right foot and not much else LOL) are surely two different things? And even then, with the sort of sensory bombardment in your car even you won't be watching your gauges at 210 mph as much as you would perhaps like to?
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Originally Posted by Andy.F
You just don't need to do high speeds during mapping. My Sti5 type R had never run any faster than a 1/4 mile terminal before doing 199/204/207/210 mph.
Andy
Andy
Without wishing to state the fecking obvious, your car finishes the 1/4 mile at a speed greater that most people have ever drive, and faster than I think I have ever done as a passenger while mapping a car.
I also seem to remember riding in the passenger seat of your car at Bruntingthorpe in your car that you had mapped on Optimax, without excessive speed. Except on this occasion, you filled it with race fuel, and me looking at the knock on the powerFC at 198mph because you were paranoid about blowing it up (and rightly so). I also remember that you adjusted the ignition timing for the next 199mph run, again with me holding the FC commander and keeping an eye on the knock.
If your car was so effectively mapped as it was, why did you feel the need to change the fuel, have me looking at the knock, and adjust the ignition timing? Today's confidence in your existing 1/4 map was rather lacking on that day at bruntingthorp.
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I recall you suggested jumping in to 'keep an eye on things' hope you learned something
You may also recall that my laptop would not communicate on the day and as a result I couldn't load the appropriate map.
There is a massive difference to the way I tune my own car for 200+mph (it obviously needs to be close to the edge or else everyone would be doing it) and how I tune customer cars for continuous unmonitored thrashing.
Andy
You may also recall that my laptop would not communicate on the day and as a result I couldn't load the appropriate map.
There is a massive difference to the way I tune my own car for 200+mph (it obviously needs to be close to the edge or else everyone would be doing it) and how I tune customer cars for continuous unmonitored thrashing.
Andy
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Originally Posted by Andy.F
I recall you suggested jumping in to 'keep an eye on things' hope you learned something
You may also recall that my laptop would not communicate on the day and as a result I couldn't load the appropriate map.
There is a massive difference to the way I tune my own car for 200+mph (it obviously needs to be close to the edge or else everyone would be doing it) and how I tune customer cars for continuous unmonitored thrashing.
Andy
You may also recall that my laptop would not communicate on the day and as a result I couldn't load the appropriate map.
There is a massive difference to the way I tune my own car for 200+mph (it obviously needs to be close to the edge or else everyone would be doing it) and how I tune customer cars for continuous unmonitored thrashing.
Andy
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No, not a guess at all. It is based on many years of tuning experience on turbocharged cars running under circuit race/hill climb/drag race conditions.
Something you cannot yet comprehend and possibly the main reason you have had so many catastrophic engine failures.
Andy
Something you cannot yet comprehend and possibly the main reason you have had so many catastrophic engine failures.
Andy