Do PPG gearsets replace all guts of box
08 February 2006, 05:17 AM
#1
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Do PPG gearsets replace all guts of box
Am going to go either 6 speed route or strenthern 5 speed, just wondering if went the PPG route, what gets changed.
Looks like i have a few probs with my 5 speed now and am looking at all options.
How noisy are they, can you live with them on a daily driver?
Cookie
Looks like i have a few probs with my 5 speed now and am looking at all options.
How noisy are they, can you live with them on a daily driver?
Cookie
08 February 2006, 07:23 AM
#2
You need to talk to Paul at ZEN Performance.
Only from what I've read:
The gearset is added to the selectors/bearings and some other parts such as the stock 5th speed/reverse gears.
The weak parts are replaced, and those gears/shafts are huge compared to stock
You can have the gears straight cut (noisey) with synchro change as in the stock box, or semi-helical which will kill the noise to a tolerable level.
Same gears can be had with Dog change mechamism where you can change gear on the move without the clutch, rally style.
This is a blunt change and would be hard to drive to work etc (imho) but...
I have driven an RA with semi helical dog change and it is fantastic on the track, but i think the hard change would become tiresome in the end. Noise level was fine.
The ZEN parts do seem to be reliable, the 6 speeder is 30Kg heavier but about half the cost too, and hard work to fit.
Zen offer a full facility of fitting etc so a one-stop-shop.
Please, this is all on a short drive on a track and what I've read, but like many, a decision will need to be made soon (in my case!).
Call Paul.
Graham.
Only from what I've read:
The gearset is added to the selectors/bearings and some other parts such as the stock 5th speed/reverse gears.
The weak parts are replaced, and those gears/shafts are huge compared to stock
You can have the gears straight cut (noisey) with synchro change as in the stock box, or semi-helical which will kill the noise to a tolerable level.
Same gears can be had with Dog change mechamism where you can change gear on the move without the clutch, rally style.
This is a blunt change and would be hard to drive to work etc (imho) but...
I have driven an RA with semi helical dog change and it is fantastic on the track, but i think the hard change would become tiresome in the end. Noise level was fine.
The ZEN parts do seem to be reliable, the 6 speeder is 30Kg heavier but about half the cost too, and hard work to fit.
Zen offer a full facility of fitting etc so a one-stop-shop.
Please, this is all on a short drive on a track and what I've read, but like many, a decision will need to be made soon (in my case!).
Call Paul.
Graham.
08 February 2006, 07:51 AM
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Im very interested in this as well. Dont want the extra wieght of the 6 speed and quite a few people dont particularly like the ratios. PPG seems the way to go at the moment.
08 February 2006, 09:14 AM
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The synchro PPG kit replaces the gears for gears 1-4. You will retain all the factory synchros, hubs etc with the exception of 3rd gear which uses a new 4th gear synchro rather than the factory 3rd.
The straigth cut kits are really quite noisey, the helical kits are almost as quiet as stock, and pretty much as strong although I don't know of any broken teeth on either! The gearchange is as per the factory change.
Paul
The straigth cut kits are really quite noisey, the helical kits are almost as quiet as stock, and pretty much as strong although I don't know of any broken teeth on either! The gearchange is as per the factory change.
Paul
08 February 2006, 09:19 AM
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Thanks Paul,
All in price for the helical set?
a) on its own, you just supply parts.
b) i bring you the box, you fit the parts, i pick the box up.
I presume the helical set is rated at over 400 lb/ft? (or can easily cope with this)
All in price for the helical set?
a) on its own, you just supply parts.
b) i bring you the box, you fit the parts, i pick the box up.
I presume the helical set is rated at over 400 lb/ft? (or can easily cope with this)
08 February 2006, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Zen Performance
The synchro PPG kit replaces the gears for gears 1-4. You will retain all the factory synchros, hubs etc with the exception of 3rd gear which uses a new 4th gear synchro rather than the factory 3rd.
The straigth cut kits are really quite noisey, the helical kits are almost as quiet as stock, and pretty much as strong although I don't know of any broken teeth on either! The gearchange is as per the factory change.
Paul
The straigth cut kits are really quite noisey, the helical kits are almost as quiet as stock, and pretty much as strong although I don't know of any broken teeth on either! The gearchange is as per the factory change.
Paul
what are both setups rated to, are the helicals much weaker than straight cut?
I want to do this only once
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08 February 2006, 11:09 PM
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The gearsets are not rated to anything, you can only go by the cars that have run them. PPG tell me the helical is "very slightly" weaker than the straight cut, and seeing as the straight cut synchro have been holding 600hp or there abouts, I think most people will be fine.
1-4 syncho kits are £1895+vat but there are a couple of options depending on the year of the box. 99 onwards boxes require a new synchro ring, as the PPG 3rd gear uses a single cone 4th gear synchro. 3-4 sets have been available for the early boxes, but the preferred route now is to upgrade the box to the 99-> synchro hub and use the later kit. Billet steel selector forks are available for 1-2, 3-4 and 5/R, and recommended in applications where the box will be regularly be subjected to fast (too fast!) gearchanges. The standard forks seem relatively strong, but they act on two small plastic pads, which wear and go on to cause synchro problems in extreme cases. For fast road use, with occasional drag racing (which covers a lot of people here) the standard forks should be okay.
Box build are upwards of £250+vat. We have stopped doing fixed cost builds (as of last week) as we were seeing too many boxes that required a variety of remedial work, which can eat up time.
Paul
1-4 syncho kits are £1895+vat but there are a couple of options depending on the year of the box. 99 onwards boxes require a new synchro ring, as the PPG 3rd gear uses a single cone 4th gear synchro. 3-4 sets have been available for the early boxes, but the preferred route now is to upgrade the box to the 99-> synchro hub and use the later kit. Billet steel selector forks are available for 1-2, 3-4 and 5/R, and recommended in applications where the box will be regularly be subjected to fast (too fast!) gearchanges. The standard forks seem relatively strong, but they act on two small plastic pads, which wear and go on to cause synchro problems in extreme cases. For fast road use, with occasional drag racing (which covers a lot of people here) the standard forks should be okay.
Box build are upwards of £250+vat. We have stopped doing fixed cost builds (as of last week) as we were seeing too many boxes that required a variety of remedial work, which can eat up time.
Paul
Last edited by ZEN Performance; 08 February 2006 at 11:17 PM.
08 February 2006, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Zen Performance
The gearsets are not rated to anything, you can only go by the cars that have run them. PPG tell me the helical is "very slightly" weaker than the straight cut, and seeing as the straight cut synchro have been holding 600hp or there abouts, I think most people will be fine.
1-4 syncho kits are £1895+vat but there are a couple of options depending on the year of the box. 99 onwards boxes require a new synchro ring, as the PPG 3rd gear uses a single cone 4th gear synchro. 3-4 sets have been available for the early boxes, but the preferred route now is to upgrade the box to the 99-> synchro hub and use the later kit. Billet steel selector forks are available for 1-2, 3-4 and 5/R, and recommended in applications where the box will be regularly be subjected to fast (too fast!) gearchanges. The standard forks seem relatively strong, but they act on two small plastic pads, which wear and go on to cause synchro problems in extreme cases. For fast road use, with occasional drag racing (which covers a lot of people here) the standard forks should be okay.
Box build are upwards of £250+vat. We have stopped doing fixed cost builds (as of last week) as we were seeing too many boxes that required a variety of remedial work, which can eat up time.
Paul
1-4 syncho kits are £1895+vat but there are a couple of options depending on the year of the box. 99 onwards boxes require a new synchro ring, as the PPG 3rd gear uses a single cone 4th gear synchro. 3-4 sets have been available for the early boxes, but the preferred route now is to upgrade the box to the 99-> synchro hub and use the later kit. Billet steel selector forks are available for 1-2, 3-4 and 5/R, and recommended in applications where the box will be regularly be subjected to fast (too fast!) gearchanges. The standard forks seem relatively strong, but they act on two small plastic pads, which wear and go on to cause synchro problems in extreme cases. For fast road use, with occasional drag racing (which covers a lot of people here) the standard forks should be okay.
Box build are upwards of £250+vat. We have stopped doing fixed cost builds (as of last week) as we were seeing too many boxes that required a variety of remedial work, which can eat up time.
Paul
so £2145+ VAT min
ouch
09 February 2006, 07:23 AM
#10
But they don't break, they weight the same to a Kg or 2 and they hold their value.
You don't have to change the rear diff (as you do on a 6 speeder unless a UK car).
You only buy Quality once.
Graham.
You don't have to change the rear diff (as you do on a 6 speeder unless a UK car).
You only buy Quality once.
Graham.
09 February 2006, 12:40 PM
#14
No such thing as bullet proof.
The gearbox will still have vulnerable bits like syncros which may mean a rebuild now and then.
I wouldn't expect much change out of £3k.
6-speeds are strong units and are cheaper, but the ratios might not be 'ideal'.
The gearbox will still have vulnerable bits like syncros which may mean a rebuild now and then.
I wouldn't expect much change out of £3k.
6-speeds are strong units and are cheaper, but the ratios might not be 'ideal'.
09 February 2006, 01:05 PM
#15
The Modena gear set at TEG Sport I think is about £4500.
As Bob says, one slip, some harsh use (even at this level) will take it's toll eventually, but nothing lasts for ever. But nothing.
In drag racing this level is everything, just look at Bob's times! But maybe you can tolerate the 6 speeder for the road with a big engine, or even a decent length hill climb, but in the end you will always want a faster transmission.
A sequential shifter on a 5 speed dog/straight cut box? Maybe the ultimate.
Graham.
As Bob says, one slip, some harsh use (even at this level) will take it's toll eventually, but nothing lasts for ever. But nothing.
In drag racing this level is everything, just look at Bob's times! But maybe you can tolerate the 6 speeder for the road with a big engine, or even a decent length hill climb, but in the end you will always want a faster transmission.
A sequential shifter on a 5 speed dog/straight cut box? Maybe the ultimate.
Graham.
09 February 2006, 02:38 PM
#16
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If you want to see what the PPG stuff looks like go
here
http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/showthread.php?t=477846
here
http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/showthread.php?t=477846
09 February 2006, 03:33 PM
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Any synchro box will require a new baulk ring from time to time. But a quick baulk ring swap is a bit different to a complete rebuild.
Paul
Paul
10 February 2006, 04:05 PM
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The standard forks seem relatively strong, but they act on two small plastic pads, which wear and go on to cause synchro problems in extreme cases.
12 February 2006, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by cookstar
Well it happened, an almightyu BANG and no gear selectiob available now
Anyone got a WRX box going
Anyone got a WRX box going
keeps us all informed on your next moves, I feel i could be in the same boat very soon
Rich
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