Do Twin Turbo's....
11 August 2005, 08:35 PM
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Do Twin Turbo's....
Hi,
Sorry if sounds like a stupid question but do twin turbo charged cars (if they have installed) have two dump valves?, and two wastegates? etc... The same with quad turbos etc... Can anyone enlighten me.
Cheers
Stiver3
Sorry if sounds like a stupid question but do twin turbo charged cars (if they have installed) have two dump valves?, and two wastegates? etc... The same with quad turbos etc... Can anyone enlighten me.
Cheers
Stiver3
11 August 2005, 10:49 PM
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yes. if they are two turbos for two banks of cylinders it's essentially two turbocharged engines that share one crank.
i tried to think about sequential turbos for you, but i couldn't. my brain isn't working - next question?
i tried to think about sequential turbos for you, but i couldn't. my brain isn't working - next question?
11 August 2005, 11:41 PM
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Two types of twin turbo.
Twin equal size small turbos on perhaps a V8. Each turbo serves half the V8 so each is the same as the turbo on a 4 cylinder engine, so has wastegate, dump valve etc etc. Just like two turbo'd 4 cyl engines under one bonnet, two of everything.
Twin turbos with one big and one small. In this case the small turbo kicks in first and gives some boost early on at low revs to reduce lag etc. Then at high revs the big turbo kicks as the small one is running out of steam. If you just had the small one you'd have no top end, if you just had the big one you'd have a laggy engine with no power below 5000 rpm. In this case just one wastegate, one dump valve.
Twin equal size small turbos on perhaps a V8. Each turbo serves half the V8 so each is the same as the turbo on a 4 cylinder engine, so has wastegate, dump valve etc etc. Just like two turbo'd 4 cyl engines under one bonnet, two of everything.
Twin turbos with one big and one small. In this case the small turbo kicks in first and gives some boost early on at low revs to reduce lag etc. Then at high revs the big turbo kicks as the small one is running out of steam. If you just had the small one you'd have no top end, if you just had the big one you'd have a laggy engine with no power below 5000 rpm. In this case just one wastegate, one dump valve.
12 August 2005, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Chelspeed
Two types of twin turbo.
Twin equal size small turbos on perhaps a V8. Each turbo serves half the V8 so each is the same as the turbo on a 4 cylinder engine, so has wastegate, dump valve etc etc. Just like two turbo'd 4 cyl engines under one bonnet, two of everything.
Twin turbos with one big and one small. In this case the small turbo kicks in first and gives some boost early on at low revs to reduce lag etc. Then at high revs the big turbo kicks as the small one is running out of steam. If you just had the small one you'd have no top end, if you just had the big one you'd have a laggy engine with no power below 5000 rpm. In this case just one wastegate, one dump valve.
Twin equal size small turbos on perhaps a V8. Each turbo serves half the V8 so each is the same as the turbo on a 4 cylinder engine, so has wastegate, dump valve etc etc. Just like two turbo'd 4 cyl engines under one bonnet, two of everything.
Twin turbos with one big and one small. In this case the small turbo kicks in first and gives some boost early on at low revs to reduce lag etc. Then at high revs the big turbo kicks as the small one is running out of steam. If you just had the small one you'd have no top end, if you just had the big one you'd have a laggy engine with no power below 5000 rpm. In this case just one wastegate, one dump valve.
12 August 2005, 08:17 AM
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My guess is that the smaller turbo has a wastegate that dumps into the biger turbo to stop it over-speeding at high revs then the big turbo has it's own wastegate. Probably only one dump valve though.
12 August 2005, 09:31 AM
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A sequential turbo system will work along the lines of:
At low speed, all exhaust flow is to the primary turbo (which will have it's wastegate closed). Gasses can back up to the secondary turbo, but is not allowed to flow through the turbo due to a valve (similar to a wastegate) blocking the exit pipe. Usually, on the inlet tract, a strangler valve stops charge flow reaching the compressor. As the engine speed and exhaust flow increases, the primary turbo's compressor flow and boost will being to peak. Usually, the wastegate would be actuated at this time, but in a sequential set-up, the ECU will signal the secondary turbo's exit valve to begin opening. This allows flow through the bigger turbo, allowing it to spool. However, as the strangler valve is still closed, and the compressor blow-off valve is open, the turbo does not supply any air to the engine, all flow is essentially closed-loop from the compressor.
As the rpm's and exhaust flow increase further, the ECU signals to fully open the secondary turbo's blocker valve, which simultaneously closes the inlet vent valve. The strangler valve now opens as boost pressure rises, and the secondary turbo's compressor begins to supply air flow to the engine. As flow from this compressor continues to rise, boost will again peak, the ECU pulses the wastegate to avoid an overboost scenario!
Edited to change bigger/smaller to primrary/secondary!
At low speed, all exhaust flow is to the primary turbo (which will have it's wastegate closed). Gasses can back up to the secondary turbo, but is not allowed to flow through the turbo due to a valve (similar to a wastegate) blocking the exit pipe. Usually, on the inlet tract, a strangler valve stops charge flow reaching the compressor. As the engine speed and exhaust flow increases, the primary turbo's compressor flow and boost will being to peak. Usually, the wastegate would be actuated at this time, but in a sequential set-up, the ECU will signal the secondary turbo's exit valve to begin opening. This allows flow through the bigger turbo, allowing it to spool. However, as the strangler valve is still closed, and the compressor blow-off valve is open, the turbo does not supply any air to the engine, all flow is essentially closed-loop from the compressor.
As the rpm's and exhaust flow increase further, the ECU signals to fully open the secondary turbo's blocker valve, which simultaneously closes the inlet vent valve. The strangler valve now opens as boost pressure rises, and the secondary turbo's compressor begins to supply air flow to the engine. As flow from this compressor continues to rise, boost will again peak, the ECU pulses the wastegate to avoid an overboost scenario!
Edited to change bigger/smaller to primrary/secondary!
Last edited by TonyFlow; 12 August 2005 at 09:33 AM.
12 August 2005, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by TonyFlow
A sequential turbo system will work along the lines of:
At low speed, all exhaust flow is to the primary turbo (which will have it's wastegate closed). Gasses can back up to the secondary turbo, but is not allowed to flow through the turbo due to a valve (similar to a wastegate) blocking the exit pipe. Usually, on the inlet tract, a strangler valve stops charge flow reaching the compressor. As the engine speed and exhaust flow increases, the primary turbo's compressor flow and boost will being to peak. Usually, the wastegate would be actuated at this time, but in a sequential set-up, the ECU will signal the secondary turbo's exit valve to begin opening. This allows flow through the bigger turbo, allowing it to spool. However, as the strangler valve is still closed, and the compressor blow-off valve is open, the turbo does not supply any air to the engine, all flow is essentially closed-loop from the compressor.
As the rpm's and exhaust flow increase further, the ECU signals to fully open the secondary turbo's blocker valve, which simultaneously closes the inlet vent valve. The strangler valve now opens as boost pressure rises, and the secondary turbo's compressor begins to supply air flow to the engine. As flow from this compressor continues to rise, boost will again peak, the ECU pulses the wastegate to avoid an overboost scenario!
Edited to change bigger/smaller to primrary/secondary!
At low speed, all exhaust flow is to the primary turbo (which will have it's wastegate closed). Gasses can back up to the secondary turbo, but is not allowed to flow through the turbo due to a valve (similar to a wastegate) blocking the exit pipe. Usually, on the inlet tract, a strangler valve stops charge flow reaching the compressor. As the engine speed and exhaust flow increases, the primary turbo's compressor flow and boost will being to peak. Usually, the wastegate would be actuated at this time, but in a sequential set-up, the ECU will signal the secondary turbo's exit valve to begin opening. This allows flow through the bigger turbo, allowing it to spool. However, as the strangler valve is still closed, and the compressor blow-off valve is open, the turbo does not supply any air to the engine, all flow is essentially closed-loop from the compressor.
As the rpm's and exhaust flow increase further, the ECU signals to fully open the secondary turbo's blocker valve, which simultaneously closes the inlet vent valve. The strangler valve now opens as boost pressure rises, and the secondary turbo's compressor begins to supply air flow to the engine. As flow from this compressor continues to rise, boost will again peak, the ECU pulses the wastegate to avoid an overboost scenario!
Edited to change bigger/smaller to primrary/secondary!
i was thinking along those lines but the hour was too late for little swirling air diagrams in my head...
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12 August 2005, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by tath
thank you
i was thinking along those lines but the hour was too late for little swirling air diagrams in my head...
i was thinking along those lines but the hour was too late for little swirling air diagrams in my head...
13 August 2005, 09:01 AM
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What book was that Tony? Thats a good well detailed description.
Its a myth that sequential systems have one small and one large turbo. They could either be of any size. In the case of the leggy TT they are both near enough equally tiny.
Its a myth that sequential systems have one small and one large turbo. They could either be of any size. In the case of the leggy TT they are both near enough equally tiny.
13 August 2005, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by DuncanG
What book was that Tony? Thats a good well detailed description.
Its a myth that sequential systems have one small and one large turbo. They could either be of any size. In the case of the leggy TT they are both near enough equally tiny.
Its a myth that sequential systems have one small and one large turbo. They could either be of any size. In the case of the leggy TT they are both near enough equally tiny.
it's just a 180deg V-engine (so there's two banks of cylinders). So each tiny turbo feeds one bank?
13 August 2005, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by DuncanG
What book was that Tony? Thats a good well detailed description.
Its a myth that sequential systems have one small and one large turbo. They could either be of any size. In the case of the leggy TT they are both near enough equally tiny.
Its a myth that sequential systems have one small and one large turbo. They could either be of any size. In the case of the leggy TT they are both near enough equally tiny.
Excellent book - very concisive - although needs to be read a few times for most of it to be "absorbed" (and is fantastic for pretending to be knowledgable by plagiarising and not admitting to it!)
14 August 2005, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by tath
forgive me if i'm wrong but the legacy is a flat four?
it's just a 180deg V-engine (so there's two banks of cylinders). So each tiny turbo feeds one bank?
it's just a 180deg V-engine (so there's two banks of cylinders). So each tiny turbo feeds one bank?
Not knowin yer Scoobies... 
All Subarus are boxers.The Legacy twin turbo is a sequential twin turbo design: primary feeds at low engine speeds, providing fast spool up and good response. At hgher speeds the secondary is introduced - working with the primary - to push high outputs.
HTH
14 August 2005, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by AJbaseBloke
Sin Bin for you m8 Not knowin yer Scoobies... All Subarus are boxers.
Not knowin yer Scoobies... All Subarus are boxers. You can't parallel T/C a four cylinder anyhow it would have to be sequential..!
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