Solid/Frozen Carbon Dioxide (Dry Ice). Cooling potential on TMIC?
02 June 2005, 12:49 PM
#1
Solid/Frozen Carbon Dioxide (Dry Ice). Cooling potential on TMIC?
Search facility is down at the moment so not sure to what extent this has been covered before (although I'm sure it has).
Trying to find the best solution for combating heatsoak, mainly on dragstrips where track marshalls can be fussy about the use of waterspray.
Problem with water/ice is that it can drip onto the track. From memory 'plumbers freeze spray' wasnt effective enough to cool a i/c.
Which leads me to Frozen/Solid Carbon Dioxide (aka dry ice). Its surface temp is -78.5deg C (or thereabouts) which sounds like alot of cooling potential.
I guess I'm missing something obvious here as to why people dont use it on tmics (that I know of)? Does it cool too much, causing components to become fragile?
I look forward to peoples views.
Bob
Trying to find the best solution for combating heatsoak, mainly on dragstrips where track marshalls can be fussy about the use of waterspray.
Problem with water/ice is that it can drip onto the track. From memory 'plumbers freeze spray' wasnt effective enough to cool a i/c.
Which leads me to Frozen/Solid Carbon Dioxide (aka dry ice). Its surface temp is -78.5deg C (or thereabouts) which sounds like alot of cooling potential.
I guess I'm missing something obvious here as to why people dont use it on tmics (that I know of)? Does it cool too much, causing components to become fragile?
I look forward to peoples views.
Bob
02 June 2005, 02:53 PM
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I think Tech-art or Gemballa used dry ice on their Porsche Turbo monsters when they did high speed runs and circuits of the Nurburgring.
IMO dry ice and fans would be best.
J.
IMO dry ice and fans would be best.
J.
02 June 2005, 03:15 PM
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Probably obvious but if you are driving around with a box of dry ice in the car, please put the windows down or else as it melts and releases CO2 you are going to suffocate
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02 June 2005, 05:38 PM
#8
Bob:
I did a thread on this topic about 2 years ago which got quite techie in places.
The CO2 approach is expensive to install and charge the bottle etc (adds weight too)
If you turn the TMIC into an iceburg you may well insulate the TMIC core from the cooling effect.
To cool the matrix/core you need to transfer heat and dissipate it away to allow the next 'wave' of cold medium to pass through the TMIC core.
This is why the fans appeal, air will flow well through the core matrix, dissipate and allow the flow of coler air to do its job.
Problem is the incomming air may not be too cold on a sunny day. So, add cold water atomised as best as you can into the fast airflow (the fan blades might help atomise the water) and you will rapidly chill that air being forced into the core by the fans.
I still prefer the idea of pushing the air through the matrix (fans on top) rather than sucking the wet air (fans below) myself, but most cooling set-ups are 'suck'.
This all asks the question why has nobody made a TMIC fan kit as a bolt-on with integrated water spray jets/bars?
Food for thought.
Graham.
I did a thread on this topic about 2 years ago which got quite techie in places.
The CO2 approach is expensive to install and charge the bottle etc (adds weight too)
If you turn the TMIC into an iceburg you may well insulate the TMIC core from the cooling effect.
To cool the matrix/core you need to transfer heat and dissipate it away to allow the next 'wave' of cold medium to pass through the TMIC core.
This is why the fans appeal, air will flow well through the core matrix, dissipate and allow the flow of coler air to do its job.
Problem is the incomming air may not be too cold on a sunny day. So, add cold water atomised as best as you can into the fast airflow (the fan blades might help atomise the water) and you will rapidly chill that air being forced into the core by the fans.
I still prefer the idea of pushing the air through the matrix (fans on top) rather than sucking the wet air (fans below) myself, but most cooling set-ups are 'suck'.
This all asks the question why has nobody made a TMIC fan kit as a bolt-on with integrated water spray jets/bars?
Food for thought.
Graham.
02 June 2005, 05:52 PM
#9
Graham,
Thanks for the response. I do recall a similar thread quite a while back.
Could you elaborate as to why its not good to have a frozen i/c?
Air passes through the i/c and the colder the fins then the colder the air going into the TB?
Or am I missing something?
Water and ice seemed to work quite well but its a problem with the marshalls.
Bob
PS. Managed to muster a 1.70 60ft on the weekend and a 0.18 reaction time
Thanks for the response. I do recall a similar thread quite a while back.
Could you elaborate as to why its not good to have a frozen i/c?
Air passes through the i/c and the colder the fins then the colder the air going into the TB?
Or am I missing something?
Water and ice seemed to work quite well but its a problem with the marshalls.
Bob
PS. Managed to muster a 1.70 60ft on the weekend and a 0.18 reaction time
02 June 2005, 06:58 PM
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Thermodynamics isn't always as logical as it would appear. You are relying on a fluid giving up it's excess heat to an aluminium metalic matrix which then passes the heat energy away to the passing airflow. This process is actually more efficient when the temperature changes are fairly small. Therefore supercooling the fins will repel the fluid molecules and prevent them giving up their heat energy thus actually making the matrix inefficient and retaining heat in the charge flow.
Water spray on the other hand improves the removal of heat from the aluminium fins through evaporation which is more efficient than simple contact cooling and removes heat without supercooling the fins.
An additional way to improve the evaporation cooling effect is to add methanol to your water spray which evaporates more readily than water and again dissipates heat energy from the matrix more efficiently. Methanol is inflamable however so should not be used 'neat' and a 20%-30% solution by volume with water in a water spray system should enhance the cycle.
Water spray on the other hand improves the removal of heat from the aluminium fins through evaporation which is more efficient than simple contact cooling and removes heat without supercooling the fins.
An additional way to improve the evaporation cooling effect is to add methanol to your water spray which evaporates more readily than water and again dissipates heat energy from the matrix more efficiently. Methanol is inflamable however so should not be used 'neat' and a 20%-30% solution by volume with water in a water spray system should enhance the cycle.
02 June 2005, 10:17 PM
#11
There you go.
Told you it gets a bit techie!
The thread went through the methanol bit and with the turbo soooo very close to the TMIC...maybe not too good!
This is why I arrived at high velocity fans (3 on the V8 TMIC maybe with atomised water into the fans and full freedom for the (warmed) water to drain/get blown through.
Hard bit will be to get a reasonable even cooling off the fans as you have 2 or 3 round fans over a rectangular matrix = hot corners and centre spots.
Also you need to cool the TMIC 'tanks' which are heavy and will hold a lot of heat.
for the pre start hill climb bit, I quench the warm TMIC with cold water/spong to drown the matrix and tanks as much as I can with the bonnet open, closing it all at the last moment when the spray takes over with ice cubes in the water bottle.
What a fuss..
At SSO Ireland ran his FMIC with CO2 and onto something under the bonnet by the fuel filter area, never saw his engine with the bonnet open.
Lots of hissing and stuff, but went really well.
Graham.
Told you it gets a bit techie!
The thread went through the methanol bit and with the turbo soooo very close to the TMIC...maybe not too good!
This is why I arrived at high velocity fans (3 on the V8 TMIC maybe with atomised water into the fans and full freedom for the (warmed) water to drain/get blown through.
Hard bit will be to get a reasonable even cooling off the fans as you have 2 or 3 round fans over a rectangular matrix = hot corners and centre spots.
Also you need to cool the TMIC 'tanks' which are heavy and will hold a lot of heat.
for the pre start hill climb bit, I quench the warm TMIC with cold water/spong to drown the matrix and tanks as much as I can with the bonnet open, closing it all at the last moment when the spray takes over with ice cubes in the water bottle.
What a fuss..
At SSO Ireland ran his FMIC with CO2 and onto something under the bonnet by the fuel filter area, never saw his engine with the bonnet open.
Lots of hissing and stuff, but went really well.
Graham.
Last edited by 911; 02 June 2005 at 10:19 PM.
03 June 2005, 01:28 PM
#12
Does indeed get techie.
May well just have to re-locate the washer bottle away from under the bonnet and take lots of ice. Took 5 little bottles of frozen Evian last time and had to cut the bottles open and then cut the ice down until it went into the washer bottle. What a b@ll-ache.
Thanks for the response guys.
Bob
May well just have to re-locate the washer bottle away from under the bonnet and take lots of ice. Took 5 little bottles of frozen Evian last time and had to cut the bottles open and then cut the ice down until it went into the washer bottle. What a b@ll-ache.
Thanks for the response guys.
Bob
03 June 2005, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by 911
Bob:
I did a thread on this topic about 2 years ago which got quite techie in places.
The CO2 approach is expensive to install and charge the bottle etc (adds weight too)
If you turn the TMIC into an iceburg you may well insulate the TMIC core from the cooling effect.
To cool the matrix/core you need to transfer heat and dissipate it away to allow the next 'wave' of cold medium to pass through the TMIC core.
This is why the fans appeal, air will flow well through the core matrix, dissipate and allow the flow of coler air to do its job.
Problem is the incomming air may not be too cold on a sunny day. So, add cold water atomised as best as you can into the fast airflow (the fan blades might help atomise the water) and you will rapidly chill that air being forced into the core by the fans.
I still prefer the idea of pushing the air through the matrix (fans on top) rather than sucking the wet air (fans below) myself, but most cooling set-ups are 'suck'.
This all asks the question why has nobody made a TMIC fan kit as a bolt-on with integrated water spray jets/bars?
Food for thought.
Graham.
I did a thread on this topic about 2 years ago which got quite techie in places.
The CO2 approach is expensive to install and charge the bottle etc (adds weight too)
If you turn the TMIC into an iceburg you may well insulate the TMIC core from the cooling effect.
To cool the matrix/core you need to transfer heat and dissipate it away to allow the next 'wave' of cold medium to pass through the TMIC core.
This is why the fans appeal, air will flow well through the core matrix, dissipate and allow the flow of coler air to do its job.
Problem is the incomming air may not be too cold on a sunny day. So, add cold water atomised as best as you can into the fast airflow (the fan blades might help atomise the water) and you will rapidly chill that air being forced into the core by the fans.
I still prefer the idea of pushing the air through the matrix (fans on top) rather than sucking the wet air (fans below) myself, but most cooling set-ups are 'suck'.
This all asks the question why has nobody made a TMIC fan kit as a bolt-on with integrated water spray jets/bars?
Food for thought.
Graham.
On your atomised water theory, you can get these wonderful "fogger" devices in maplins very cheap... they used ultrasonics to atomise water and work pretty well... also just running one next to you you can feel the cooling effect it has.... only problems would be getting the atomised water to pass over the TMIC....
03 June 2005, 04:38 PM
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Aquamist. Atomised water injected IN to the INTAKE MANIFOLD to cool the charge...
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/
Works extremely well here in South Africa with our 35+ degrees celsius temps and 93 max (Yek!) octane fuel.
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/
Works extremely well here in South Africa with our 35+ degrees celsius temps and 93 max (Yek!) octane fuel.
03 June 2005, 05:38 PM
#17
Think so Bob.
There is a lull in the hill climb calander in july, so will try to get the bits together then.
I think you can get 2 x 7.5 or 2 x 8'' fans in there over a V8 TMIC.
Rest is easy, just got to find some weather proof fans.
Graham.
There is a lull in the hill climb calander in july, so will try to get the bits together then.
I think you can get 2 x 7.5 or 2 x 8'' fans in there over a V8 TMIC.
Rest is easy, just got to find some weather proof fans.
Graham.
07 June 2010, 07:01 PM
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Graham is busy with his Lola on 22B...
I'd say a solid co2 plus chargecooler as used at Bonneville is the best compromise, except for added weight.
What's NO2 cost nowadays, it's not just for the F&F movies....
dunx
I'd say a solid co2 plus chargecooler as used at Bonneville is the best compromise, except for added weight.
What's NO2 cost nowadays, it's not just for the F&F movies....
dunx
08 June 2010, 07:25 AM
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