PE STi-V ECU mapping - progress?
16 August 1999, 08:07 PM
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Hi all,
I didn't manage to get along to the Dyno Day where I wanted to ask what progress has been made on the ECU re-mapping for the STi-V to solve the problem of the melting pistons.
I havn't seen anything on the bbs for a while, and I wanted to know what the situation is on this upgrade as, for me, it is a must-have before I shell out my wedge on the car.
The last I heard was that it was 'about 6 weeks away', and that was about a month and a half ago, so any new info would be greatly appreciated.
TIA, Ross.
I didn't manage to get along to the Dyno Day where I wanted to ask what progress has been made on the ECU re-mapping for the STi-V to solve the problem of the melting pistons.
I havn't seen anything on the bbs for a while, and I wanted to know what the situation is on this upgrade as, for me, it is a must-have before I shell out my wedge on the car.
The last I heard was that it was 'about 6 weeks away', and that was about a month and a half ago, so any new info would be greatly appreciated.
TIA, Ross.
16 August 1999, 08:49 PM
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Hi Ross,
I called PE today. David is on holiday - for 2 wks I think.
He then goes to Japan to sort out the MY99 remaps. So it'll be at least another month - my guess > 6 weeks.
Apparently they will have their own STi V which will be a test bed. As stated elsewhere on the BB - they will attempt to deliver maps for both 95 and 98 RON. The cost will be similar to the remaps already supplied for the older models.
Like you I'm very interested in the results.
Ricky T
I called PE today. David is on holiday - for 2 wks I think.
He then goes to Japan to sort out the MY99 remaps. So it'll be at least another month - my guess > 6 weeks.
Apparently they will have their own STi V which will be a test bed. As stated elsewhere on the BB - they will attempt to deliver maps for both 95 and 98 RON. The cost will be similar to the remaps already supplied for the older models.
Like you I'm very interested in the results.
Ricky T
16 August 1999, 09:01 PM
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After speaking to David about this on Saturday, he was suggesting that the remap will be done for 95RON only. He went on to say that this will probably have no effect on the gains in power and tourque possible with this upgrade.
16 August 1999, 10:44 PM
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Has anyone considered a Possum Link replacement ecu as opposed to a remap?
If you allow for a couple hours of dyno time to properly set up the Possum Link the cost is about the same. The Possum Link has the advantage that you can adjust it yourself (i.e. one setup for U/L and one for SU/L) and when you sell your car you have an item of some value.
If you allow for a couple hours of dyno time to properly set up the Possum Link the cost is about the same. The Possum Link has the advantage that you can adjust it yourself (i.e. one setup for U/L and one for SU/L) and when you sell your car you have an item of some value.
18 August 1999, 11:56 AM
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Re. remapping, do PE do this for all models, i.e my '94 WRX??
I am very naive in this area and would appreciate some help?
Does the car go on the rolling road, they look at the graphs and then do some adjustments? What actually happens?? I would feel happier knowing that everything was set up correctly.
Thanks.
PS. What kind of money are we looking at?
I am very naive in this area and would appreciate some help?
Does the car go on the rolling road, they look at the graphs and then do some adjustments? What actually happens?? I would feel happier knowing that everything was set up correctly.
Thanks.
PS. What kind of money are we looking at?
18 August 1999, 01:47 PM
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Mossman,
I have a MY94 WRX and have had the PE Phase 1 conversion.
To put things in perspective, I also have a SS downpipe & backbox, and Blitz induction kit.
To start with I had a superchip and got 269 BHP @ 5600 rpm and 270 lb/ft @ 4000 rpm. (and lots of detonation on the track)
With the PE Phase 1 I now get 291 BHP @ 6200 and 280 lb/ft @ 4000 rpm. (and no detonation).
The figues speak for themselves.
The cost is £650 (+ VAT?) and you should get similar results
[This message has been edited by Stuart Knight (edited 18-08-1999).]
[This message has been edited by Stuart Knight (edited 18-08-1999).]
I have a MY94 WRX and have had the PE Phase 1 conversion.
To put things in perspective, I also have a SS downpipe & backbox, and Blitz induction kit.
To start with I had a superchip and got 269 BHP @ 5600 rpm and 270 lb/ft @ 4000 rpm. (and lots of detonation on the track)
With the PE Phase 1 I now get 291 BHP @ 6200 and 280 lb/ft @ 4000 rpm. (and no detonation).
The figues speak for themselves.
The cost is £650 (+ VAT?) and you should get similar results
[This message has been edited by Stuart Knight (edited 18-08-1999).]
[This message has been edited by Stuart Knight (edited 18-08-1999).]
18 August 1999, 04:12 PM
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As a relatively new member of this BBS, I have carefully read all the discussions about the STi V ECU, its behaviour with the UK petrol (95 and 98), as well as what members like to call 'melting pistons'. While I may be wrong, it seems that there was only ONE (or TWO, perhaps) melted pistons as a consequence of 95 octane petrol used and not when SUL was applied. Also, if one takes into account the total number of STi Vs in the UK since its introduction (all versions)a couple of cases of one melted piston (out of 4 in each engine, that is) with a low-octane petrol should not be such an alarming thing. I certainly do not wish to say that remapped ECUs (such as one in preparation by PE) may not be a better solution, but I would like more technically and rationally substantiated discussions to take place, rather than accept something that someone 'chose' to be the major cause of all problems. While individual samples of the same product can and will differ up to a certain extent, variations are not big and, in particular, chipsets employed in ECUs in cars are programmed not one by one, but in large quantities without any variations in their binary codes, etc. Personally, even if nobody advised us to do so, I would never use a standard UL petrol on any car which tends to offer a degree of special performance. Why? Simply because it does perform better with more octanes available! I have been driving all and sundry Imprezas for a number of years, always used Shell, Esso or Mobil SUL in the UK and elsewhere and never ever had any problems of any kind (melting, pinking or otherwise). Needless to say, I am not interested in keeping the rev counter near the red line longer than necessary and I do not take part on track days as those have nothing to do with everyday's (fast) use of any car in this world.
Perhaps other members will be kind enough to teach me as many lessons as humanly possible, but I still feel a more firm contact with the ground we walk on couldn't go amiss, rather than accepting anything and everything those who make a living out of us are ready to serve.
Perhaps other members will be kind enough to teach me as many lessons as humanly possible, but I still feel a more firm contact with the ground we walk on couldn't go amiss, rather than accepting anything and everything those who make a living out of us are ready to serve.
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18 August 1999, 05:37 PM
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Quattro,
What I will say is that track driving has every relevance to everyday fast driving.
It is not possible to appraoch th limits of decent performance cars, safely on the road.
The only way you will ever find out what the limitations are, are on the track.
I have an STi V, and despite what you say, there obviously is a problem. A modern car shouldn't do that - the safety envelope should be bigger.
I admit, you would have too be a bit daft to run on STi on UL - makes me think what's the point of owning the car - where else do you start to skimp?
I would prefer to know - if these warnings hadn't been posted, I would have done a couple of track days already - and that's tempting fate.
Because of the postings my feet are well and truly planted. Until someone convinces me otherwise!
What I will say is that track driving has every relevance to everyday fast driving.
It is not possible to appraoch th limits of decent performance cars, safely on the road.
The only way you will ever find out what the limitations are, are on the track.
I have an STi V, and despite what you say, there obviously is a problem. A modern car shouldn't do that - the safety envelope should be bigger.
I admit, you would have too be a bit daft to run on STi on UL - makes me think what's the point of owning the car - where else do you start to skimp?
I would prefer to know - if these warnings hadn't been posted, I would have done a couple of track days already - and that's tempting fate.
Because of the postings my feet are well and truly planted. Until someone convinces me otherwise!
18 August 1999, 06:02 PM
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Quattro
One of the cars with melted pistons was running Super. PE have seen a number of STI V's pinking on the Rollers and let customers hear it. No one knows the number of cars that have had a problem. In fact someone on IWOC mentioned yesterday that they have heard of two RB5's with this problem. (STI V to RB5- good move by me!!). It does look like the ECU in the 99 is a bit close to the limit.
My importer of my STI V has said the warranty cost has now doubled on the STI. Doesnt know why though and one warranty company wont touch them anymore.
Jonathan
One of the cars with melted pistons was running Super. PE have seen a number of STI V's pinking on the Rollers and let customers hear it. No one knows the number of cars that have had a problem. In fact someone on IWOC mentioned yesterday that they have heard of two RB5's with this problem. (STI V to RB5- good move by me!!). It does look like the ECU in the 99 is a bit close to the limit.
My importer of my STI V has said the warranty cost has now doubled on the STI. Doesnt know why though and one warranty company wont touch them anymore.
Jonathan
18 August 1999, 06:04 PM
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I also run an STI V Type R and was at the same track day where Rupert managed to put a hole in his piston and even filled up at the same garage as him before going to Wroughton!
Subaru are having to walk a very fine line between a car that performs well and one that is environmentally friendly and this is part of the problem.
The other part of the problem is that the cars are setup to run on higher octane rated petrol than we can get in the UK and also to provide even more power on higher than 100 RON octane petrol that is available in Japan. To achieve this the cars are running very close to the limit with regards to detonation when on 98 RON petrol and they can get themselves into a potential loop which is that the engine is getting hotter and starting to pink so they retard the ignition but the engine is still getting hotter and eventually they drop off the bottom of the map so dont know how to retard the ignition any further. This is the explanation given to me by Dave Power. Now if that was the complete answer then why have all STI V's not had a problem? I know that Jonathan Rigby was regularly bouncing his STI V off the rev limiter at donnington as will people who where following him and getting covered in flames!!!! So I personally still feel that there is something else at fault with the couple of cars that have melted a piston. Ruperts car I know was running on Super Unleaded but I am not sure about the other car.
My personal opinion is that there may have been a fault with Ruperts car this may have been a faulty sensor or a weak piston but there are far too many STI V's in the country now being driven hard for this to be a general fault if the car is given a diet of SUL. I know of at least 4 other STI V's that are driven hard on track days and dont have problems and up until recently none of these cars have been using an octane booster.
I have heard quotes that more STI 4's have melted pistons than STI V's from importers make of that what you will!
Darren
Subaru are having to walk a very fine line between a car that performs well and one that is environmentally friendly and this is part of the problem.
The other part of the problem is that the cars are setup to run on higher octane rated petrol than we can get in the UK and also to provide even more power on higher than 100 RON octane petrol that is available in Japan. To achieve this the cars are running very close to the limit with regards to detonation when on 98 RON petrol and they can get themselves into a potential loop which is that the engine is getting hotter and starting to pink so they retard the ignition but the engine is still getting hotter and eventually they drop off the bottom of the map so dont know how to retard the ignition any further. This is the explanation given to me by Dave Power. Now if that was the complete answer then why have all STI V's not had a problem? I know that Jonathan Rigby was regularly bouncing his STI V off the rev limiter at donnington as will people who where following him and getting covered in flames!!!! So I personally still feel that there is something else at fault with the couple of cars that have melted a piston. Ruperts car I know was running on Super Unleaded but I am not sure about the other car.
My personal opinion is that there may have been a fault with Ruperts car this may have been a faulty sensor or a weak piston but there are far too many STI V's in the country now being driven hard for this to be a general fault if the car is given a diet of SUL. I know of at least 4 other STI V's that are driven hard on track days and dont have problems and up until recently none of these cars have been using an octane booster.
I have heard quotes that more STI 4's have melted pistons than STI V's from importers make of that what you will!
Darren
19 August 1999, 04:21 PM
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Craig H
Your comments taken on board. I very much regret to say this, but I still DO NOT need a track day to establish the limitations you were addressing. Also, I am pretty much convinced (and this is, as we all know, a subjective term) that there is much more to those (two that we seem to know of, correct?) melted pistons than either the petrol/octane issue. I have only been rallying for years (and no melted pistons in my 'career, thank God), so would not know about driving on track days and what people do to their cars when these events take place. Perhaps they just drive them as they should be driven, or...? In any case, we shall all reserve our judgements and some of us will have melted pistons and some of us won't. By the way, I most certainly do NOT want a melted piston in my engine, red line or not.
Darren Soothill
Absolutely agree with your response and comments. One of the very few which rationally and precisely deduces the inconsistency of ALMOST EVERY PARAMETER involved in the whole discussions about the STi V and pistons. No one really knows what goes inside the engine(s) with a problem and it is very unlikely that enough data will ever be compiled to substantiate anything in a 'water-holding' manner. Instead of all the guess work, let us hope that there will be no melted pistons or other problems on STi 3s, 4s, 5, 6s and others once PE bring their magic into the game. God forbid a melted piston then. It would mean the whole debate would be back to square one which is only good for the bulletin board.
Your comments taken on board. I very much regret to say this, but I still DO NOT need a track day to establish the limitations you were addressing. Also, I am pretty much convinced (and this is, as we all know, a subjective term) that there is much more to those (two that we seem to know of, correct?) melted pistons than either the petrol/octane issue. I have only been rallying for years (and no melted pistons in my 'career, thank God), so would not know about driving on track days and what people do to their cars when these events take place. Perhaps they just drive them as they should be driven, or...? In any case, we shall all reserve our judgements and some of us will have melted pistons and some of us won't. By the way, I most certainly do NOT want a melted piston in my engine, red line or not.
Darren Soothill
Absolutely agree with your response and comments. One of the very few which rationally and precisely deduces the inconsistency of ALMOST EVERY PARAMETER involved in the whole discussions about the STi V and pistons. No one really knows what goes inside the engine(s) with a problem and it is very unlikely that enough data will ever be compiled to substantiate anything in a 'water-holding' manner. Instead of all the guess work, let us hope that there will be no melted pistons or other problems on STi 3s, 4s, 5, 6s and others once PE bring their magic into the game. God forbid a melted piston then. It would mean the whole debate would be back to square one which is only good for the bulletin board.
19 August 1999, 04:59 PM
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Quattro,
I would partly agree that the cars were being driven as they should be capable of, i.e, they're the supposed factory uprated everything performance car and should be more than capable of that.
But everyone thinks SUL is the safe way to run these cars - obviously not!
Maybe the safest way is to have the rev limit set @ 7k, similar to the UK cars.
You should get on the track, you don't know what you're missing.
There is more to life than sliding round in the dirt!
I would partly agree that the cars were being driven as they should be capable of, i.e, they're the supposed factory uprated everything performance car and should be more than capable of that.
But everyone thinks SUL is the safe way to run these cars - obviously not!
Maybe the safest way is to have the rev limit set @ 7k, similar to the UK cars.
You should get on the track, you don't know what you're missing.
There is more to life than sliding round in the dirt!
19 August 1999, 07:33 PM
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Hi there,
What piston is it ?
I heard from HKS that it was piston number two ? And that there is a very slight problem with fueling ? Perhaps heightened by lower RON fuel ? Do the STI's blow in Japan ? Thats what we should be asking... We have established that there is a "problem" over here...but what about over there ? If they dont blow in Japan.. then that possibly points to the RON issue.... if theirs blow too, then perhaps there is a engine issue....oil flow...fueling, etc...
Anyways..I'm off
toodle-pip,
J.
What piston is it ?
I heard from HKS that it was piston number two ? And that there is a very slight problem with fueling ? Perhaps heightened by lower RON fuel ? Do the STI's blow in Japan ? Thats what we should be asking... We have established that there is a "problem" over here...but what about over there ? If they dont blow in Japan.. then that possibly points to the RON issue.... if theirs blow too, then perhaps there is a engine issue....oil flow...fueling, etc...
Anyways..I'm off
toodle-pip,
J.
19 August 1999, 09:38 PM
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Craig H
Too old for the racing track, I am afraid. And I DO know what I might be missing as rallying includes lots of tarmac rather than just 'sliding in the dirt' (for which, by the way you need torque that you and I both like much, much more than on any circuit).
You are right, what else can we do apart from using SUL. You seem to be in touch with all the developments - would that famous Silkolene octane booster really help? Assuming, of course, RON is the problem which we are not sure about. Limit at 7k? I don't know - even the fastest driving on the road I am occasionally prone to does not need anything over 7k as there isn't much left to be used up there. Take care.
Too old for the racing track, I am afraid. And I DO know what I might be missing as rallying includes lots of tarmac rather than just 'sliding in the dirt' (for which, by the way you need torque that you and I both like much, much more than on any circuit).
You are right, what else can we do apart from using SUL. You seem to be in touch with all the developments - would that famous Silkolene octane booster really help? Assuming, of course, RON is the problem which we are not sure about. Limit at 7k? I don't know - even the fastest driving on the road I am occasionally prone to does not need anything over 7k as there isn't much left to be used up there. Take care.
19 August 1999, 09:53 PM
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Firefox,
The piston nearest the passenger footwell. I've now had 3 experiences on 3 seperate Imprezas of this piston overheating due to failed water jacket. End result on my 2 Sports and 1 standard MY98 Turbo was piston slap when cold but could this be a factor here?
The piston nearest the passenger footwell. I've now had 3 experiences on 3 seperate Imprezas of this piston overheating due to failed water jacket. End result on my 2 Sports and 1 standard MY98 Turbo was piston slap when cold but could this be a factor here?
19 August 1999, 11:43 PM
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Hi Otis,
What failed on the Jacket? Blockage? Leak?
I'm not sure to be honest. I dont think that would be the reason. I havent seen the engines or spoke to the people. I am like most people on here...speculating....and stating a variety of reasons a piston/engine could go.
I need my beauty sleep...
byeeee
J.
What failed on the Jacket? Blockage? Leak?
I'm not sure to be honest. I dont think that would be the reason. I havent seen the engines or spoke to the people. I am like most people on here...speculating....and stating a variety of reasons a piston/engine could go.
I need my beauty sleep...
byeeee
J.
20 August 1999, 02:34 PM
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Quattro,
I applaud your claim for hard facts rather than "pub science", but there are a few points of yours I'd like to take up.
We may not have the facts in full (specifically, we don't know exactly how many of the failed engines were running on SUL) but in terms of calculated risks the various bit of hearsay _must_ carry some weight. You'd feel pretty foolish if you'd read all these postings, then went out on the track in your nice new STi5 and holed a piston (especially given what we've heard about third-party warrantys).
Also, you seem to imply that this issue has been exploited by vendors who stand to make a profit on the back of it. Power Engineering is the only vendor addressing the area at all, and David Power's postings just seem to be responses to various BBS users' concerns. He doesn't seem to be scaremongering (to me, anyway). Can you expand on your comment a bit?
Last and not least, I'm surprised by your comment regarding track days. As a rally driver, you must use a lot of techniques that are unsuitable for the public road, but I imagine that the experience as a whole still improves your road-driving abilities. For me and the many other people here who lack the time and money to get seriously into rallying or other forms of motorsport, track days provide an opportunity to safely familiarise ourselves with our cars' behaviour at the limit of adhesion. If I ever make a mistake on the road and find myself in a slide, I'm more likely to control it safely if I've done a few track days. Or is this a case of the famous "rally vs. circuit" divide that I've been told about?
Best regards,
-= mike =-
I applaud your claim for hard facts rather than "pub science", but there are a few points of yours I'd like to take up.
We may not have the facts in full (specifically, we don't know exactly how many of the failed engines were running on SUL) but in terms of calculated risks the various bit of hearsay _must_ carry some weight. You'd feel pretty foolish if you'd read all these postings, then went out on the track in your nice new STi5 and holed a piston (especially given what we've heard about third-party warrantys).
Also, you seem to imply that this issue has been exploited by vendors who stand to make a profit on the back of it. Power Engineering is the only vendor addressing the area at all, and David Power's postings just seem to be responses to various BBS users' concerns. He doesn't seem to be scaremongering (to me, anyway). Can you expand on your comment a bit?
Last and not least, I'm surprised by your comment regarding track days. As a rally driver, you must use a lot of techniques that are unsuitable for the public road, but I imagine that the experience as a whole still improves your road-driving abilities. For me and the many other people here who lack the time and money to get seriously into rallying or other forms of motorsport, track days provide an opportunity to safely familiarise ourselves with our cars' behaviour at the limit of adhesion. If I ever make a mistake on the road and find myself in a slide, I'm more likely to control it safely if I've done a few track days. Or is this a case of the famous "rally vs. circuit" divide that I've been told about?
Best regards,
-= mike =-
20 August 1999, 03:10 PM
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I'm pretty new to this discussion so sorry if this is a stupid question. Are Sti 5's melting pistons running on SUL only when they are being thrashed? Are they at risk when they are being driven on the road at under 6,000 revs? What is the best way to ensure that my new car doesn't blow up? When the ECU remapping is available will this cure the problem totally?
20 August 1999, 05:28 PM
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mike_nunan
Well done! A most constructive posting. Answers to your points as requested:
1) Not only we do not have FACTS IN FULL, but apart from a few (by now it seems to be 3 or 4, out of which 2 confirmed using low octane petrol) melted pistons reported, the only known FACT is that there is a lot of speculation on the subject. Yes, hearsay always carries some weight, but not a factual one. The last thing I want with my discussion is to annoy or irritate soulmates with STi Vs - I have one as well. What I want is to see a proper, rationally explicable diagnose and cure (if needed) as a result, and only those who understand engine mapping and associated behaviours could do that. And, no, I do not want a holed piston in my engine regardless of the warranty.
2)I am not only IMPLYING that this issue could and will be exploited by vendors who stand to make a profit on the back of it. I am SAYING THAT IS TO BE THE CASE and, essentially, there is nothing wrong with it for as long as we get something really useful and beneficial in return. You are correct, PE is the only vendor regularly mentioned around this issue, but let that not fool you. Look back, neither David Power nor PE have been very much present with their comments throughout this debate! It is US, MEMBERS who keep mentioning PE and DP as our saviours to be! Nice dyno days are one thing (and a commercial exercise, by the way) and this is something else!! David Power has placed only a few (possible and sensible) comments on the board, but, in the meantime (and allow me to be just a tad cynical) has been (according to to others) 'investigating the problem, gone to Japan, gone to holiday (that's fine by me, we should all do it), then will again go to Japan to investigate', etc., etc. On the other hand, intelligent and knowledgeable people stay quiet until they have something real to say (which is probably why the rest of us have to say so much) and I am not dismissing the possibility of DP or someone else telling us one if and what may be wrong and offering us an euqally sensible remedy. I know nothing about ECU mapping, but at the end of this millenium there are ways for people within the motor industry (not to be confused with motor trade!!!) who can get close to information and data which would help them decode what they need to decode and apply some other binary codes to change what may be good to change. After all, PE are one of the few with a 4-wheel drive rolling road which some other, at least equally competent software 'magic' companies, wish they had. Draw your own (temporary conclusions).
3) Last and not least, this is not a case of "rally vs. circuit" debate. I enormously respect all people in motorsport, whether in the forest or on the circuit. There are, however, other serious issues in your comment. Yes, I agree that decent rally and racing drivers do and should apply their motorsport skills as and when required on the open road (it saves life quite often, you know). More importantly though, unless you have a competent instructor in your car on a one-to-one basis on the track who can teach you all the skills we all wish to have as well as prealert you when you start approaching the limits of adhesion, the ONLY way to find out where these limits might be is to EXCEED THEM!! While it should be less mortally dangerous for that to happen on a track than on the road, I equally refuse to accept such an exercise as a way of 'familiarising yourself safely with our cars' behaviour at the limit of adhesion'. Nothing to with time and money, though, although you need some of both to even take part in a track day. I have not taken part on a track day for many years ( and when I did it was in a much slower car years ago), but I am pretty sure not much has changed in the character and approach of participants to track days.
Look forward to hearing from you. Maybe this bbs needs a devil's advocate and a conspiracy theory master. No, I am not volunteering!
quattro
[This message has been edited by quattro (edited 20-08-1999).]
Well done! A most constructive posting. Answers to your points as requested:
1) Not only we do not have FACTS IN FULL, but apart from a few (by now it seems to be 3 or 4, out of which 2 confirmed using low octane petrol) melted pistons reported, the only known FACT is that there is a lot of speculation on the subject. Yes, hearsay always carries some weight, but not a factual one. The last thing I want with my discussion is to annoy or irritate soulmates with STi Vs - I have one as well. What I want is to see a proper, rationally explicable diagnose and cure (if needed) as a result, and only those who understand engine mapping and associated behaviours could do that. And, no, I do not want a holed piston in my engine regardless of the warranty.
2)I am not only IMPLYING that this issue could and will be exploited by vendors who stand to make a profit on the back of it. I am SAYING THAT IS TO BE THE CASE and, essentially, there is nothing wrong with it for as long as we get something really useful and beneficial in return. You are correct, PE is the only vendor regularly mentioned around this issue, but let that not fool you. Look back, neither David Power nor PE have been very much present with their comments throughout this debate! It is US, MEMBERS who keep mentioning PE and DP as our saviours to be! Nice dyno days are one thing (and a commercial exercise, by the way) and this is something else!! David Power has placed only a few (possible and sensible) comments on the board, but, in the meantime (and allow me to be just a tad cynical) has been (according to to others) 'investigating the problem, gone to Japan, gone to holiday (that's fine by me, we should all do it), then will again go to Japan to investigate', etc., etc. On the other hand, intelligent and knowledgeable people stay quiet until they have something real to say (which is probably why the rest of us have to say so much) and I am not dismissing the possibility of DP or someone else telling us one if and what may be wrong and offering us an euqally sensible remedy. I know nothing about ECU mapping, but at the end of this millenium there are ways for people within the motor industry (not to be confused with motor trade!!!) who can get close to information and data which would help them decode what they need to decode and apply some other binary codes to change what may be good to change. After all, PE are one of the few with a 4-wheel drive rolling road which some other, at least equally competent software 'magic' companies, wish they had. Draw your own (temporary conclusions).
3) Last and not least, this is not a case of "rally vs. circuit" debate. I enormously respect all people in motorsport, whether in the forest or on the circuit. There are, however, other serious issues in your comment. Yes, I agree that decent rally and racing drivers do and should apply their motorsport skills as and when required on the open road (it saves life quite often, you know). More importantly though, unless you have a competent instructor in your car on a one-to-one basis on the track who can teach you all the skills we all wish to have as well as prealert you when you start approaching the limits of adhesion, the ONLY way to find out where these limits might be is to EXCEED THEM!! While it should be less mortally dangerous for that to happen on a track than on the road, I equally refuse to accept such an exercise as a way of 'familiarising yourself safely with our cars' behaviour at the limit of adhesion'. Nothing to with time and money, though, although you need some of both to even take part in a track day. I have not taken part on a track day for many years ( and when I did it was in a much slower car years ago), but I am pretty sure not much has changed in the character and approach of participants to track days.
Look forward to hearing from you. Maybe this bbs needs a devil's advocate and a conspiracy theory master. No, I am not volunteering!
quattro
[This message has been edited by quattro (edited 20-08-1999).]
20 August 1999, 06:31 PM
#23
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Thanks for the reply RBT, I certainly feel somewhat re-assured. After soiling myself earlier today after being told that Sti 5's were melting pistons, and I quote 'all over the place, on the track and road, on all sorts of fuel, when they were not being thrashed' by a company often mentioned in this BB, I called several of the best known importers and servicers and asked them if this was the case. I was told by all of them that they had sold a large number of Sti 5's and out of them only one had been back with a melted piston. This car had extensive engine mods and was run on UL. All vendors told me that there as a certain amount of hype regarding this and that Sti 5's were perfectly suited to being used everyday as a family car and then revved quite freely on both UL and SUL, although I was told that if I did take the car on a track to use SUL with an octane booster. I was also told that engine remapping would invalidate my warranty and that it does not need to be done. With all these garages I stated up-front that I had just bought a car and was not about to spend any money and simply wanted advice. I think they had little to gain by telling me lies. As the only person that told me that my engine blowing up was imminent also told me it could be fixed a about a months time at £650+VAT you draw your own conclusions. As I've said before I'm a novice to the complexities of Imprezas let alone Sti 5 ECU's so I can only draw my own conclusions from what I've been told by other people. I think we may all need a reality check on this issue!
20 August 1999, 08:03 PM
#24
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Couple of points I'm sure Rupert won't mind.
His piston did not melt, the rings seized in it causing severe piston slap. The repair involved replacing one piston and rings. the cause was indeed high revs on the track. The car was pinking on 98 ron (no octane booster) and Rupert could not tell cos he was wearing a helmet.
All the Imprezas seem to be "individuals" and some V's have been checked and found to be rich across the rev range and some have been found to be very lean at high revs. If you want some re-assurance spend £43 at PE and get your car checked (not mapped) with the Subaru diagnostic kit that they have. That will re-assure any owner regarding the state of his individual car.
I concur with the view that on 98 the V is perfectly safe for normal use, push them at peak revs on the track and its asking for trouble but ... didn't we all ought to have some mechanical sympathy for our cars ? Even Grand Prix cars sometimes give in.
Bob
His piston did not melt, the rings seized in it causing severe piston slap. The repair involved replacing one piston and rings. the cause was indeed high revs on the track. The car was pinking on 98 ron (no octane booster) and Rupert could not tell cos he was wearing a helmet.
All the Imprezas seem to be "individuals" and some V's have been checked and found to be rich across the rev range and some have been found to be very lean at high revs. If you want some re-assurance spend £43 at PE and get your car checked (not mapped) with the Subaru diagnostic kit that they have. That will re-assure any owner regarding the state of his individual car.
I concur with the view that on 98 the V is perfectly safe for normal use, push them at peak revs on the track and its asking for trouble but ... didn't we all ought to have some mechanical sympathy for our cars ? Even Grand Prix cars sometimes give in.
Bob
20 August 1999, 08:25 PM
#25
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In reply to a number of points.
Thank you for your concern about my holiday arrangements. I was only off for one week and that included dragging my girlfriend and daughter to a meeting with RALLIART and TVR on two of the days of this week.
Regarding the MY99 ecu (this has the same internal architecture as the STiV ECU). We are working hard on the project. We are not slipping out limited information to keep you all hanging on.
I cannot explain how difficult this process is but we are approaching it from three angles.
I cannot tell you how long before we are finished because we don't know if we are 25% from the start of solution or 25% from the end. If you understand what I mean. We won't know how long the project will take until it's finished.
I can only keep saying we are working on it both here and in Japan. I have just sent out there another two ECU's after the people working on it with us destroyed another five in the last four weeks.
I do not like to give a time schedule but you ask, so I say something rather than being rude. If I say nothing I am accused of adding nothing to the debate.
I am also being accused of inciting fear in the minds of STiV owners. Nothing could be further from the truth and NEVER have we said to anyone that their "engine blowing up was imminent".
We have a detonation data logger which monitors and records detonation as picked up by the engine knock sensor. All we do is test almost every STiV we have on the rolling road and we see detting on every single car we have tested. Not engine exploding detonation but it is there and the engine should not be running constantly on the knock sensor. If you have your car on the dyno at any stage we are happy to record this and show anyone.
Having said that this detonation is being controlled by the knock sensor system. However the difference between your engine working perfectly and failing is now in the hands of one sensor and a very high frequency, no voltage output travelling down a single shielded wire to your ECU, (shielded because the signal is so weak it must be protected from interference) .
For the record our advice is:
1/ Not to use STiV's on the track in very hot weather.
2/ Use octane booster for track use only.
3/ Use 98RON at all times.
4/ Intercooler spray is a good idea on all Imprezas.
5/ Water injection acts as a combustion delaying device and therefore retards the ignition and is a good idea on STiV only.
Regarding failures; the largest non manufacturer warranty company have stopped offering warranty on STiV's because of the engine claims record. That is official. Granted what I do not know is how many claims they have had but I suspect they would not stop offering warranty because of two claims.
There is a very simple reason for the problems which we have encountered. (When I say problem, I mean an engine running permanently on the knock sensor, not engine failure).
The reason is that at 0.8bar boost and from 2500-8000rpm the engine mapping has as much as 40% more advance than (for example) an STi4. This means we have at certain critical mapping points, 28 degrees advance and on STi4's 20 degrees.
Simple as that, nothing clever just very very precise advance mapping for use with 100RON fuel. (Japan uses 100 octane but I am not sure if they use the RON classification so we cannot even be sure the exact spec. of their fuel) No thought is given to export mapping because the STiV is not exported. Remember the amount of these cars presently in the UK amounts about 1 weeks production for Fuji.
A comment made about just "decode what they need to decode and apply some other binary codes to change what may be good to change" does oversimplify things. We can get the information out of the processor but this is in HEX and is scrambled for security reasons. This can easily be done by "competent software 'magic' companies" but has anyone ever met a software expert with 10 years engine mapping experience. Unfortunately both skills need combining to sort this.
Finally the reason I am delaying my trip to Japan to do some more work on the 99 ECU's is that we are having some major discussions with RALLIART and it would make sense to "kill two birds with one stone" if at all possible. However work is continuing out there as we sleep.
Does this "add to the debate"?
I am not seeking to be clever over this but it is not a simple subject and oversimplifying the problem and the debate helps no one.
Until such time as we have firm news on progress of our fix, we will remain out of the debate.
I hope this is of some help and re-assurance.
Thank you for your concern about my holiday arrangements. I was only off for one week and that included dragging my girlfriend and daughter to a meeting with RALLIART and TVR on two of the days of this week.
Regarding the MY99 ecu (this has the same internal architecture as the STiV ECU). We are working hard on the project. We are not slipping out limited information to keep you all hanging on.
I cannot explain how difficult this process is but we are approaching it from three angles.
I cannot tell you how long before we are finished because we don't know if we are 25% from the start of solution or 25% from the end. If you understand what I mean. We won't know how long the project will take until it's finished.
I can only keep saying we are working on it both here and in Japan. I have just sent out there another two ECU's after the people working on it with us destroyed another five in the last four weeks.
I do not like to give a time schedule but you ask, so I say something rather than being rude. If I say nothing I am accused of adding nothing to the debate.
I am also being accused of inciting fear in the minds of STiV owners. Nothing could be further from the truth and NEVER have we said to anyone that their "engine blowing up was imminent".
We have a detonation data logger which monitors and records detonation as picked up by the engine knock sensor. All we do is test almost every STiV we have on the rolling road and we see detting on every single car we have tested. Not engine exploding detonation but it is there and the engine should not be running constantly on the knock sensor. If you have your car on the dyno at any stage we are happy to record this and show anyone.
Having said that this detonation is being controlled by the knock sensor system. However the difference between your engine working perfectly and failing is now in the hands of one sensor and a very high frequency, no voltage output travelling down a single shielded wire to your ECU, (shielded because the signal is so weak it must be protected from interference) .
For the record our advice is:
1/ Not to use STiV's on the track in very hot weather.
2/ Use octane booster for track use only.
3/ Use 98RON at all times.
4/ Intercooler spray is a good idea on all Imprezas.
5/ Water injection acts as a combustion delaying device and therefore retards the ignition and is a good idea on STiV only.
Regarding failures; the largest non manufacturer warranty company have stopped offering warranty on STiV's because of the engine claims record. That is official. Granted what I do not know is how many claims they have had but I suspect they would not stop offering warranty because of two claims.
There is a very simple reason for the problems which we have encountered. (When I say problem, I mean an engine running permanently on the knock sensor, not engine failure).
The reason is that at 0.8bar boost and from 2500-8000rpm the engine mapping has as much as 40% more advance than (for example) an STi4. This means we have at certain critical mapping points, 28 degrees advance and on STi4's 20 degrees.
Simple as that, nothing clever just very very precise advance mapping for use with 100RON fuel. (Japan uses 100 octane but I am not sure if they use the RON classification so we cannot even be sure the exact spec. of their fuel) No thought is given to export mapping because the STiV is not exported. Remember the amount of these cars presently in the UK amounts about 1 weeks production for Fuji.
A comment made about just "decode what they need to decode and apply some other binary codes to change what may be good to change" does oversimplify things. We can get the information out of the processor but this is in HEX and is scrambled for security reasons. This can easily be done by "competent software 'magic' companies" but has anyone ever met a software expert with 10 years engine mapping experience. Unfortunately both skills need combining to sort this.
Finally the reason I am delaying my trip to Japan to do some more work on the 99 ECU's is that we are having some major discussions with RALLIART and it would make sense to "kill two birds with one stone" if at all possible. However work is continuing out there as we sleep.
Does this "add to the debate"?
I am not seeking to be clever over this but it is not a simple subject and oversimplifying the problem and the debate helps no one.
Until such time as we have firm news on progress of our fix, we will remain out of the debate.
I hope this is of some help and re-assurance.
20 August 1999, 09:29 PM
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Thank you, David Power, for making yourself present and heard. This is what I call a serious, argumentative and useful (good general advice) INTERIM report. Exactly as I thought may happen and let us hope that speculation will take a break until another brand new hearsay invades the board while you are working in silence.
My apologies, but I do know only of one company in this country with over 10 years experience of engine mapping and hex langugae. I am sure you know it well too. They happen to be good friends (personal bias unavoidable) and I can only hope they are good at what they are doing.
Look forward to another posting from you in due course and good luck with your work. Dedicated intellect and stubborn persistence are usually smiling in the end.
My apologies, but I do know only of one company in this country with over 10 years experience of engine mapping and hex langugae. I am sure you know it well too. They happen to be good friends (personal bias unavoidable) and I can only hope they are good at what they are doing.
Look forward to another posting from you in due course and good luck with your work. Dedicated intellect and stubborn persistence are usually smiling in the end.
21 August 1999, 04:50 PM
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I note your reply about the STi5 detonation problem ..I have one as you may know with up to now no problems ,especially as I only use the torque for acceleration..but as the problem was not in the STI4 would it not be possible to use that management chip ???
If note I await the improved version and when you tell me it is ready I will be along.....
If note I await the improved version and when you tell me it is ready I will be along.....
23 August 1999, 12:57 AM
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I only got my Sti V last week and the warranty says nothing regrding using only SUL. I have spoken to a number of well known importers that say they have run their own Sti 5's on UL on the road under normal conditions and they have been fine. I wonder how many other high performance cars when thrashed on a track have blown up? Intergrale's for example have notoriously fragile mechanics.
23 August 1999, 10:52 AM
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Last week I received a letter from my warranty company stating that I should only use SUL on my new STI V.
Which to me says don't use normal UL if you want to stay under warranty! Anyone else received these letters?
Which to me says don't use normal UL if you want to stay under warranty! Anyone else received these letters?
23 August 1999, 11:55 PM
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Couple of points;
I think STi Vs are officially exported from Japan to Australia - Coupe first and 4 door in Oct 99, Cyprus and Hong Kong as well?
I'm not sure about Cy and HK but there have been reported problems in Aus with the coupe suffering engine damage. I think Aus fuel is poorer quality than uk - 93/94 RON?
It's interesting that even with these STi V coupe probs that Subaru are going to import the 4 door cars. Does this suggest that they have modified the 4 door cars in some way? Or maybe even that they will be getting STi VIs which are in some way different in the map area?
I think the MY00 car is launched at the Tokyo motor show in Oct.
For some explanation of the technical points David and others describe have a look at;
I think STi Vs are officially exported from Japan to Australia - Coupe first and 4 door in Oct 99, Cyprus and Hong Kong as well?
I'm not sure about Cy and HK but there have been reported problems in Aus with the coupe suffering engine damage. I think Aus fuel is poorer quality than uk - 93/94 RON?
It's interesting that even with these STi V coupe probs that Subaru are going to import the 4 door cars. Does this suggest that they have modified the 4 door cars in some way? Or maybe even that they will be getting STi VIs which are in some way different in the map area?
I think the MY00 car is launched at the Tokyo motor show in Oct.
For some explanation of the technical points David and others describe have a look at;