Ru$$Rip

The point here is that if you ordered a Tek3 not to simply be content with a file upload. A 'proper' Tek3 needs mapping individually to your car and to your requirements - this should be done on the road and would normally take at least an hour. No two cars are the same

[Edited by Ru$$Rip - 8/7/2003 10:38:28 PM]

-=Buzz=-

I'm 99% up for the group buy on this, but a friend of mine asked me a few questions that got me thinking.

Ive got a few sections of stainless Scorpion exhaust (centre and back box) and that's it for the mods. If I get the TEK3 re-map done is it advisable to look at changing anything else?

Are the standard intercoolers and fuel pumps etc upto the job of the increased output?

I ask purely from a position of almost total ignorance

I believe that PPP is, in the main, exhaust sections, ECU and also intercooler hoses. Are the larger hoses needed then?

Please ensure your replies are in one or less syllables

Gidney&Knowlesy

I'm 99% up for the group buy on this, but a friend of mine asked me a few questions that got me thinking.

Go For It

Ive got a few sections of stainless Scorpion exhaust (centre and back box) and that's it for the mods. If I get the TEK3 re-map done is it advisable to look at changing anything else?

You can always have a remap at a later stage, though personally I would go for the downpipe change

Are the standard intercoolers and fuel pumps etc upto the job of the increased output?

Yes until you significantly mod, ie bigger injectors or turbo

I ask purely from a position of almost total ignorance

Don't worry about it.....live and learn

I believe that PPP is, in the main, exhaust sections, ECU and also intercooler hoses. Are the larger hoses needed then?

No, they look pretty and at least you know something has been done for the £1800 spent...

Please ensure your replies are in one or less syllables

OK

-=Buzz=-

thank you kind sir

ScoobySnack

Samco pipes are changed cos there was a few that split on early classic models when they were PPP'd

Better safe than sorry for £50..

J

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

Paul, i would probably change fuel pump, downpipe and boost hoses, before the remap, then you can take advantage of the remap, with a little added safety.

Steven

ZIPPY

I would adise anybody thinking of doing the Tek 3 on MY01 models onwards to try a mapped car first.

The reson behind me saying this is that 2 friends drove down to Essex for their fully de-catted cars to be reprogrammed using Ecutek (3) and i have since driven both cars and i'm not impressed what so ever.
They do feel quicker at 100 MPH and above but not below this figure to the extent my fully de-catted MY01 keeps up with them without any problems at all.
Now the mapper in question has said he will come up to Liverpool to have a look why the cars are so poor but that was a week ago and i still havent heard anything.
One car showed 277 BHP on delta dash and the other 281 BHP which based on the first cars figures is way down on the advertised 285 BHP minimum.
The cars in question have all the nessacery bits that they require to be changed (Exhaust, Air Filters, load onto the actuator,Samco hoses)but still produced much lower than anticipated figures.

The overall driving of the cars is slightly better but nowhere near what the tuners have been saying and until proven otherwise i wont be buying it.

I will report back if the 2 cars in question get re-mapped for a second time and if there is any significant improvement.

Zippy

Jza

Blimey ZIPPY.... that sucks!

Jza

john banks

I've not done any WRXs, so I can only offer experience with the 99/00 - the WRX does have a slightly bigger TD04 apparently, plus larger ports and a slightly larger intercooler. A decat 00 gets about 220-225 at out local dyno and a Tek 3 should be about 260-265. Subtantially more is big turbo territory, and many of them are still below 300 BHP. Road Dyno figures work out similar if you use sensible parameters.

Pete Croney

Zippy

First things first, I wouldn't describe 277 and 281 as "way down" on 285bhp. One car is 2.8% down and the other is 1.4% down. Margins of error from things such as tyre pressures, temperature and humidity will cause errors bigger than this. Even the additional scrub from Prodrive geometry would cause variations of this scale.

The figures are lower, yes, but have a look through the forums, everyone with a new age car is saying that the recent warm weather is killing the cars performance. In April or October the cars will be at the quoted figures and through the winter they will exceed them. There isn't enough injector duty to have them running over 285bhp on a hot summer day... and have a good safety margin. When we decided which figures to quote for this work, it was based on the results of a lot of cars. The figures we quote have been achieved or comfortably exceeded every time we have tested the cars, but we have not tested in the hot weather of the past month.

In fact, to put it into perspective, 1 degree of ignition advance would add around 4% to those figures and the ECU has a range of 10 degrees that it can use, when happy with the air temp/density and fuel quality.

Your own car has a full decat, so in this weather is probably running around 255bhp. Through the lower gears, I would expect the difference between yours and the mapped cars to be small as the load on the turbos is light. As you saw, over 100mph, the difference becomes obvious. Reducing the 0-100 time by 1 second takes quite a lot of power. To reduce it by 2 seconds takes 4 times the increase... and so on. You will not be much quicker than a 241bhp PPP 01, but the mapped cars will be.

You say that driveability is improved but not by as much as was said. Your car will have 0.9 bar by 2800rpm. The two mapped cars will have 1.25 bar by this point and lots more torque. They will also spool up more quickly. Driveability is very difficult to quantify; there is no such things as a 16% improvement in driveability, but I'll bet they are smoother, more linear and more throttle adjustable.

Increases in power are something that we all get used to very quickly and a 10bhp improvement is almost impossible to detect. A 10 bhp fall in power is easily detectable.

We have said that we will come up to Liverpool and see if any more is safely available, not because I think the work is defective, but because we will always go out of our way to ensure that you are happy with what you have bought. When we log the car with a fully learnt map table, we will see if any areas can take more than they could take on the day, but we will not endanger engines to satisfy a customer's expectations.

Mapping is a field that I stayed out of for 6 years. There were various reasons for this, but the non technical reason was that some customers will always have expectations that cannot be safely achieved. We've mapped almost 60 WRX's in the past 6 months and have pushed the development of the EcuTek software to include many new features that improve the quality of our work. I am happy that we are giving a first class service and are providing customers with very fast cars that are also reliable.

hades

Admittedly mine is a PE tek2 on a MY02 WRX rather than a scoobysport tek3, but I back what Pete is saying. My car immediately after mapping (ie before the ECU had fully learned) gave 284bhp/272lbft on the rollers, and that's with a sports cat in the downpipe. The PE map also runs a little less boost than the scoobysport (1.18 vs 1.25 I think), so should give a little less power. I get over 260lbft by 2800rpm, and over 280bhp the whole way from 5800-6800rpm. On the road, the car picks up very hard from 2500rpm up to 7000. The difference between before and after mapping was impressive. However, the wider spread of power etc does mean that the car pulls smoothly rather than "kicks" when the boost cuts in.

elgordano

I've got a Scoobysport map on an MY01 and 285bhp on the rollers, as advertised !! Smoother, faster.......more fun. Money well spent.

Gordo

LoFi

I'm fully with Pete on this one. My Scoobysport remap is as I was told it would be. On the rollers it did 282bhp and 272lb/ft. On the boost far earlier, after running a full decat I'd say the remap was significantly better.

LoFi

Danny B

I got a Tek3 (on my MY00) from Pete last month and it keeps getting faster & faster now that the weather is gradually cooling down.
100% recommend a re-map

-=Buzz=-

Thanks for all the info chaps

Bad news for me is that looming tax bill has cropped up and I have had to pull out of this particular purchase. But I WILL be back, my MY96 was re-mapped and it was excellent - made my WRX feel like a micra

WRX Wannabe

Good to read the above as mine is booked in to be done on Friday

David_Wallis

YHM

ZIPPY

Pete you have stated some good points but how come a fully de-catted car (MY01) ran 262 BHP on the rollers and then after TeK 3 only produced 277 BHP with the same outside temperatures,i agree that after 100 MPH the mapped car was pulling away with ease but as most people cannot push these speeds legally and easily i cannot see the justification in the cost for no normal driving gains.

I dont believe you should just thrash the pants off any car and expect amazing results and that the torque should be tested at lower speeds in higher gears and again there wasnt any difference in delivery from a de-cat to the re-map.

I'm not saying DONT get a TEK 3 but to just try it before you buy.
The dissapointing thing with all this was that the posts on Scoobynet with regard to TEK 3 were very encouraging in the performance gains quoted but upon driving a mapped car the results and claims dont seem justified.

I have now had confirmation the mapper is coming to look at the 2 cars in question and i will post my thoughts once this has been completed.

Zippy

RB5SCOTT

I got 299bhp with 292lb/ft at Power engineering on a Pat mapped tek 3

Once the gearbox is back and running i will be looking at 380+bhp on a tek3 but that is with the help from a bigger turbo and FMIC

Pete Croney

Zippy

If you put the two cars side by side at 3000rpm in 5th and then floored them, at the same time, you would see quite a difference. Power is only a mathematic product of torque and revs and we have always tried to make the biggest improvements to the mid range. If you have the print outs for both cars, the comparison of the mid range figures should show this.

No two cars will ever be the same and it may be that your friend's one is one of those cars that will always be slightly down on similar cars. But we'll see if we can safely coax a bit more from it.

whiteyisback

just my tuppence worth but.....I've got a my03 wrx and went for a full decat zorst (up/down pipe, centre and rear box), ITG Panel filter and then a Pat EcuTek 3 remap and **** me what a difference!....the car pulls much earlier and harder all the way through the rev range. It genuinely feels like a new engine has been dropped in. To be honest when i drove away from the garage after having the work done i was at first a little disappointed (think my expectations had run and run), however a further 2k miles on and I can honestly say that it's worth every penny as the car feels soo much more torquey low down. Xtreme did all my work brilliantly but from what I know Scoobysport are a reputable firm too. BTW - Pat does Ecutek mapping for both SS and Xtreme.

Ru$$Rip

I have also driven the 2 cars of concern. They dont feel as good as a piggyback PPP. As an experiment I stuck a dawes on my standard car (apart from BB) and I was all over them to 105mph. BEFORE we go into the dawes = blow engine up myth all I want to say is that I was expecting a PPP surge from a Tek 3. So far noone can seem to map a WRX to 'feel' like a PPP. What I want is a shove in the back 1.25 bar kick. It cant be difficult - a dawes does this , < MY00's all do this. What is the problem?

Yes there are safety margins/tolerances and driveability factors to take into consideration. The point is that so far you can replicate a £600+ tek3 bill with a 50 quid dawes device. I would like the feel of an MBC but for the ECU to back off at 6k revs and not for the car to full boost on half throttle. SO far I have not witnessed this. If a Tek3 is a custom map then why could this not be created?



[Edited by Ru$$Rip - 8/18/2003 6:59:34 PM]

john banks

Loosen the actuator and enlarge the bleed hole on your Dawes Russ. This may help with what you need.

Ru$$Rip

John the bleed hole is already 1.5mm - what effect will loosening the actuator have?

john banks

It should not make excessive boost on part throttle then (full boost on half throttle is the way a lot map them as long as it isn't lean and doesn't surge), suggest don't go larger or you end up with a bleed valve. Loosening the actuator will allow the boost to taper more at high RPM. Better still, put it on a dyno or an accelerometer such as AP22 or Delta Dash and try a few combinations and see which gives you most power.

[Edited by john banks - 7/25/2003 7:05:57 PM]

Nathan L

I cannot agree with the comments on this post from some people.

When I went from PPP and Decat to TEK 3 I noticed a huge difference in performance low down. The extra feeling in the seat of my pants was incredible.

If people going from just Decat to TEK3 haven't noticed a big difference in the way the car "feels" then something is not right.

It maybe hot at the moment but my car is still absolutely flying. My car now would have slaughtered my old PPP + Decat setup in every gear, without doubt.

Pete you refer to putting a TEK3 car and a Decat car next to each other in 5th at 3000rpm. Why ? Why not put them side by side from first gear ? I've been in your car and it's devestatingly quick low down, as is mine. These cars described are not and I know the full circumstances behind it. They are no quicker low down than just decat. Can you honestly say your car is no quicker low down than just a decat car? From what I remember your car would kill a decat car in a few seconds.

All the best

Nathan..

Pete Croney

Nathan

I suggested doing this in 5th as it would show the extra torque that was there. When doing it in 1st or 2nd everything is over in no more than a couple of seconds and the difference can appear less marked.

My own car runs virtually the same map. The only difference with my map is that I hold onto the boost for a bit longer and consequently have a bit less spare injector duty at the top end.

I agree with you 100% about the difference between a PPP and custom map. Even a PPP with full decat, running 275+bhp feels nothing like a custom map, although peak power is not that much different.

Russ, follow John's advise. If you read the US BBS, there are plenty of people who have lost their engines from enthusiastic use of Dawes devices. I would get hold of Delta Dash or a SECS unit, so that you can monitor EGT.

[Edited by Pete Croney - 7/26/2003 11:29:30 AM]

Ru$$Rip

That sums it up nicely Nathan.

Nathan L

Cheers

Is there any news on these cars yet ?

Nathan..

Ru$$Rip

There should be some news after Monday. This is when the mapper is coming up to Liverpool. On Saturday we are running a head-to-head with one of these mapped cars against an MY03 WRX with PPP. The results should be v.interesting. Watch this space..........