100RON Map - Is it all a Myth.....
10 October 2002, 08:42 AM
#1
Having extracted the Map data out of various WRX and UK Spec Pre'97 Subaru's I have found no real evidence to suggest that UK cars are mapped for 95-97RON and WRX 100RON.
Standard Pre97, UK Maps are very similar to Pre95 WRX Maps.
UK Prodrive Maps are very similar to WRX95 Maps (which would explain why the Prodrive Upgrade in the UK wasn't available until 96).
The Fuel and Ignition Maps are so similar the 100RON talk doesn't really stack up.
I know Pre97 Prodrive cars/owners were told to use 98RON, so maybe it is actually mapped for 100RON and 98RON was all they could suggest.
Or maybe they are all mapped to run 95-100RON, but will perform better if higher RON is used.
Standard Pre97, UK Maps are very similar to Pre95 WRX Maps.
UK Prodrive Maps are very similar to WRX95 Maps (which would explain why the Prodrive Upgrade in the UK wasn't available until 96).
The Fuel and Ignition Maps are so similar the 100RON talk doesn't really stack up.
I know Pre97 Prodrive cars/owners were told to use 98RON, so maybe it is actually mapped for 100RON and 98RON was all they could suggest.
Or maybe they are all mapped to run 95-100RON, but will perform better if higher RON is used.
10 October 2002, 09:56 AM
#2
I'd be interested to know this too.
If im honest when i first got my early WRX (nearly 3 years ago) i initially ran it on Unleaded, then switched to super, then super with OB. I never really noticed that much difference in power, it just seems smoother (less jearky low down and when cold). I've looked at the UK and WRX maps too and are too similar to notice any real differenve. Think i got the excel files off your site Scoot..... do you have a copy of the Prodrive map you could e-mail me?
Cheers,
Tony.
If im honest when i first got my early WRX (nearly 3 years ago) i initially ran it on Unleaded, then switched to super, then super with OB. I never really noticed that much difference in power, it just seems smoother (less jearky low down and when cold). I've looked at the UK and WRX maps too and are too similar to notice any real differenve. Think i got the excel files off your site Scoot..... do you have a copy of the Prodrive map you could e-mail me?
Cheers,
Tony.
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10 October 2002, 05:45 PM
#9
Scooby Regular
I'd be really interested to know how the WRX MY94 5-door map (TD04, 220PS) compares to the WRX 4-door map (TD05, 240PS)
There are several of us with 5-door versions. I'm sure someone will volenteer to have their maps extracted.
I would offer but am a bit tied up with family commitments
PS Could you email me the site where the maps (or xls's) are
Thanks
Stephen
Later addition - It is only the early Jap WRX 5-door that has the smallet TD04 turbo. Early UK 5-doors have the same large turbo (TD05) as the 4-door
But the early WRX's (4 and 5 door) have higher 8.5:1 compression ratios compared to 8.0:1 for the early UK models
[Edited by Stephen Cole - 10/11/2002 5:01:58 PM]
There are several of us with 5-door versions. I'm sure someone will volenteer to have their maps extracted.
I would offer but am a bit tied up with family commitments
PS Could you email me the site where the maps (or xls's) are
Thanks
Stephen
Later addition - It is only the early Jap WRX 5-door that has the smallet TD04 turbo. Early UK 5-doors have the same large turbo (TD05) as the 4-door
But the early WRX's (4 and 5 door) have higher 8.5:1 compression ratios compared to 8.0:1 for the early UK models
[Edited by Stephen Cole - 10/11/2002 5:01:58 PM]
10 October 2002, 11:14 PM
#10
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Scott
It would not surprise me one bit !! There is so much crap banded around re Jap imports it's unreal.
If I'd believed everything I've been told about my car, I would have spent twice as much money and ended up with half as much power !
Andy
It would not surprise me one bit !! There is so much crap banded around re Jap imports it's unreal.
If I'd believed everything I've been told about my car, I would have spent twice as much money and ended up with half as much power !
Andy
11 October 2002, 07:48 AM
#11
Don't have a Wagon Map yet, but would be happy to extract one if anyone can get an ECU to me or lives local.
Markus has shown an interest, so maybe his Wagon will tell us what we want to know. He is on Hols at the moment, but I hope to tie up with him once he gets back.
Markus has shown an interest, so maybe his Wagon will tell us what we want to know. He is on Hols at the moment, but I hope to tie up with him once he gets back.
11 October 2002, 08:23 AM
#12
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Just a thought guys. A guy I know who is from Japan and now living over here says that fuel in Japan is not 100RON. I think he said it is usually 98 but that's the bit I can't remember for sure but he deffinately said it was lower than 100.
I asked him why everybody over here says that Japan has 100RON fuel and he has no idea.
I've posted before trying to ignite a discussion about this conundrum but nobody showed any interest in it....
Matt
I asked him why everybody over here says that Japan has 100RON fuel and he has no idea.
I've posted before trying to ignite a discussion about this conundrum but nobody showed any interest in it....
Matt
11 October 2002, 08:27 AM
#13
Scooby Regular
dont know about the map issue but from experience, a colleague of mine does a roaring trade in rebuilding import spec engines that have been run on 95ron fuel - these all show signs of serious det. probs. but seemed to be running normally until they stopped.
make of that what you will (as an aside jap petrol is normally quoted at about 100ron so it would make sense for the cars to be "mapped" to suit!?!)
make of that what you will (as an aside jap petrol is normally quoted at about 100ron so it would make sense for the cars to be "mapped" to suit!?!)
11 October 2002, 08:35 AM
#14
I would expect Jap cars to be running at least a couple of degree's more advance that UK, but the maps do not show this and in some cases are the same.
OK if they run them on 95 then that is an issue. I don't even run my UK on 95.
Some people just don't like putting there hand in their pocket when filling up and prefer to use the 5p a litre cheaper option. If they don't kill it the poor next owner may well have to pay for their incompetence.
OK if they run them on 95 then that is an issue. I don't even run my UK on 95.
Some people just don't like putting there hand in their pocket when filling up and prefer to use the 5p a litre cheaper option. If they don't kill it the poor next owner may well have to pay for their incompetence.
11 October 2002, 08:36 AM
#15
But from what Scott is saying they aren't 'mapped to suit'. Plus if you look at roling road results i'd say that a decated/induction kitted early UK and early WRX cars prodruce very similar results if run on the same type of fuel. I got 250bhp recently at Well Lane and similar modded UK cars have also got around that figure.
Sti's could be a very different story tho
.
Tony.
Sti's could be a very different story tho
.Tony.
11 October 2002, 09:03 AM
#19
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Location: Leeds - It was 562.4bhp@28psi on Optimax, How much closer to 600 with race fuel and a bigger turbo?
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right...
Am I missing something here.. early cars have a td05 be it 4 or 5 door?? Early five doors run a different compression ratio.. Mark or pat should be able to comment (will email a link)
I have a 5 door but its uk.. so will plug my ecu in and download the map.
David
I'd be really interested to know how the WRX MY94 5-door map (TD04) compares to the WRX 4-door map (TD05)
There are several of us with 5-door versions. I'm sure someone will volenteer to have their maps extracted.
David
11 October 2002, 09:09 AM
#20
Scooby Regular
Not sure if it relevant, but I've got a 5 door STI 1, which clearly has a different ECU to standard cars. I've got no idea about how to download the map, but I will be swapping the ECU for an Apexi unit shortly, so if somebody wants to have a look, your welcome.
11 October 2002, 10:38 AM
#24
All the early cars run 380cc injectors, fact.
I spoke to merv about this, and he concluded that the injectors must be different in the 95-96 cars because of differences in the ECU data. However, I have found that the difference in the fuelling constant is offset by the same amount by a similar difference in the MAF calibration scale.
I had similar doubts till I looked further into the ECU info.
After putting back the normal ignition map into the ecu, seeing det on 97 SUL (sains, I had a 4p voucher) so probably a good start is to wipe 2degrees off from 3k-5.5k. Optimax is supposed to be 98.6 RON which is quite a bit more than 97. Also the prodrive cars and 95wrx would have come with no centre cat, which I still have.
Paul
Paul
I spoke to merv about this, and he concluded that the injectors must be different in the 95-96 cars because of differences in the ECU data. However, I have found that the difference in the fuelling constant is offset by the same amount by a similar difference in the MAF calibration scale.
I had similar doubts till I looked further into the ECU info.
After putting back the normal ignition map into the ecu, seeing det on 97 SUL (sains, I had a 4p voucher) so probably a good start is to wipe 2degrees off from 3k-5.5k. Optimax is supposed to be 98.6 RON which is quite a bit more than 97. Also the prodrive cars and 95wrx would have come with no centre cat, which I still have.
Paul
Paul
11 October 2002, 10:52 AM
#25
Pre96 Prodrive MAP specifies same injector value as WRX Map. Pre96 Standard UK map doesn't (Prodrive map is tweaked 95WRX Map).
Pre96 Prodrive cars were not decatted, this mod only came into effect on 99/00 Impreza's along with the Intercooler hose modification.
Pre96 Prodrive cars were not decatted, this mod only came into effect on 99/00 Impreza's along with the Intercooler hose modification.
11 October 2002, 11:01 AM
#26
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How does the knock control compare from ECU to ECU ?
I know that the P1 ecu, is able to retard the ignition far more than the STi5. Has anyone checked to see if the UK ECU's whilst running a similar ignition map to the Jap ECU's, aren't able to do the same ?
I know that Bob R recently re-fitted the stock V5 ecu for some testing, and found it was detting all over the place !!!!
Mark.
I know that the P1 ecu, is able to retard the ignition far more than the STi5. Has anyone checked to see if the UK ECU's whilst running a similar ignition map to the Jap ECU's, aren't able to do the same ?
I know that Bob R recently re-fitted the stock V5 ecu for some testing, and found it was detting all over the place !!!!
Mark.
11 October 2002, 11:04 AM
#27
So im ok then the prodrive fuel map is fine for my car..... no worries 
. Think im still gonna run the car with OB and Esso SUL, or maybe just try it on Optimax alone and keep an eye on the knocklink?
Tony.
(only a couple of days from gettin the remap )
. Think im still gonna run the car with OB and Esso SUL, or maybe just try it on Optimax alone and keep an eye on the knocklink?Tony.
(only a couple of days from gettin the remap
)
11 October 2002, 11:08 AM
#28
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David,
If you're looking for an early Jap WRX wagon to pull the map from feel free to use mine. Can bring it over if you want.
I'm wondering myself why the wagon is down on power from the saloon. If its just the compression ratio then the wagon should theoretically be safer to run at slightly higher boost? Correct me if i'm wrong.
From what i read on another site a while ago the difference between the saloon and the wagon on early WRX's was just in the map. The wagon being fueled for peak torque slightly lower in the rev range but as a consequence it losses 20bhp. From the way my car (standard at the mo) behaves, i'd say that sounds pretty much right... my car is pulls reasonably well in the middle of the rev range but the top end is a waste of space.
cheers,
Marty
If you're looking for an early Jap WRX wagon to pull the map from feel free to use mine. Can bring it over if you want.
I'm wondering myself why the wagon is down on power from the saloon. If its just the compression ratio then the wagon should theoretically be safer to run at slightly higher boost? Correct me if i'm wrong.
From what i read on another site a while ago the difference between the saloon and the wagon on early WRX's was just in the map. The wagon being fueled for peak torque slightly lower in the rev range but as a consequence it losses 20bhp. From the way my car (standard at the mo) behaves, i'd say that sounds pretty much right... my car is pulls reasonably well in the middle of the rev range but the top end is a waste of space.
cheers,
Marty
11 October 2002, 11:10 AM
#29
scott,
the injector value must be considered in conjunction with the MAF calibration values.
If you compare the two styles of ECU code, look at the MAF calibration scale about half way (big endian 16bit words, so read second byte first), and work out MAF*fuelling constant. You will find they are within a few percent between the 2 ecu codes, but then there are differences in the fuel maps too.
Mark,
The knock correction on the pre97 ecu's seems quite poor, using the legacy ecu, it seemed to go into safe mode for a pastime, using the 95wrx style code, it seems to take too long to retard the ignition. There's no positive knock correction, so the ignition map is quite an pain to sort out. I also can't seem to get the knock sensor to register even when I hit the damn thing with a drift and hammer. That said, a while ago, over the course of about 3 days of intermittent running, the ignition was retarded and the slight det dissapeared.
Paul
the injector value must be considered in conjunction with the MAF calibration values.
If you compare the two styles of ECU code, look at the MAF calibration scale about half way (big endian 16bit words, so read second byte first), and work out MAF*fuelling constant. You will find they are within a few percent between the 2 ecu codes, but then there are differences in the fuel maps too.
Mark,
The knock correction on the pre97 ecu's seems quite poor, using the legacy ecu, it seemed to go into safe mode for a pastime, using the 95wrx style code, it seems to take too long to retard the ignition. There's no positive knock correction, so the ignition map is quite an pain to sort out. I also can't seem to get the knock sensor to register even when I hit the damn thing with a drift and hammer. That said, a while ago, over the course of about 3 days of intermittent running, the ignition was retarded and the slight det dissapeared.
Paul