JVSImpreza

I am wanting safer, better fueling for my Scoob Track car.
I am considering a mix ofthe following.....
Optimax
AV-GAS
Tolulene

has anyone had any experience with the above in Scoobs? I know it works in Race Bikes and other race cars....

Better fulelling = More power without more engines

swan

Everything you ever wanted to know.

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/showthread.php?s=72513eaabfb4046b06e874047ff9caec& threadid=2480

JVSImpreza

That link aint workin m8!

swan

Whoops, forums were rearranged on the site, new url:
http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/sh...ghlight=octane

I wouldn't use avgas though - octane varies wilding per batch and is a slower burning fuel.

z_chromozone

Toluene is a good octane booster, as is zylene and a few other aromatic solvents. (These are less carcinogenic than benzene.)
Other chemicals are available that do the same thing, but tend to be more expensive. I would not try and order chemicals like this from a chemicals supplier like Aldrich, or Lancaster, because you will pay for quality you do not need. Standard paint thinners is the stuff you want (zylene, toluene) mixed, this comes in a huge drum and does not cost too much. Contact you friendly body shop, etc and ask them for a drum. make sure that you don't get the reclaimed stuff though, you don't want paint polymers and stuff in there. (Not unless you want plastic lined cylinders).

This will be much cheaper. I will look up some mixtures for ya, if I can.

Z.

JVSImpreza

Thanks Z. Some mix ratios will be real nice.

submannz

Toluene as mentioned previously is the best. What I do is add another injector and spray a mix of alcohol and distilled water into the inlet manifold, or the other option is to inject just water or extra fuel at preset boost levels.

z_chromozone

According to BP toluene will give a 1 point octane boost for every 5% added to the mix. I should think xylene would be similar, or slightly higher (similar chemical structure). I cannot find the website which listed the various bits of info, but when I do I will post. Also, note that adding toluene will increase the carbon output in the exhaust, it is probably best not to add to much unless you have removed the cat. I would not recommend trying to pass an emissions test running 15% toluene either.

Z.

JVSImpreza

Its going in a track car.

Cat.... Whats that

Emissions test.....?

15% a good ratio you reckon Z?

z_chromozone

It depends how much octane you want, some of the 1/4 mile boys may know what is best for a Scoob. Take a look at this site, it is a bit heavy but gives good info on the subject.

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part2/preamble.html

Interestingly 'dicyclopentadiene', which has the highest octane boosting potential (see table on website) is only £13.80 per 500g from Aldich Chemicals. Thats the price for a purified chemical reagent. The same thing a bit more crude and bought in bulk may be much cheaper, and will boost about twice as much as toluene. I will have a go at finding a supplier, all of the catalogs are missing at the moment.

Z (a chemist)

z_chromozone

Just a thought, 15% toluene would give you a RON of 100. You could run a jap inport on that and use the original ECU map.

Could be fun if you do an ECU reset and use it as a fuel for a track day. Jap cars run about 280bhp on 100 RON, I think.

Does anyone know if you could swap a Jap ECU into a UK car for this reason. You could have one ECU for track and one for the road.=)

Pavlo

.

[Edited by Pavlo - 9/17/2002 6:51:25 PM]

Prodrive Legacy

If you buy millers CVL octane booster, avalible from lots of motor factors and add this to optimax it takes the octane to 101 without any wories! Its what i use in my rally car and it does the biz...especially the 3ft flames out the back.

Jaay

Paul, have you used Toluene yourself ? Im interested but a bit nervous about it, im more into getting a fuel/mix that reduces the possability of Det (engine death) more than upping the power. And which is better the Toluene mixed with zylene or Toluene straight?

Ta

adair69

Difficult to get hold of Toluene because of the new laws on storage. Of course your not supposed to use it on the road either, however I do know that in a 60 ltr tank if you mix (neat) Toluene, with about 100ml of Iso propyl to a 7% mix (about 4.2l). You will get about 100RON, and the alcohol serves to smooth out the power. I tried this from following the thread on GTR, the guy on there has ran his car for a long time on this mix, but i only tried it about 3 times. I think my ECU had just started to get wise to it when I couldn't get hold of any more tol'. If anybody knows where I can get a supply ie/ 25-75l quantities I would be very grateful. You would not believe the difference in the power (How a Scooby was designed to go!!!). If anybody has tried the non-neat variety of Tol' I would like to hear about your results.

[Edited by adair69 - 9/18/2002 8:41:39 AM]

z_chromozone

A mixture of Toluene / xylene is available as standard paint thinners. Don't worry about the xylene it is almost the same as toluene, but will give you bigger octane boost. You can pick up 25, 50 L drums at your local spray paint supplier. It is far cheaper than buying chemical grade stuff from Aldrich, or BDH. Make sure that you don't get the reclaim stuff, 'cos it has plastics left in it (amoung other crap.

Z.

As I said on the other thread 15% of this will give you 100 RON, (5% per octane point).

Pavlo

Don't use boosters anymore.

For racing, years ago, I tried Silkolene pro-boost, which seemed to work, and I remember another product before that, white tin can with orange label I think, that's all I remember.

Celulose thinners as mentioned above should be good. The other alterantive is about 5-10% Acetone (what nail varnish remover is made with) which is cheap, easy and safe.

Paul

z_chromozone

One thing to watch with acetone is that the boiling point (ca. 40C, from memory) is very low, on a hot day the stuff will evaporate fast. Toluene and Xylene are around 100C, much less volatile).

The down side with toluene is that is produces a bit more smoke when it burns, so don't fill your tank before an MOT.

I am not aware of acetone being used in commercial fules, do you have the RON / MON numbers Paul.

dingy

15% of toluene gives much more than 100 RON BTW

If added 12% to SUL gives approx 107.

NF + SUL is the ultimate Fuel...

recent test's on a race pinto.

running 12.65:1 CR @ 40 degrees advance, runing 12mls of NF per litre no det.........truly awesome..

Millers would be lucky top take Optmiax to 100 never mind 101 btw.





[Edited by dingy - 9/18/2002 11:33:49 AM]

z_chromozone

According to BP, taken from the website below. I am inclined to believe them. 15% will indeed give you 100 RON when mixed with SU.


http://www.bp.com.au/products/fuelnews/faq.asp

2. How can I boost my octane?

The octane of a fuel can be boosted by adding proportions of a higher octane fuel. Also available is toluene, which can be used as an octane booster in both unleaded and leaded fuels. Generally each 5% addition of toluene will increase the fuel's octane rating by one number. It is not recommended to add more than 30% of toluene to the fuel. Because of the dangers with incorrect mixing, individual motorist are advised against mixing additives with fuels without first consulting their car engine manual or their fuel supplier.

dingy

Believe them then.

Toluene is 114RON

10% of that and 90% of SUL @ 97....

Say 10gallon fuel tank.

so [(9x97)+(1x114)] / 10

[873+114] / 10 = 98.7

Well i think i got my maths wrong





[Edited by dingy - 9/18/2002 12:20:53 PM]

z_chromozone

No Problem. =)

I snipped this from another website.

As a Formula 1 racing fan of many years, I recalled that toluene was used extensively in the turbo era in the 1980s by all the Formula 1 teams. The 1.5 liter turbocharged engines ran as much as 5 bars of boost (73 psi) in qualifying and 4 bars (59 psi) in the actual race. Power output exceeded 1500bhp, which translates into 1000bhp/liter, an astronomical figure.

A motorsports journalist, Ian Bamsey, was able to obtain Honda's cooperation for his book "McLaren Honda Turbo, a Technical Appraisal". The book documents the key role that the toluene fuel played in allowing these tiny engines to run so much turbo boost without detonation. The term "rocket fuel" originated from the Formula 1 fraternity as an affectionate nickname to describe its devastating potency.

So there you have it, run your Scooby at 5 bar boost with 85% toluene and you should be good for a couple of thousand bhp......

For about 5 min, then run for cover.

Pavlo

the thing with octane boosters is this.

You can use an "additive" that changes the way the petrol burns, lead (or lead ibdium) being the prime example, manganese and other things being used in unleaded these days I believe.

Or you can dilute petrol with another substance to make a solution, where the you end up with the average RON, eg Tuolene which is 118 RON I think.

I don't know how Acetone works chemically, I just know it works, and if you put more than about 10% in it's effectiveness is reduced, and can actually make things worse.

paul

z_chromozone

I have never come across people using acetone before, but if acetone works it will work for the same reason toluene works (because it has a higher octane than the base petrol).

These are a few thoughts on the subject.

What would worry me with a turbo car is that acetone has such a low boiling point it would turn to gas before entering the combustion chamber, due to the high heat created by the compression. This would screw up the mix (No problem with a non-turbo). Does it work with a turbo, or did you use it in a non-turbo motor.


I would advise anyone that runs a road car an has a cat fitted not to use alkyl-metal products with lead in them. Even if you run a car without the cat and replace it for the MOT, lead only needs to be present in the smallest traces to poison a cat. Once a car has been filled with lead it can be very difficult to get rid of.

Z.

Pavlo

Z,
on the contrary, you want the fuel to evapourate before it reaches the cylinder, you want to ignite fuel vapour and air, not air and liquid fuel.

You will get more even burn, lower emissions, and more importantly you will reduce the inlet charge temps by fully utilising the latent heat of evapouration, and that means more power.

This is why cars have inlet manifold heating or exhaust gas recirculation for the winter, you don't want fuel condensing on the walls of the inlet manifold or ports.

I think the main reason to avoid too much Acetone is it has a reduced calorific value, but doesn't have equal and opposite effect due to different Stoich AFR (like methanol for instance).

Paul

z_chromozone

In a way I knew that, unvaporised fule can be a problem in engines running high bp fuels. (Making them a bugger to start).

Thanks for pointing that out, I am going to have another look at acetone. If I find out anything of interest I will post it (some people like the science stuff, well I do).

Z.

adair69

Pavlo & Z

Please keep this up guys, its great to see some real thinking going on. You never know if we keep this up Mycroft may join us from GTR!!!

Seriously, nice to see Scoobynet doing what its supposed to....

Keep it up guys

p.s. Let me know your findings on acetone, I may be able to convert theory to practice on a vehicle I can get hold of.

[Edited by adair69 - 9/18/2002 5:40:43 PM]

scoobdoo

I have read bits on this topic b4, and I seem to remember someone mentioning that Toluene eats away at rubber pipes and hoses? Would this cause a problem to the fuel supply lines?

z_chromozone

No more of a problem than some of the other components in petrol, some countries use up to 50% aromatic hydrocarbons in their fuels anyway. Chances are the Jap 100 RON fuel is pretty much the same as ours, but with extra aromatics (toluene / xylene etc). Manufactures are reluctant to give you the exact components in a blend.

On a different subject, Pav's acetone appears to have similar octane rating to methanol (I can't find the exact number). Acetone is used in some race fuels to boost octane upto 10% (as suggested) and assist in cold starting. In fact because of the low boiling point, acetone boils so fast that the rapidly expanding vapour shatters droplets of higher boiling point fules surrounding it. It may find uses as a additive for modern direct injection engines, where the fule only has a very short time to vaporise before combustion.

Pavlo

god help us should "Mycroft" join in. We'll be up to our necks in free radicals, and long words