TONKA MAN

I own a 1996 Sti RA went to watch a night rally in Darbyshire last night, got talking to some lads who seemed to know all about these ECU's and mapping them.

They were running car 4 in a Subaru Impreza not sure who they were but I enjoyed the conversation, I have given it some serious thought today and I want one on my car. Has anybody run any of these ECU's and which do you think is the best???

All help appreciated and if you know who car 4 was could you let me know as I am curious as to what they finished and would like to pick their brains again.

Many thanks,

Tonka.

SCOOBERATORS

Hello tonka man i had a link ecu on my uk99 turbo it wasn`t cheap but worked wonders.Had it running over 300 bhp with 280 torque.
The good thing about the link and motec is that with each mod you had on the car can be re-mapped.(not sure about the gems)

Gez

Hiya Tonka Man,
Welcome to scoobynet! Ive been researching into mappable ecu's for quite a long time. Before you invest in an aftermarket unit you should think of what you want out of your car and what you will be doing to it in the future. Gems and Link ecu's are superb so long as they are mapped by the right people. The best mappers i know of ar Bob Rawle (link) and Steve Simpson(Gems). Link unit cost approx £1500 all in and the Gems approx £1900. These units are very good and are used by many rally teams. Motec is another good make but costs near the £3K mark. Another option is re-mapping the ecu you already have! This is a very good option if you are not thinking of going above 1.5Bar. The company that has developed this system is ECUTEK www.ecutek.com. They have found a method of remapping the original ecu without running any piggyback ecu which is no where near as good. After speaking to Bob Rawle in some depth about the Link i also found out that he will be using the ECUTEK method very soon. He has already used it on his own car and apperently works very well. As i said the only downside is that you will not be able to run more that 1.5Bar. The cost is approx £600 + £250 for the mapping, so its a sightly cheaper option. #
Before you dive in the deep end you should research the subject very thoroughly and at the end of the day an ecu is only as good as the person who mapps it so be carefull on who you use. I cant tell you how many horror stories i have heard where people use cheap mappers and 600mile later the engine goes pop. So make loads of calls and ask them loads of questions, dont forget you are the one who is forking out the cash.
Good luck.

Gez

Boostman

I thought that the Ecutek upgrades could only be done on the later cars ?


Len.

mutant_matt

Boostman,

Correct, the EcuTek will currently only work on 99 and 00 cars. They are working on the MY01> range now.

PE do do a piggyback chip for the pre 99 cars called the Phase 1 which some people think is good, and some have had some very bad experiences of.

Gez, tell me more about Bob and the EcuTek stuff? Is he going to be programming cars using EcuTek software? How will this fit in with his Link work?

Matt

Adam M

Also consider that the Link and Gems are plug and play devices whereas the motec is a generic ecu which can be transported to future cars only by changing the loom adapter and the ecu operating parameters.

You should consider the number of zones available in the map as this can define how smooth the final engine map will be.

I like the idea of the gems because of the gimmicks you can get such as anti lag and launch control. The only problem for me would be the quality of the map.

I have no knowledge of steve simpson other than the cars he has mapped have not blown up so far! I know that I would trust bob to map my car.

I would not consider a phase 1 as it is not as adavanced as the ecutek mod, but for the 99 and 00 cars I think it is the intelligent option again so long as it is mapped correctly.

horsepower

Hi Tonka Man
I had my STI RA fitted with a GEMS unit by Townend Garage, and it's bob on! I agree with the people above, it's not so much about which ECU you use, but more about who maps it and how much time they spend on it. Townend have got so much on they told me, that they have now got someone there full-time just doing ECU's and other electrical upgrades. One thing they did say is that they are about to launch a brand new ecu for the Scoobys that they have had designed for them but by the sounds of it they pretty much cover every angle as they deal direct with australia for the Motec & Link systems. I didn't want a LINK system again as I had lots of problems with it. The Motec looked nice, but you don't seem to get a lot more than the Gems for the extra pound notes you have to spend.

So GEMS it is Tonka !!

HP

;-)

Sam Elassar

hi

i have tried both the link and the gems ecu. and to my honest opinion you just can't compare the two!

the gems is in a completely different league than the link ecu. if you download the gems software you will see how advanced the ecu is.

i have had my gems mapped on my evo7 by steve simpson and he does know what he is doing as well he is really nice guy. i have had the link mapped by bob rawle and he is also a very nice guy as well as a very compmentent mapper. so for mapping ability you really can't choose.

the other thing you have to keep in mind is how it is mapped. as far as i remember, the link and the ecuteks are both mapped using the standard lambda sensor. which is not really the most accurate way of doing things to say the least!! i have done a back to back comparison between the lambda link and the wideband lambda sensor ( 1500GBP) and the result was scary. basically the standard narrow band one was really 1-2% out all the time. which is not really great if you want to get the map spot on.


as for the link there is some issue that you will have to live with in the link ( ormaybe used to have to live with) but with the gems you can sort out.


as far as i remember the gems is 1400+vat so it is not far off the link.


sam
imho of course

Claudius

I'm surprised you say the link is so expensive! Didnt Andrew always say it's like 800 NZ dollars??

Anyway, Gems or Motec are basically the same, same processor and same features. The Apexi Power FC has a remote control for programming and engine info display in addition for the same price and a 20 grid map as well. Just cant run ALS.

Deep Singh

Adam,why do you say that you would have a problem with the 'quality of the map' on the Gems.

Sam Elassar

hi adam

did not notice your comment. why do you say that you don't trust the quality of hte map with the gems?

have you looked at the gems in detail. i have looked at both in detail and the gems is far superior in every way. what am i missing?

Hol

iTrader: (1)

Ive got a link fitted and set up by Bob Rawle for the previous car owner. As far as i know it is a complete new ECU and you can take it out to be fitted and mapped in a new car.

You can also map it yourself with a hand held device.

It runs 1.4bar (21PSI) and puts out a lot more torque in comparison to the other modified TypeR STI's I test drove. So it does make a nice difference.

ustolemyname??stevieturbo

iTrader: (1)

Does anyone have any experience with the other Oz ecu's. Like the Autronic, or Microtech? The Rigolis seem to use the Microtech a lot, so it must work pretty well, and Im sure its cheaper than the motec, which is ridiculously expensive.
ALS on a road car, is purely for gimmick. Anyone who was to use it to its full extent, is just asking for trouble, with blown turbos, manifolds, possibly burnt valves.
I would have thought that the GEMS would be available as a stand alone ecu, as well as a plug in unit, this would allow fitment to another car later. Obviously there may be some wiring involved with this approach tho.
The motec is handy with wiring harnesses to suit various cars, which would make swapping later very easy.

TONKA MAN

At last some serious help on the ECU dilema. I have booked my car in at Town End Garage, they use Steve Simpson part time and Andy who is now their full time mapper he has also sorted out an electronic diff controller - see drivetrain - sounds superb I'm having one fitted!!

I've decided to go for the GEMS as they seem to have had alot of success with the rally cars they have fitted with it Oh and I found out who car 4 was on the night event I enquired about at the start of this topic - Stuart Newby - gaffer at Town End - small world egh! He won the event 4 mins clear of Steve Webster also in a Subaru Impreza.

Anyway, anymore opinions gladly welcomed as I haven't parted with any money yet!!!

Tonka.

ChristianR

iTrader: (1)

I have a motec on my 2.5litre conversion.

nichop

So if you don't want to go above 1.5bar would you recommend the ECUTek ? If so, who is best to do the mapping (i'm in the South East) as it sounds like the mapping is key ?

Gez

Thats right mate, 1.5 bar is maximum on ECUTEK. But as i forgot to mention earlier on it can ony be done on MY99 - MY2000. The knowledgible mapper i know that mapps ECUTEK is Bob Rawle. He has only just started with the ECUTEK system as after speaking to him, he seem quite confident that it will work. Bob also mapps Link and Motec ecu's and from what i have heard he's one of the best. Give him a try.

john banks

Has someone (Bob?) found that Ecutek will not go beyond 1.5 bar? I have only tried it up to 1.4 bar.

The MAP sensor will read up to 1.7 bar at least, and this would also be FF in the boost aim tables.

I think the boost cut (without having it in front of me) would also go all the way up.

There are ways to get around it - use a higher flow MAF sensor if it saturates - I might be near this point am investigating presently, but a smaller turbo at 1.5 bar would be nowhere near.

I can see no reason not to go as high as you like with a few simple component changes/scaling a few sensors and mapping accordingly.

[Edited by john banks - 7/23/2002 1:58:44 PM]

Adam M

john, not being so up on electronics as you, from the outside I see modifying the output from the maf and map sensors as fudging the situation.

I would not be comfortable going beyond the quoted out[put for these sensors.

And as for competant mappers, if bob rawle is mapping ecuteks then that is great. I would not worry about anything else after that.

btw, do ecuteks therefore work on sti5s and 6s?

Gez

Hi Adam M,
Having bought an sti 6 recently, i have been researching the subject of aftermarket ecu's. Ecutek are offering the TEK3 upgrade which allows total custom mapping of the ecu. Bob Rawle is about to start offering this upgrade. What i dont know is how it will compare to the likes of a Link or Gems unit. After speaking in lenght with Bob he said that the standard unit is very good and is up to the job. At the time he was testing it on his own car which also has a number of modifications. If you are thinking of the Ecutek then i would wait a while until a few people have carried out the mod on an STI5/6, and see how their car has reacted to it. In terms of cost the upgrade is £650 + £250 approx for mapping. The mapping cost depends on the state of your car ie mapping time will take longer if your car is heavilly modified. I hope this helps.

Regards

Gez

john banks

Adam, the standard MAF sensor has a calibration map in the ECU which can be adjusted - there would be no external boxes or signal modifiers. Alternatively the MAF sensor could be replaced by a higher flowing item, but no one has done this or said what they have done, but since you can completely rewrite the calibration map then a 5V sensor which ran much higher airflow that could be physically installed could be setup and then the sky would be the limit. We think the limit is between 350 and 380 BHP of the standard sensor.

The MAP sensor is "kind of " 3 bar - after 1.7 bar it is a bit non linear, but presumably this issue would beset all the systems unless you replace the MAP sensor with a better item - however you would need something that reads about 2.3V at atmospheric - again I haven't looked into this in detail. However, how many are wanting to run over 1.7 bar? Anyway, it is not used for fuelling just for boost control.

So it should not be too fudgey, just selecting appropriate sensors for the job, but thankfully Subaru seem to have left some good reserve in these particular departments unless you are totally barking mad with the power.

nichop

What is the contact for Bob Rawle and where is he based ? What about Power Engineering ? Do they do custom mapping ? Also, regarding the tek2, am I right in thinking it can be custom mapped at a later date ? How good a map is it out of the box because presumably this is dependent on whoever mapped it in the first place and on what spec of car. If my spec is different then, whilst it may work ok its not going to be giving me the best.

Bob Rawle

John. std sensor is linear to 1.8 bar after which it plateaus, apply 4.98 volts and then pressurise and measure output.

Adam "Sti5/6" ... great big smilies !!!

BTW as John says its easy to rescale the maf load lines.

John, it may well be possible to run more than 1.5 bar, I need/want to run circa 1.6 myself so we will see. I quote this as being applicable allowing for approx 0.2 bar headroom for the cut, since the map sensor is restricted to 1.8 bar then its prudent to work on that.

R19KET

Bob,

I can help you out with a 4bar map sensor then you won't be so restricted

Mark.

Sam Elassar

Tonka man

You have done the right choice mate. As I said before I have tried both, the link and the gems albeit on two different cars. The link was on my Scooby and the gems is on the evo.

There is a lot of nice features in the gems that you will not find in the link or the ecutek. I will just list some of which I have come across while having the gems mapped.

1. the gems supports two maps. So you can have an alternative map for NUL or optimax +cvl, toluene or what ever your heart fancy really.
2. the gems has also got temperature compensation. What that means the ecu will actually adjust the map according to the charge temps ( and weather). This is very useful feature. Basically your map remains constant. I would assume that a maf based map like the ecutek will support that. But the link will not, as far as I kow.
3. you get anti lag with the gems and also launch control. They are not very important but you can have them if you want. I use the anti lag as an anti tailgaters device
4. gems allow real time mapping so does the link while the ecutek does not. What that means it will take a lot longer to map the ecuteck than both the gems and the link. Actually to get the same detail of mapping will take you days! Every time you do a change you will have to stop and restart the ecu. While with the gems and the link what ever you change takes effect straightway.
5. the gems has got better boost control than both the link and the standard ecu ( ecutek). Basically more zones and each zone goes from 1-99.6. so there is a lot of definition there. That will not be a problem with a standard car. But comes tuning time when you fit a bigger intercooler for example you will need it. when I had my link and a FMIC I got big boost spikes. The cure was to take all the restrictors out and raise the boost gradually. Now that is not a cure that is a compromise!!
6. the gems provides acceleration and deceleration enrichment and retardation. For example, some Subaru engines can get knock if you floor it at high revs from part throttle. Like if you are holding 0psi at 5000revs and floor it to 21psi or so. All you can do with the link and probably with the ecutek, is reduce the ignion advance in these high zones for this situation only. Although the engine does not knock normally there if you raise the boost steadily. ( very difficult to explain in words) however this is also a compromise. What you need is to cut the advance on sharp throttle movements and enriches these zones. You can get enrichment with the link but that is about it. the same applies to the famous lift off det, if you have deceleration enrichment and ignition retardation you will get rid of it.
7. with the gems you can control the fuel pump speed and voltage. Very handy for getting as much fuel of your fuel system as possible. Some people rewire the fuel pump to get the ful 14v supply, with the gems you don’t need to
8. you can also control the wastegate operating speed, another handy little feature
9. off course the gems also has got the ability to map water injection system if you want to add it in the future, however both the link and the ecutek can’t.
10. you can map the EGR system with the gems,
11. THE LIST just goes on.



the way I look at it, is the ecutek is a very good product for the price, but at the end of the day it is just a fancy name for a chip. Incease few parameters make the car run faster etc.. but you will never see a rally car or a race car running one. Ask yourself way.

The link is a great product for the money. I was going to go for it however they did not make it for the evo7 at the time. I have been told that now they do. Or will very soon.

hi Bob
How are you doing, long time no speak. Do you still use the standard lambda sensor to map the cars with the link or are you using a wide band now?

john banks

Bob, what do you think about the MAF limits? I have seen 4.68V from the MAF sensor, and the standard map for it saturates at 4.64V. Have you rescaled the map, and have you saturated the MAF voltage but are clearly running more airflow? I suppose it could be difficult to see if it goes non-linear and then "clips"?

Adam M

I must admit, I am a little concerned having read much more on it these days about the limits of mapping a car on narrow band lambda. I dont know how much better you can make things mapping via egt, but I know for sure that I will be using wideband input to the pectel for all mapping in future. Or at least i will be paying someone else to do this!

john banks

I didn't find the EGT very useful when I had it before - it just stayed cool - but I was not out for extracting every last horsie. Wideband would be very nice - will be interesting to see how useful the factory one is on the late cars.

ustolemyname??stevieturbo

iTrader: (1)

Im no expert, but Id say that EGT arent that useful . The temps will vary far too much, depending on where the probe is positioned. It will then vary due to too many variables ( mixture, ign timing, charge temps) , and just exactly what temperature is good, and what is bad?? Im sure temps would read higher, if the ex ports/valves/ manifolds?? were ceramic coated etc, or manifolds wrapped maybe??
AT least with a wideband there is only one variable. Mixture. You can buy a complete wideband setup for around £600, so it really isnt that expensive for serious tuning. An EGT is a toy, that may have some minor tuning uses.
The GEMS does sound pretty impressive, more so than the MOTEC from reading various posts regarding its features. Does it have a closed loop/lambda target fuelling option?? ( wideband or from an external AFR sensor via an aux input 0-5v ?? )

Sam Elassar

an egt will be very useful tool actually but again it is not very accurate. i think if you have a narrow band and egt will be the minimum to get close. it will also tell you if your lambda is not working.

i went and mapped my car using the gems and the lambda link and the standard bosch 4 wire lambda sensor. i mapped it for 3-4%co at 0 psi, 1-2%co for vaccum and 9% co at the top end. the from 0-1bar was a smooth transition from 3-4% to7%etc..
i did this the day before steve arrived with the wide band.


the finding was very interesting.

i was very lean at the vaccum, very lean at 0bar, lean 1-2% at 0.5bar ( set at 7% !! ) and over 1bar it was very very rich. now does that make sense to anyone?!

it is basically opposite what i thought it would be. moving the lambda by 3-4% did not change the narrow band lambda reading at all.

maybe it the evo uses a much worst lambda sensor than the subaru ? but it is a 4 wire bosch one and it is suppose to be better than the subaru 3 wire.

another example, i have seen and helped map more than 3-4subarus with the link over here. i have set them all at 0.88-0.89 which is 9%+

on the local rollers, each one of them gave different reading on co!! most were a lot richer than this, 11% co region.


you make your own conclusions.


sam