Ash Webster

I currently have an ESL map done by Andy Carr. (V3 STI)

Just wondering, as im following Andy Forrest's guide on up-staging my car, and he seems to stick with an Apexi Standalone Power FC. Is the ESL board comparable? i.e can i tick off that box and ignore it?!

Very nearly at Stage 4

Ash

On-the-bog

How far are your eventual tuning goals?

Apexi is decent enough but pretty old now. Next jump would prob be Alcatek but customer service sucks. Syvecs is pricey but great kit and great customer service. If your planning on having big engine build and so on later then its worth spending the extra for a syvecs.

Ash Webster

I've read great things about syvecs too - I just cant justify the funds right now - I've got to get a roll cage, race dash, and other various things in order to make my car track ready

Aiming for 400-450, obviously when I have the money for a rotated setup (GT35 etc) I'd like to go BIG, but again that incurs extra other costs such as needing a 6 speed gearbox to handle 500+

Is alcatek that different to ESL? I've heard I can get multiple maps on ESL now?

Ash

On-the-bog

your gonna be limited to 350 ish on the box anyway so just stay as is. Not worth switching till you go the full beans and then go syvecs route.

JGlanzaV

iTrader: (3)

This youll be lucky to make the box last at 350 on track.

You need a 6 speed anyway....

And its all very well having a fancy turbo etc, but having a naff ecu wont protect your major investments when it all goes pete tong...

Ash Webster

I didnt realise ESL was that bad

ossett2k2

iTrader: (9)

It's not
Jay likes to take every opportunity to have a dig at ESL
when infact anyone who uses or maps ESL will tell you it's actually a great piece of kit,very capable and far from naff.

JGlanzaV

iTrader: (3)

I wasnt having a dig. Hey pick your weapon of choice and pay your moneys. I never said anywhere in this thread esl was naff? Please dont put words in my mouth

Seeing as we are now on the subject, personally wouldnt fit one in my car as I dont rate them. Would use a syvecs personally if doing a big build.... Having to deal with alcatek I wouldnt use one of theirs again either in hindsight...

ossett2k2

iTrader: (9)

Haha very true,apologies.

The only reason I wouldn't go ESL is if I were going AVCS(which I might one day)

For the price ESL is very good.
Syvecs does seem to be the daddy tho

JGlanzaV

iTrader: (3)

Avcs is definitely worth the upgrade. I dont know how I survived withouy it!

ossett2k2

iTrader: (9)

I'm pretty sure the twin scroll setup on mine would benefit a lot from avcs.
Need a better bottom end tho firsts before I think about top end

duster

I have esl and ca 370hp from engine, fiew years back esl was very cheap and almost good option, today i would take something ealse. Mostly because u loose closed loop knock control if u make stroker, no avcs possibility, ZERO customer feedback and very little tuning adwise cept manual. I would take that http://www.ecumaster.co.uk/products/...anagement-unit there are good and fast wiring options too for subarus.

ossett2k2

iTrader: (9)

Why do you loose knock control if you stroke it?
You don't usually set the knock control on closed loop(you can if you want but pointless!)
If you're getting det in closed loop then the tune is bad or false knock.

I've found customer support to be very good to be honest.

The Rig

iTrader: (13)

Have to agree poor customer response since the mapping courses

I bought ESL and was told by Andy he is always available to answer questions , shame he forgot that statement of late .....

If you have mailed Andy and got a reply to your answer then count yourself lucky , I dont promote ESL to my Subaru owning friends anymore

duster

U loose knock control because with bigger displacement or forged insides knock control needs to recalibrate, which cant be done in esl. Bigger displacement has even different frequency i belive, so it reads false knock or doesn't read anything. U loose closed loop lambda control, if u want to log wideband lambda, u cant change any starting maps which may be problem with 3x bigger injector's than stock, no ability to see injector duty cycle, so complete guessing and trial and error in most of tuning process. There is noone, who wants to tune it in my country, because today it doesnt have even price advantage over other, better options. It's good for little tweaking and near stock car's, if u have done a lot, u loose all the benefit's and remain only bad sides. I'm thinking of changing wiring to newage 16bit ecu and carberry rom or take the EMU ecu.

ossett2k2

iTrader: (9)

I haven't tried contacting Andy since the courses started so can't comment on that.
You can log wideband and retain closed loop fueling afaik.
I disagree with the idea that the factory knock control can't hear det with a stroker.
Use your ears and detcans when tuning anyway,if you know it's false knock from drivetrain etc then switch of the knock control in that area.
I have increased injector size by 70% and have zero problems:
One thing I do agree on is that you can't log injector duty which would be a great bonus if you could(maybe one day @Andy Stevens ? )

JGlanzaV

iTrader: (3)

Closed loop knock control is an engine saver. Why would you disable it?

ossett2k2

iTrader: (9)

Yeh I was getting mixed up with closed loop and open loop.
Sure you leave knock control active when in higher engine loads but if the ecu is detecting a knock event when you're not on load then it can be switched off in that area if you're not hearing det.
I don't see why you would need knock control when just cruising about?
I also don't see why the factory knock control won't detect knock if you run a stroker?

Of corse I'm still learning so might have it all wrong and be talking out of my ****?

On-the-bog

Sounds like its the limitations of the ecu and its the only way to get round it. Not an ideal way for sure.

Ash Webster

If i ever ring/mail him i get nothing, however when i go to ScoobyTek (or ScoobySpares), Scott seems to be able to get hold of him as he has set days where he comes down to map customers cars.

ossett2k2

iTrader: (9)

I think you must have the wrong Andy lol
Doubt Andy Stevens travels to blackpool to map at scoobytek

The Rig

iTrader: (13)

i think Duster is on about how a noisy engine (stroker/forged) creates false knock/det in the ECU.

i had to turn off certain cells in closed loop that were detecting knock at very low loads , probably my knackered gearbox ha ha

ossett2k2

iTrader: (9)

Ah I get ye now,so do stroker/forged engines create false knock on high load?
What do other ecus do to get around this? Is it that the sensors are better?

Ash Webster

I was on about Andrew Carr

ossett2k2

iTrader: (9)

Who mentioned Andrew Carr?
You quoted the Rig who mentioned Andy that's Andy notcarr

Ash Webster

I did in my original post

ossett2k2

iTrader: (9)

You should of quoted your original post then

duster

yes, i ment noisy engine and with bigger bore u have different knock frequency: try that for example, 2l 92, 2,5l 99 and u see difference, these parameters can't be changed. http://www.phormula.com/KnockCalculator.aspx
Other good standalones have ability to filter out engine noise and use wideband knock sensors. Maybe we should make new thread about esl tuning discussion or something like that, because everybody dont have the money or time to go to get information on some courses from other side of the world

The Rig

iTrader: (13)

Totally Agree, I bought and paid good money for the ECU AND Support, well, now the Support has been dropped unless you pay for it.

Luckily there are a few good eggs who do help out on here

Although, if we did the course we would be let in on their private discussions group made available to them

ossett2k2

iTrader: (9)

There's a private discussion group? You joking??