duster

Greetings.
I have a big problem with 850CC jecs injectors, the car is studdering, makes bangs and pops on idle and low load conditions, today i'll take it to a little testdrive to see if it acts better on bigger load. Nothing helps against this studdering, afr has big play in it, i may scale injectors to whatever, no help. I have changed injectors with esl before (stock grey's to sti yellows) and had no sutch problem, the injector scaling was easy to find.
A little about the car: 2,5l sleeved and forged engine, lateral perfomance ic, homemade rotated exhaust collector and uppipe, twinscroll,ewg, Holset hx35super on it, 6mt swap, esl, over a year mafless, selftuned.

1 question more, is there any option to measure or see somehow injector duty cycle, or a complete darkness? My honest opinion is that my problem comes from wrong injector latency tables, which i cant see or change, so how to compensate that?
I didnt write to andy, because i have done it several times in the past 2 years and newer came back anything, serious dissapointment.

duster

Did the driving today too, loaded engine works better, if i scale injector the way i get decent afr's @wot, needed adding a lot fuel to low engine load and rpm area. Anyone any ideas?

ossett2k2

iTrader: (9)

I assume you are viewing and making changes to fuel in raw values.
I have 740 injectors and had to take a significant amount of fuel out to get my table and AFRs in line on idle and cruise.
What is your injector scale at now?

Unfortunately the logging of Injector duty isn't available on ESL,would be very nice to be able to log this data.

duster

I know, i had to do the same, and it is all logical, now i have to do opposite way, that is not logical. I changed only injector, before that my map was with very minimal play in fine learned fuel correction, drove without lamda correction long period to get it dialed in faster. My injector scale is 0.52 at the moment, but i have to pull it down more, wot is still too rich and idle area lean. Car misfires randomly under light load, in gear is almost good, wot has too rich places.

ossett2k2

iTrader: (9)

What is your fuel pump set up?
Standard FPR?

bludgod

iTrader: (3)

from my chatting with Andy before and following the ESL course, the latency doesn't seem to be a big deal on them even with giant injectors. It all comes down to reworking the fuel map and the injector scaling. Sure their own demo car has mahoosive injectors and still tootles about just fine.

Do you have any logs with wideband data and are you happy to post your map up here? If you can capture some idle time and light cruise it may help narrow down the problem.

for your injectors you probably want to be in the 0.44/0.45 range and then adjust the fuel table raw values as you did before.


Worth noting the fuel table doubles as a VE table and the fuel table. So things like changing injectors or turbo will need a little more tweaking than you would on something that has a dedicated VE and IPW fuel table.

duster

I have innovate lc2 in my car, but at the moment its not connected to ecu, so i can post everything, but with only narrowband signal at the moment.
I can get the afr's to normal with or without lamda control active, with stoichiometric afr it's studdering or koffing or is just very rough. I made a little video, ill put it to youtube and post a link, what i exactly mean at the evening, in the meantime i'll try to take injector scaling smaller and see what happens. Is there any difference, if i make changes to raw data or the usual afr target version, is the only difference in numbers shown? I have done it until now in usual view and calculated everything the way, that on wot i have very similar afr's as in target...

bludgod

iTrader: (3)

if your running mafless then better to view as raw data rather than the AFR target value. The afr target value no longer applies when your in SD mode as the fuel table becomes both fuel target and VE combined so just flick to raw and fiddle around until you get closer to 14.7.

if your fuelling is good and the car still judders try to go a tiny bit richer and have a play with the timing.

ossett2k2

iTrader: (9)

Page 9 of the manual.
All changes to the fuel table should be made in raw view when mafless.

duster

If it's richer, it runs alot better, i mean around 12 afr, but lambda control will try to go for 14,7 anyway, so i'll loose lambda control forever? I use it on trackdays and also as a fast daily so i hope its not messing up my fuelconsumption, which is pretty high anyway (alot higher than with 2l was), maybe it wants more advanced timing on light cruise, its the first car that i ever tuned so i dont have experience enough for that and all the romraider forum information about fuelconsumption tuning is mostly for cars with avcs so i dont know, do these stories apply for my engine too or not.

My fuelpump is some noname pump intank, 2l swirlpot at the trunk (did get some starvation at hard conerings without) and bosch 044 inline pump for engine, i modded fuelrails to parallel setup and welded custom braket and piping for stock fpr, my fuelpressure is 3bar at idle and reacts as it should to manifold presure change. I tried lower pressure too, swiched 044 off and got 0.8bar pressure, with old injectors it died, now it doesnt, gets leaner, but compensates and holds still near stoich on idle, didnt risk to give it higher rpm. Fuel pressure drastic drop didnt change the bangs and pops thow.

This setup with old injectors worked flawlessly and was a blast to drive, las change was only injectors, nothing ealse.

duster

Today i tried almost everything, the result is, that i can use whatever scaling, leaner than 12 idle and very light load isnt working, on 12 afr it is not good, but that was best that i was able to get. To be sure, i changed the injectors to old ones and changed my map to old one, everything works as was working before.
my opinion is this: Those injectors and this ecu wont cooperate, in latency, they are too different compared to original grey's. I have two options, get different injector's (which behave similar to originals exept flow rate) or get a decent ecu, that has truly "skylimits" in everything.
With esl and without injector lag changings, possibility to see injector duty cycle and even my log files have never been shown any number after 6350rpm, i see today too many missings, bug's and problems+ manual doesn't say anything about these "differences" to stand alone ecu's. big power is surely no problem to esl, big power with factory driveability i'm not so sure anymore.
I will bench these injector's and i hope they are cheap chinese clone, if anyone know reasonable priced injector, that work good with esl and flow enough to use 53lb/s turbo to decent figures, don't hesitate to informate me Next week i'll get them benched, add wideband logging and then i'll decide, if i get new injectors again or change ecu, i seriosly hope i can get it working with esl, i hate wireing job's.

ossett2k2

iTrader: (9)

Tick 50 step rpm for logging over 6350.
Maybe they are bad injectors?
I run DW740cc and it's fine in ESL.
Mafless but not running IAT just yet,needs setting up.

turbotog

I assume your injectors are reflowed jecs.. who were they worked on by? Are they from fleabay?
I don't have experience with mapping, but to me, it sounds like cheap Injectors.. from what I've learnt from others experiences, cheap reflowed injectors are often not flow matched and impossible to map on idle..
Personally I will be upgrading to ID1000s when the 565cc hawkeye injectors i've just ordered run out of puff lol! Other car manufacturer forums seem to think DW aren't very good - but even they mentioned the subaru owners rate them - but no experience personally!
Good luck!

duster

jeebay, jecs, http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-x-850cc-si...-/222149484810
This is a big possibility, friend has also approx 750cc injectors, dunno company, idles a bit rouht and maf scaling was off due to different inlet, but is acceptable, also esl. There was no information on the internet about them, so i gave them a try and someone, who has trackday car only or has full possibility to tune them in, gets cheap almost new injectors...

duster

I installed injector dynamics ID1000 topfeed injectors. Car behaves a lot better, but fuelmap needs very big reworking, studdering is gone. Biggest issue is too big throttle enrichment at the moment, how to change that?
Fuel map looks too very strange, i'm maffless, but needed to add a lot fuel to low rpm (was 20afr or so before, now is beginning in 13) or it leans out and has hot and cold starting issues.

bludgod

iTrader: (3)

as well as reworking the fuel map don't forget to adjust the injector scale value. You can't adjust latency directly but changing the injector scale will have an impact on tip in and idle.

Are you sure it's running 20AFR at idle or do you mean that's the fuel target now? Going up a size in the injectors could also mean you have too much fuel, so much you get incomplete combustion and a false AFR reading. For mafless you want to be looking at the fuel table RAW values not the AFR target anymore - you'll likely end up in the low 80's/high 70's (raw) around idle.

duster

Of course i changed injector scale, i was talking about target's not reality. In reality my afr's are ok, cept tip in enrichment and funny thing is that i needed to add a lot fuel to low rpm, fuel map looks like on a maf mode, which shouldn't be that way. 70-80 in raw would be expected and logical and with sti yellows it was like that, now is more like 140 and up to 0,3bar boost goes to 128, later smaller.

duster

I mapped it to 1,3bar of boost, the only problem that is left is cold starting, it occasionally flood's the engine, is there any other way to compensate it than injector scale? I dont want to recalibrate my whole fuelmap. At the moment i start the car with only intank pump that feeds my swirlpot, i get 0.5bar fuelpressure and then it starts ok, idles ca 30sec and then ill swich my bosch 044 on