Hopeless in the Snow
02 February 2009, 10:39 AM
#1
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Hopeless in the Snow
I was expecting a bit more capability than I got this morning. Fiddled about with the DCCD but not a massive difference in grip.
4x4 pah!!!
Anyone else had some better experiences??
4x4 pah!!!
Anyone else had some better experiences??
02 February 2009, 11:07 AM
#3
02 February 2009, 12:42 PM
#7
AWD as in 4 driven wheels doesn't mean you have more grip....all it gives is more driven wheels.....if all those wheels have no grip, then it doesn't matter if they are driven or not, the car will be out of control, slide, spin or get stuck, just like a 2wd car.
The only thing is it does give you is more chance of maintaining traction should one or two wheels (or three if you have a rear LSD - scoobs do) should lose grip, so there is less chance of becoming stuck. Thats all.
This opens up another tin of worms, because although one can easily get an Impreza in motion in the snow and ice. The problems soon arises when it comes to stopping, controlling and going round bends. As it is no better than a 2wd car.
If anything, its more dangerous as: a) you are under a false impression of AWD invincibility therefore drive too fast. b) It allows you to drive on roads where really you should not be attempting to drive any further, as you will have difficulty negotiating bends or stopping; Its better to get stuck, than find yourself going out of control later on and binning your pride on joy, or worse hitting and injuring any third parties that may get in your way.
If anything I will say a FWD car is better in the snow simply because its much easier to handle one in motion. AWD is on par with RWD in terms of controllability; both need precise driver control to handle, both requiring delicate and highly precise throttle control as well as ability to modulate brakes and perform corrective steering.
The only thing is it does give you is more chance of maintaining traction should one or two wheels (or three if you have a rear LSD - scoobs do) should lose grip, so there is less chance of becoming stuck. Thats all.
This opens up another tin of worms, because although one can easily get an Impreza in motion in the snow and ice. The problems soon arises when it comes to stopping, controlling and going round bends. As it is no better than a 2wd car.
If anything, its more dangerous as: a) you are under a false impression of AWD invincibility therefore drive too fast. b) It allows you to drive on roads where really you should not be attempting to drive any further, as you will have difficulty negotiating bends or stopping; Its better to get stuck, than find yourself going out of control later on and binning your pride on joy, or worse hitting and injuring any third parties that may get in your way.
If anything I will say a FWD car is better in the snow simply because its much easier to handle one in motion. AWD is on par with RWD in terms of controllability; both need precise driver control to handle, both requiring delicate and highly precise throttle control as well as ability to modulate brakes and perform corrective steering.
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02 February 2009, 01:24 PM
#8
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Wow, thanks for that comprehensive assessment of the Scoob in snow.
Definitely have to agree with all those points. It's a tricky little begger.
The snows supposed to get a lot worse tonight so I think I'll leave it the garage. Not worse having an accident.
Definitely have to agree with all those points. It's a tricky little begger.
The snows supposed to get a lot worse tonight so I think I'll leave it the garage. Not worse having an accident.
02 February 2009, 01:40 PM
#9
Just needs practice: If your used to RWD (with a limited slip diff) cars in the snow, it helps alot. As alot of techniques carry over.
Steering using the throttle pedal is probably is the main one. As they understeer so easily its handy to drift the rear round on command should one need to.
Also if its a old classic with 3channel ABS, you'll probably find the ABS makes the brakes useless, removing the ABS fuse to deactivate the system does improve things. Obviously this opens a can of legal worms as if you crash with the ABS disabled, then your car will be seen as unroadworthy and should have been driven etc. ), so do it with caution and are aware of the legal/insurance risks.
My first snow+RWD experience was gained in a 1985 Porsche 911 - which are suprisingly good in the snow.
Steering using the throttle pedal is probably is the main one. As they understeer so easily its handy to drift the rear round on command should one need to.
Also if its a old classic with 3channel ABS, you'll probably find the ABS makes the brakes useless, removing the ABS fuse to deactivate the system does improve things. Obviously this opens a can of legal worms as if you crash with the ABS disabled, then your car will be seen as unroadworthy and should have been driven etc. ), so do it with caution and are aware of the legal/insurance risks.
My first snow+RWD experience was gained in a 1985 Porsche 911 - which are suprisingly good in the snow.
Last edited by ALi-B; 02 February 2009 at 01:42 PM.
02 February 2009, 02:01 PM
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that's sounds like a fun choice of snow-mobile.Its my typeR, so its very rear end happy at the best of times, really shows in the snow. The slightest lock on the wheel and the rear wants to go.
No ABS fitted either, which is definitely a bonus.
02 February 2009, 03:03 PM
#12
I refer you to this
From another guy that spends time in the alps
Information courtesy of a post made by BMWhere - one of the german contingent
Winter Tyres
The wider the tyre, the more distance the tyre has to shift the snow from the center of the tyre and the more chance that the tread will block. Once the tread blocks, you are effectively driving on a slick! The same is true for driving on wet roads when there is too much water for the tyre to shift - we call it Aquaplaning! Wider tyres are more subject to aquaplaning than thinner tyres.
The way the tread works in shifting snow or water is to move - The tread is designed to make a kind of ripple movement which helps push the water or snow out from the center of the tyre allowing the maximum contact patch. The more movement in the tread, the more effective it is at clearing the snow or water.
Different rubber compounds work differently at different temperatures. The type of tyres you fit to an average FWD car will generally be a semi-soft all weather compound which is quite suitable for winter driving in the UK. The tyres you fit on your scooby to cope with high speeds and hard sporty driving (E.g. Goodyear F1's, Toyo Proxes etc.) are a much harder compound. A harder compound tyre will 'freeze' as the temperature drops, which means the tread is no longer able to move, so is no longer able to efficiently move the water or snow out of the tread! The tread needs to be soft and pliable in order to provide a) maximum grip on the road surface and b) maximum ability to remove water or snow from the contact patch.
Take F1 for example, they use an ultra-hard compound compared to road tyres, so they have to weave around to generate heat in the tyres in order for the tyre to grip. If they don't get enough heat in the tyres they tend to crash!
Also the tread cut makes a big difference. The deeper the tread, the wider the cuts and an increased number of cuts will all help to generate heat in the tyre and to allow maximum movement in the tread for dissipating water or snow from the contact patch.
So generally, the sporty tyres you have fitted to your scooby will start to 'freeze' below around 10-12 degrees (depending on the tyre type). By 8 degrees the tyre will be 'Frozen' and no longer capable of effectively gripping to a dry road surface or shifting water on a wet surface. When it snows, the surface temperature will be around 0 degrees, so your sporty tyre has no chance of shifting the snow - will immediately block and you will slide around like your on ice skates! The wider the tyre, the bigger the problem!
By fitting a softer compound winter tyre which is designed to work from temperatures from -15 to around 15 degrees you get the following advantages:
1. The rubber doesn't freeze until the surface temperature drops below -15 degrees so the rubber is able to grip properly with the tarmac.
2. More, wider and deeper tread cuts allow more movement in the tyres which inturn generates more heat in the tyre, so the tyres don't require so much time to warm up.
3. Optimal tread pattern allows the tyre to shift large amounts of water or snow providing maximum grip on wet or snow covered surfaces!
4. Improved braking distances in all conditions due to effective grip with the tarmac.
On temperatures between 15 and 20 degrees, the winter tyre will still work quite well but tyre wear will be increased as the tyre overheats. There is generally an overlap between 8 and 15 degrees where you could argue neither tyre is better than the other, although obviously the winter tyre would be better at the lower end where the normal tyre would be better at the higher end.
In the UK, the average surface temperatures are below 8 degrees for November to March so winter tyres would be work better (i.e. are SAFER!) during this period - note its the temperature of the road surface (track temperature) which is important, not the air temperature! The surface temperature doesn't heat up as quickly as the air, so the odd warm week is still going to be better on winter tyres.
From another guy that spends time in the alps
Information courtesy of a post made by BMWhere - one of the german contingent
Winter Tyres
The wider the tyre, the more distance the tyre has to shift the snow from the center of the tyre and the more chance that the tread will block. Once the tread blocks, you are effectively driving on a slick! The same is true for driving on wet roads when there is too much water for the tyre to shift - we call it Aquaplaning! Wider tyres are more subject to aquaplaning than thinner tyres.
The way the tread works in shifting snow or water is to move - The tread is designed to make a kind of ripple movement which helps push the water or snow out from the center of the tyre allowing the maximum contact patch. The more movement in the tread, the more effective it is at clearing the snow or water.
Different rubber compounds work differently at different temperatures. The type of tyres you fit to an average FWD car will generally be a semi-soft all weather compound which is quite suitable for winter driving in the UK. The tyres you fit on your scooby to cope with high speeds and hard sporty driving (E.g. Goodyear F1's, Toyo Proxes etc.) are a much harder compound. A harder compound tyre will 'freeze' as the temperature drops, which means the tread is no longer able to move, so is no longer able to efficiently move the water or snow out of the tread! The tread needs to be soft and pliable in order to provide a) maximum grip on the road surface and b) maximum ability to remove water or snow from the contact patch.
Take F1 for example, they use an ultra-hard compound compared to road tyres, so they have to weave around to generate heat in the tyres in order for the tyre to grip. If they don't get enough heat in the tyres they tend to crash!
Also the tread cut makes a big difference. The deeper the tread, the wider the cuts and an increased number of cuts will all help to generate heat in the tyre and to allow maximum movement in the tread for dissipating water or snow from the contact patch.
So generally, the sporty tyres you have fitted to your scooby will start to 'freeze' below around 10-12 degrees (depending on the tyre type). By 8 degrees the tyre will be 'Frozen' and no longer capable of effectively gripping to a dry road surface or shifting water on a wet surface. When it snows, the surface temperature will be around 0 degrees, so your sporty tyre has no chance of shifting the snow - will immediately block and you will slide around like your on ice skates! The wider the tyre, the bigger the problem!
By fitting a softer compound winter tyre which is designed to work from temperatures from -15 to around 15 degrees you get the following advantages:
1. The rubber doesn't freeze until the surface temperature drops below -15 degrees so the rubber is able to grip properly with the tarmac.
2. More, wider and deeper tread cuts allow more movement in the tyres which inturn generates more heat in the tyre, so the tyres don't require so much time to warm up.
3. Optimal tread pattern allows the tyre to shift large amounts of water or snow providing maximum grip on wet or snow covered surfaces!
4. Improved braking distances in all conditions due to effective grip with the tarmac.
On temperatures between 15 and 20 degrees, the winter tyre will still work quite well but tyre wear will be increased as the tyre overheats. There is generally an overlap between 8 and 15 degrees where you could argue neither tyre is better than the other, although obviously the winter tyre would be better at the lower end where the normal tyre would be better at the higher end.
In the UK, the average surface temperatures are below 8 degrees for November to March so winter tyres would be work better (i.e. are SAFER!) during this period - note its the temperature of the road surface (track temperature) which is important, not the air temperature! The surface temperature doesn't heat up as quickly as the air, so the odd warm week is still going to be better on winter tyres.
02 February 2009, 04:35 PM
#14
Also if its a old classic with 3channel ABS, you'll probably find the ABS makes the brakes useless, removing the ABS fuse to deactivate the system does improve things. Obviously this opens a can of legal worms as if you crash with the ABS disabled, then your car will be seen as unroadworthy and should have been driven etc. ), so do it with caution and are aware of the legal/insurance risks.
ABS is not on the MOT test criteria and is not requirement on a road car afaik.
02 February 2009, 04:39 PM
#15
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As above: tyres are the biggest factor. All the fancy diffs in the world won't help if your contact pathes with the ground have no purchase!
02 February 2009, 04:44 PM
#16
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For the record, ABS works fine in the snow! Even on classics! The thing that isn't working is the tyres and you can't remove a fuse to fix them!
02 February 2009, 05:41 PM
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am i right in thinking if you lower your tyre pressures to around 15-20psi its easier to drive on snow? because you have more of a rolling resistance or is it better to put more air in the tyre to make a smaller contact surface?
02 February 2009, 05:55 PM
#18
Never a truer word spoken. Got over Hartside Pass (1903ft and 31 hairpin bends) this morning in horrendous conditions - 9" of level snow (much more in drifts) and white out visibility at the top. AWD plus proper winter tyres (Michelin Alpin Sport 3) is an awesome combination. You still need your wits about you and to drive with intelligence, but I'd never have got over without them
02 February 2009, 06:03 PM
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To complete!?
There are basicly 3 kinds of winter tyres.
The 'european' kind, made for wet condtions and high speed, often what is recomended by manufacturer because they have a speed rating consistent with cars top speed. Take care in icy and snowy conditions.
Scandinavian studded tyres: softer compound, much finer thread pattern, usually rated at 160km/h, Great in all close to 0 C and colder conditions. Swedish authorities don't like them 'cause they wear harder on the roads (but they claim it's because the dust created is dangerous for us). Rather loud.
Scandinavian non-studded tyres. From rather good in all winter conditions to lethal! Depending on manufacturer. I have run on a not very good set a full winter incl a trip to the mountains with all iced up roads and lots of snow. Summer tyres would have been a disaster.
Even softer than tudded tyres as they don't need to hold the studs. Good compromise, can be used early in the season in Sweden and in UK/gGermany etc where studded tyres are illegal.
Remember that when you use the winter tyres the summer tyres doesn't wear! So it's not that much more dear.
Now go and buy winter tyres and stop moaning about scoobys being hopeless in winter! They are great!!
And fun
There are basicly 3 kinds of winter tyres.
The 'european' kind, made for wet condtions and high speed, often what is recomended by manufacturer because they have a speed rating consistent with cars top speed. Take care in icy and snowy conditions.
Scandinavian studded tyres: softer compound, much finer thread pattern, usually rated at 160km/h, Great in all close to 0 C and colder conditions. Swedish authorities don't like them 'cause they wear harder on the roads (but they claim it's because the dust created is dangerous for us). Rather loud.
Scandinavian non-studded tyres. From rather good in all winter conditions to lethal! Depending on manufacturer. I have run on a not very good set a full winter incl a trip to the mountains with all iced up roads and lots of snow. Summer tyres would have been a disaster.
Even softer than tudded tyres as they don't need to hold the studs. Good compromise, can be used early in the season in Sweden and in UK/gGermany etc where studded tyres are illegal.
Remember that when you use the winter tyres the summer tyres doesn't wear! So it's not that much more dear.
Now go and buy winter tyres and stop moaning about scoobys being hopeless in winter! They are great!!
And fun
02 February 2009, 06:20 PM
#21
Yes ABS is checked in MOT on two criteria; if the car has ABS fitted, the ABS warning light should turn on when the ignition is switched on, and then should extinguish either after the engine is started or after the car is driven above 5mph.
If the light fails to illuminate = fail
If the light stays on all the time = fail
If the waning lamp is missing = fail
The only way round the MOT test with regards to ABS is to remove the entire system. If there is no ABS fitted, then it can't fail the MOT on defective ABS.
I can also confirm that the pre'98 classic Imprezas can stop in snow/ice better/easier/more controllably with the ABS disabled, that is if your used to driving non-abs cars in the snow (otherwise, forget it - stay at home!
). Its the only ABS equipped car I have ever driven that has had this problem.This is the 3 channel ABS cars though (pre 1998); I think its something to do with it having a spazzy fit should one of the rear wheels briefly lock, which somehow results in the removal of all braking effort front and rear. A similar issue occurs in normal weather if one inadvertently fits front brake pads using a compound that doesn't behave like that of the rear pads (i.e different brands/compounds front to rear). Or if the car is fitted with inferior rear tyres in comparison to the fronts. Just one never realises there is a problem until they are doing a proper emergency stop, and often puts it down to the road surface at fault and not the car.
Last edited by ALi-B; 02 February 2009 at 06:23 PM.
02 February 2009, 07:42 PM
#23
I disabled the abs on my hawkeye and i must say it stops so much better as all that was happening before was the abs was cutting in and no braking at all .
I don't have winter tyres so maybe it'd work ok if i did.
I don't have winter tyres so maybe it'd work ok if i did.
02 February 2009, 08:02 PM
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Hello bud, I have a STI Hawkeye is the ABS fuse easy to find?? may need disable the abs in the morning! had hardly any braking this morning
02 February 2009, 08:12 PM
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Hello bud, I have a STI Hawkeye is the ABS fuse easy to find?? may need disable the abs in the morning! had hardly any braking this morning
02 February 2009, 08:17 PM
#27
Its a 20amp fuse . once you've removed the tray read the back and it'll tell you which 1 it is
02 February 2009, 09:55 PM
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Stevo210,
Nothing to do with nearly 400 lb.ft. of torque then ?
LOL
dunx
P.S. I borrowed "her" Jeep today, sideways past the numpties doing 12 mph was ace !
Nothing to do with nearly 400 lb.ft. of torque then ?
LOL
dunx
P.S. I borrowed "her" Jeep today, sideways past the numpties doing 12 mph was ace !
02 February 2009, 10:17 PM
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Car ice skating anyone???? I couldnt stand on this car park earlier.
YouTube - How not to drift on ice in a saxo.
He broke his rear axle and buckled the front rim
YouTube - How not to drift on ice in a saxo.
He broke his rear axle and buckled the front rim
Last edited by mbayley77; 02 February 2009 at 10:21 PM.
02 February 2009, 11:21 PM
#30
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yep, managed a 180, at 5mph at most the road wasnt much wider than the width of the car with a 6 foot stone wall down one side and a narrow pavement and house on the other, felt like slow motion . still cant believe i didnt even clip the cerb,
i wont be going that way to work tommorow morning
anyone from fife here might know the bit of road, its going into markinch round some 90* corners then a fairly tight left down a small hill, it was on the small hill part
the road wasnt much wider than the width of the car with a 6 foot stone wall down one side and a narrow pavement and house on the other, felt like slow motion . still cant believe i didnt even clip the cerb, i wont be going that way to work tommorow morning
anyone from fife here might know the bit of road, its going into markinch round some 90* corners then a fairly tight left down a small hill, it was on the small hill part