Understeer/Oversteer - How does MY04 STi Type Uk Behave
21 July 2004, 12:23 PM
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Understeer/Oversteer - How does MY04 STi Type Uk Behave
Help/guidance please guys for a novice,
I have done some research and understand understeer/oversteer in the context of fwd and rwd cars.
I have seen on various threads that scoobs typically have understeer.
When driving my MY04 STi type UK (standard except for PPP) the car does not seem to exhibit any loss of traction and clearly on UK roads there is only so far I can take it. The most I have observed is the rear going light on loose gravel but at no point has the car ever really got away.
Questions:
1) Does this car ever break away when driven hard but safely on normal dry/wet roads (all subjective I know).
2) If it does break away how does it go, undesteer or oversteeer and how do you correct with such an AWD car?
Please bear with me if the questions seem naive - but without track experience (to be corrected by November) I am seeking your views on how the STi behaves.
I have done some research and understand understeer/oversteer in the context of fwd and rwd cars.
I have seen on various threads that scoobs typically have understeer.
When driving my MY04 STi type UK (standard except for PPP) the car does not seem to exhibit any loss of traction and clearly on UK roads there is only so far I can take it. The most I have observed is the rear going light on loose gravel but at no point has the car ever really got away.
Questions:
1) Does this car ever break away when driven hard but safely on normal dry/wet roads (all subjective I know).
2) If it does break away how does it go, undesteer or oversteeer and how do you correct with such an AWD car?
Please bear with me if the questions seem naive - but without track experience (to be corrected by November) I am seeking your views on how the STi behaves.
21 July 2004, 01:47 PM
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First of all, I wont be able to be accurate because I havent driven a type UK. But sounds like your question is wether your car will oversteer or understeer at the limit.
Most of the time, it well depends on whats happening during your driving and road conditions. For example, in a manicly understeering fwd car at the limit, you can cause oversteer by simply lifting off a throttle mid corner, and weight is shifted to the front of the car. So manic understeer at the limit can suddenly become oversteer.
So to get to your questions...
1. On constant throttle at the limit, usually WRX's tend to understeer (might be diff for STI type UK). So the slow in quick out approach will aid better. Late braking can promote oversteer however, I think some folks call it trail braking, and a sudden shift to throttle can switch that to understeer, so a smooth transition is beneficial to control. So yes, all cars WILL lose traction at some point, even the almighty WRX. Although the limit is incredible and most of the time, the speed required makes it extremely dangerous when it does and you arent skilled or prepared for it.
2. This here is best answered by Simon or N1 or some of the other gurus here. However, I found with the WRX's are very predictable in the dry or good smooth bitumen, smooth inputs and gentle movements. But it all goes pear shaped in the wet. Typically one method is to gently ease off the throttle with gentle inputs of the steering provided you have enough room left to move at the limit. Hence skilled drivers feel safer in an oversteering vehicle than one that understeers on throttle, like the stock WRX's we get here.
Typically though, the natural reaction to an unskilled driver (ahem, me!) is to slam the brakes out of intimidation when the gas cause manic understeer breakaway in the wet, this suddenly causes the rear to come round, fishtailing. But a skilled driver will fair quite well in a WRX as they are superbly balanced cars in the right hands, just that mine arent the right hands
Simply a sensational car to watch a professional drive, shifting fro under to over. Simply brilliant !!!
Most of the time, it well depends on whats happening during your driving and road conditions. For example, in a manicly understeering fwd car at the limit, you can cause oversteer by simply lifting off a throttle mid corner, and weight is shifted to the front of the car. So manic understeer at the limit can suddenly become oversteer.
So to get to your questions...
1. On constant throttle at the limit, usually WRX's tend to understeer (might be diff for STI type UK). So the slow in quick out approach will aid better. Late braking can promote oversteer however, I think some folks call it trail braking, and a sudden shift to throttle can switch that to understeer, so a smooth transition is beneficial to control. So yes, all cars WILL lose traction at some point, even the almighty WRX. Although the limit is incredible and most of the time, the speed required makes it extremely dangerous when it does and you arent skilled or prepared for it.
2. This here is best answered by Simon or N1 or some of the other gurus here. However, I found with the WRX's are very predictable in the dry or good smooth bitumen, smooth inputs and gentle movements. But it all goes pear shaped in the wet. Typically one method is to gently ease off the throttle with gentle inputs of the steering provided you have enough room left to move at the limit. Hence skilled drivers feel safer in an oversteering vehicle than one that understeers on throttle, like the stock WRX's we get here.
Typically though, the natural reaction to an unskilled driver (ahem, me!) is to slam the brakes out of intimidation when the gas cause manic understeer breakaway in the wet, this suddenly causes the rear to come round, fishtailing. But a skilled driver will fair quite well in a WRX as they are superbly balanced cars in the right hands, just that mine arent the right hands
Simply a sensational car to watch a professional drive, shifting fro under to over. Simply brilliant !!!
Last edited by prana; 21 July 2004 at 01:59 PM.
21 July 2004, 08:49 PM
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Prana,
thanks for the considered reply. So it appears that reaching the limit on normal roads in a Scoob under normal conditions is not very common and could well lead to extreme consequences due to the high speeds required. Does this mean that all the driving magazines that talk about cornering control and feel really only applies to well balanced fwd or rwd cars - and the Scoobys, Evos etc just stick where you point them?onder2:
Does it also mean that the numerous contributors on Scoobynet that talk about WRX/STi comming with understeer as standard (which is then dialled out with suspension mods) are getting their experience mainly on the track?
It would be good to get a range of other views as to whether experiences of understeer (or even oversteer) have been experienced by others under road use - maybe the classics have more tendency to do so?
In my own case getting round corners quickly entails fast approach, early braking, off the brakes as I go into the corner and then smooth but rapid power round the corner, both hands on the wheel to control the front end getting away under the torque surge. I also try to hook the inside wheels as close to the edge of the corner as I can - in the vainglorious hope that this is rally style, but in reality to make sure I do not get clobbered by the middle road dreamers that litter the N Yorks B roads.
Your point about trail braking oversteer is interesting as this is maybe what I felt last weekend going into a right hand bend on a gravel covered farm road -here I brake much later than normal (good run off, good sighting, no other cars) and the back end does seem to draft around slightly under power. Whatever - I am pretty new to the theory - all I know is that I most certainly do not get understeer.
Any other contributions greatly welcomed.
thanks for the considered reply. So it appears that reaching the limit on normal roads in a Scoob under normal conditions is not very common and could well lead to extreme consequences due to the high speeds required. Does this mean that all the driving magazines that talk about cornering control and feel really only applies to well balanced fwd or rwd cars - and the Scoobys, Evos etc just stick where you point them?
onder2: Does it also mean that the numerous contributors on Scoobynet that talk about WRX/STi comming with understeer as standard (which is then dialled out with suspension mods) are getting their experience mainly on the track?
It would be good to get a range of other views as to whether experiences of understeer (or even oversteer) have been experienced by others under road use - maybe the classics have more tendency to do so?
In my own case getting round corners quickly entails fast approach, early braking, off the brakes as I go into the corner and then smooth but rapid power round the corner, both hands on the wheel to control the front end getting away under the torque surge. I also try to hook the inside wheels as close to the edge of the corner as I can - in the vainglorious hope that this is rally style, but in reality to make sure I do not get clobbered by the middle road dreamers that litter the N Yorks B roads.
Your point about trail braking oversteer is interesting as this is maybe what I felt last weekend going into a right hand bend on a gravel covered farm road -here I brake much later than normal (good run off, good sighting, no other cars) and the back end does seem to draft around slightly under power. Whatever - I am pretty new to the theory - all I know is that I most certainly do not get understeer.
Any other contributions greatly welcomed.
21 July 2004, 11:16 PM
#4
Haven't driven the latest Uk Sti yet.
Hopefully my reply to the other thread will help.
I can't stress enough how much types of tyres and pressures seem to effect a cars handling. And as discussed before on here it is a bit of a dark art, trial and error type thing.
Best wishes
Steve
Hopefully my reply to the other thread will help.
I can't stress enough how much types of tyres and pressures seem to effect a cars handling. And as discussed before on here it is a bit of a dark art, trial and error type thing.
Best wishes
Steve
Last edited by Steve Whitehorn; 22 July 2004 at 09:24 PM.
22 July 2004, 04:17 PM
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In my experience the Scoob (UK MY99 - Toyos and Bumpsteer) was pretty easy to push past the grip limits on the road especially in the wet without really taking risks.
This isn't EVO-type welsh A-road stuff, just greasy roundabouts and tight but good visibility bends in and around Amsterdam.
Understeer would happen in the wet with just a little to much entry speed, or a ham fisted application of throttle before the apex.
Just want to stress this was probably happening at 30/40 miles an hour not 100, and with no chance of actually losing genuine control and over a period of month or so learning the car.
The slight-oversteer/drift thing was worth getting the hang of - just squeeze the throttle on exiting the bend, give it some more boot as the understeer starts and the diff neatly moves the power back for a slightly angled exit. Nearly no lock required.
Another reason to practise the above is to break the instinct to back off to combat serious understeer as might happen if you fail to anticipate a tightening bend or need to take evasive action.
Do this in a Scoob and you'll probably spin/fishtail - keep calm with the throttle and steering and the 4wd will (probably) get you through unscathed!
The Scoob would also get very twitchy under trailbraking as the other guys have said - again not at crazy levels of decelleration or speed.
I reckon you need to practise carefully and give it a tiny little more entry speed or exit throttle each time on a bend/roundabout and you'll soon start to feel a loss of traction from one end or the other soon enough without taking big risks.
Take care!
This isn't EVO-type welsh A-road stuff, just greasy roundabouts and tight but good visibility bends in and around Amsterdam.
Understeer would happen in the wet with just a little to much entry speed, or a ham fisted application of throttle before the apex.
Just want to stress this was probably happening at 30/40 miles an hour not 100, and with no chance of actually losing genuine control and over a period of month or so learning the car.
The slight-oversteer/drift thing was worth getting the hang of - just squeeze the throttle on exiting the bend, give it some more boot as the understeer starts and the diff neatly moves the power back for a slightly angled exit. Nearly no lock required.
Another reason to practise the above is to break the instinct to back off to combat serious understeer as might happen if you fail to anticipate a tightening bend or need to take evasive action.
Do this in a Scoob and you'll probably spin/fishtail - keep calm with the throttle and steering and the 4wd will (probably) get you through unscathed!
The Scoob would also get very twitchy under trailbraking as the other guys have said - again not at crazy levels of decelleration or speed.
I reckon you need to practise carefully and give it a tiny little more entry speed or exit throttle each time on a bend/roundabout and you'll soon start to feel a loss of traction from one end or the other soon enough without taking big risks.
Take care!
29 August 2004, 11:47 PM
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Redman, you'll probably find that the Sti behaves rather differently to the WRX or turbo due to the additional front differential. In fact, I've heard from owners that if you really give an Sti the full monty in a corner it understeers, then- if you don't lift and just aim for where you want to go- the car seems to pivot around its centre and then drag itself out of the drift.
It's probably easier to get the back out on a 4wd drive car on a trailing throttle with a sudden steering input rather than booting it at the apex of a corner, as the 4WD is intended to help you put the power down or understeer to warn you that you're about to have an argument with the scenery :-) If you do get into a slide, I believe the trick with a 4wd car is not to panic and come off the power quickly and apply masses of opposite lock, you have to point the wheels where you want to go and modulate the throttle to allow the 4wd to regain purchase on the road, then power you're way out of the slide.
I'd recommend NOT trying drifting etc on the road though! You'll find that the Sti has more than enough grip for fast road driving and you have to do something pretty extreme to upset it! :-) When I had a go of one, it just went where I pointed it.
Best.
It's probably easier to get the back out on a 4wd drive car on a trailing throttle with a sudden steering input rather than booting it at the apex of a corner, as the 4WD is intended to help you put the power down or understeer to warn you that you're about to have an argument with the scenery :-) If you do get into a slide, I believe the trick with a 4wd car is not to panic and come off the power quickly and apply masses of opposite lock, you have to point the wheels where you want to go and modulate the throttle to allow the 4wd to regain purchase on the road, then power you're way out of the slide.
I'd recommend NOT trying drifting etc on the road though! You'll find that the Sti has more than enough grip for fast road driving and you have to do something pretty extreme to upset it! :-) When I had a go of one, it just went where I pointed it.
Best.
30 August 2004, 11:49 AM
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I have found the old shape easier to drift than the sti type Uk. I have limited experience in the type uk (non PPP) but from wet road driving it seems the front really wants to pull itself towards the inside of a corner under power, completely the opposite to the non fancy diff old shape cars! I found that it shifted towards oversteer very quickly and if you have your foot planted in the sti with opposite lock on then it drags itself out very quickly and can easily cause a fishtail. I think half throttle drifts are possible in this car.
I did however find the speeds required to do this were a bit daft and I would want to do a few track days especially in the wet to get to know what it does at or past the limit.
I sold the Sti and stuck with an old shape after just a couple of months. I didn't feel any additional benefit from the newer sti for at the limit control or feel.
Basically then to sum up, the STi will understeer or oversteer or 4 wheel drift depending on how you set it up into the corner and what you do with the steering and throttle. Please note that these cars weigh the best part of 1.5 tons and when they let go there is a lot of mass trying to pull you off the road. You can't really muck about in them like you could say an Elise that weighs half as much.
Off to the track for practice! That is the only way to learn.
I did however find the speeds required to do this were a bit daft and I would want to do a few track days especially in the wet to get to know what it does at or past the limit.
I sold the Sti and stuck with an old shape after just a couple of months. I didn't feel any additional benefit from the newer sti for at the limit control or feel.
Basically then to sum up, the STi will understeer or oversteer or 4 wheel drift depending on how you set it up into the corner and what you do with the steering and throttle. Please note that these cars weigh the best part of 1.5 tons and when they let go there is a lot of mass trying to pull you off the road. You can't really muck about in them like you could say an Elise that weighs half as much.
Off to the track for practice! That is the only way to learn.
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31 August 2004, 06:27 AM
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Hi guys, thanks for the recent posts, which are very timely given that I have my first ever track day (at Croft) this wekend. Hopefully this will give me a chance to test the limit handling of the STi, armed with the feedback from this thread and others on SN. Ironically I am hoping for rain - but looks like it will be dry!
About a month ago had a fast trip up into the N Yorks moors - including some forest road sections. Here it was possible to get the car to loose grip on the gravel at much more sensible speeds, 30 to 40 mph, though the run off looks to be a bit unyielding (fancy having trees in a forest ). This was the first time I have felt the car go light front and rear, and it was quite a sensation to be sliding around the corners - I managed to keep the car in shape but not certain how, things happen very quickly - certainly quite a lot of steering input and I managed to keep some throttle on. Hopefuly this weekend at Croft I will get the chance to learn some more. I also have a tuition day at Castle Coombe in November. As you can see I am keen to get to grips with the car and driving skills in general.
Once again thanks for the posts, which are very helpful - and strike a resonance with what I have experienced with the car so far.
Red Man
About a month ago had a fast trip up into the N Yorks moors - including some forest road sections. Here it was possible to get the car to loose grip on the gravel at much more sensible speeds, 30 to 40 mph, though the run off looks to be a bit unyielding (fancy having trees in a forest
). This was the first time I have felt the car go light front and rear, and it was quite a sensation to be sliding around the corners - I managed to keep the car in shape but not certain how, things happen very quickly - certainly quite a lot of steering input and I managed to keep some throttle on. Hopefuly this weekend at Croft I will get the chance to learn some more. I also have a tuition day at Castle Coombe in November. As you can see I am keen to get to grips with the car and driving skills in general. Once again thanks for the posts, which are very helpful - and strike a resonance with what I have experienced with the car so far.
Red Man
20 January 2006, 12:45 PM
#9
I have an MY05 STi with PPP and I must admit that in the dry on normal roads you have to drive like a complete lunatic for the car to loose traction. In the wet or on loose surfaces however it is a different beast ... the back end will step out under moderate to hard acceleration out of a corner (even with the DCCD in Auto). As long as you are smooth on the throttle, this can be easily controlled due the low centre of gravity and excellent balance of the Impreza ... and great fun too.
26 January 2006, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by New_scooby_04
Redman, you'll probably find that the Sti behaves rather differently to the WRX or turbo due to the additional front differential. In fact, I've heard from owners that if you really give an Sti the full monty in a corner it understeers, then- if you don't lift and just aim for where you want to go- the car seems to pivot around its centre and then drag itself out of the drift.
Some people have never driven the suretracked sti's like this and complain of poor handling, but with some good driver training I'm sure these people would learn alot. I did
dipster.
28 January 2006, 04:52 PM
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I can see familiarities here between the Carrerra 4 and the STi.
I have an 03 WRX (my first 4wd car) and I find that powering through corners will mostly run the car wide (understeer). On some occasions the car has pushed the back out more - I think maybe something to do with the road conditions during those times.
So, back to my first sentence. I found that driving, and being driven, in my friend's 996 C4, that when you powered into a corner it would actually drag you towards the apex! A great sensation and confidence builder. I thought all 4wd cars did this but not so in the WRX.
I have an 03 WRX (my first 4wd car) and I find that powering through corners will mostly run the car wide (understeer). On some occasions the car has pushed the back out more - I think maybe something to do with the road conditions during those times.
So, back to my first sentence. I found that driving, and being driven, in my friend's 996 C4, that when you powered into a corner it would actually drag you towards the apex! A great sensation and confidence builder. I thought all 4wd cars did this but not so in the WRX.
30 January 2006, 07:28 AM
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It is interesting to see a thread I started being resurrected after over 18 months. Gives me a chance to reflect on what I have learnt.
I still have the STi and the only modification (on top of the PPP) has been to get the tracking adjusted to the Prodrive settings. As I posted at the time this has had a dramatic effect on the handling, the normal tendenc y of the car to understeer has been eliminated and the only time it will wash wide is if you exceed normal traction (or don't concentrate). The car tucks into the corner tightly and as you apply power out of the corner it hugs the bend - it feels so much more connected.
There is a downside, however. Whilst the car is much more responsive on the steering, for example overtake and cut back in is so much swifter, the car is much more "twitchy" to road conditions, i.e. you need to concentrate on steering and make small adjustments all the time. Changes in road surface, camber, bumps and holes etc require you to directly control the car, whereas beforehand it tended to be far more neutral. I can imagine if you do a lot of regular miles on b roads this could become tiring.
Finally I am bemused by Dipsters comments that if you keep your foot in magic things start to happen - I presume you mean the understeer is corrected. All I can say is that I have tried this at Croft track day, specifically the Hawthorn complex (dry warm conditions) and all it did was make the car drift wider. So any discusion on this would help educate me, especially as I have another track day in July (I am not crazy enough to try this on public roads).
Dave
I still have the STi and the only modification (on top of the PPP) has been to get the tracking adjusted to the Prodrive settings. As I posted at the time this has had a dramatic effect on the handling, the normal tendenc y of the car to understeer has been eliminated and the only time it will wash wide is if you exceed normal traction (or don't concentrate). The car tucks into the corner tightly and as you apply power out of the corner it hugs the bend - it feels so much more connected.
There is a downside, however. Whilst the car is much more responsive on the steering, for example overtake and cut back in is so much swifter, the car is much more "twitchy" to road conditions, i.e. you need to concentrate on steering and make small adjustments all the time. Changes in road surface, camber, bumps and holes etc require you to directly control the car, whereas beforehand it tended to be far more neutral. I can imagine if you do a lot of regular miles on b roads this could become tiring.
Finally I am bemused by Dipsters comments that if you keep your foot in magic things start to happen - I presume you mean the understeer is corrected. All I can say is that I have tried this at Croft track day, specifically the Hawthorn complex (dry warm conditions) and all it did was make the car drift wider. So any discusion on this would help educate me, especially as I have another track day in July (I am not crazy enough to try this on public roads).
Dave
31 January 2006, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Red Man
Finally I am bemused by Dipsters comments that if you keep your foot in magic things start to happen - I presume you mean the understeer is corrected. All I can say is that I have tried this at Croft track day, specifically the Hawthorn complex (dry warm conditions) and all it did was make the car drift wider. So any discusion on this would help educate me, especially as I have another track day in July (I am not crazy enough to try this on public roads).
Dave
Dave
You need to ensure you are not confused between grip (first example) and traction (second)
Also need to remember that all this slow in fast out stuff with 4x4 is courtesy of the diffs (3 on the STI) but for them to work you need torque eg revs. Go into a corner at speed, at low revs, and the car will suddenly lose it magic like traction
15 February 2006, 06:18 PM
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Very interesting read - I was about to post a question about diffs etc etc on the classic...
I have an Sti V5 and it seems that in any greasy road conditions or damp roads it will quite happily oversteer with a dab of the throttle on the way out of bends.
I had quite a large sideways moment coming off a roundabout the other day in the wet although a slight lift of the accelerator (not all the way) and a little opposite lock got me straight again. I was doing about 40 mph when it started to slide, maybe 2nd/ 3rd gear. Another slide was on the way out or the local tip where the road was quite greasy - more low speed tho.
My car is running 18" wheels with the new toyo's on and had the 4 wheel alignment to prodrive settings...
I now get the feeling that it likes to oversteer more readily out of the corner although it can understeer into the corner but only if I overcook it. I'm also more often than not trailbraking as this just seems to fit how I drive more than any great skill...it may be that I'm much more used to the handling of the car than anything else so am learning how to drive it better. At least the slides don;t panic me as much as they used to lol.
Anyone with an explanation as to why this may be the case would be brilliant....I'll assume for now that it's simply the power being sent to the rear wheels via the diffs but how exactly is slightly beyond my current understanding.
I have an Sti V5 and it seems that in any greasy road conditions or damp roads it will quite happily oversteer with a dab of the throttle on the way out of bends.
I had quite a large sideways moment coming off a roundabout the other day in the wet although a slight lift of the accelerator (not all the way) and a little opposite lock got me straight again. I was doing about 40 mph when it started to slide, maybe 2nd/ 3rd gear. Another slide was on the way out or the local tip where the road was quite greasy - more low speed tho.
My car is running 18" wheels with the new toyo's on and had the 4 wheel alignment to prodrive settings...
I now get the feeling that it likes to oversteer more readily out of the corner although it can understeer into the corner but only if I overcook it. I'm also more often than not trailbraking as this just seems to fit how I drive more than any great skill...it may be that I'm much more used to the handling of the car than anything else so am learning how to drive it better. At least the slides don;t panic me as much as they used to lol.
Anyone with an explanation as to why this may be the case would be brilliant....I'll assume for now that it's simply the power being sent to the rear wheels via the diffs but how exactly is slightly beyond my current understanding.
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