Is Dawes over rated!!!
14 March 2002, 07:46 PM
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I've been reading the posts regarding the Dawes device with some amusement. The way I see it is this. Subaru have a massive R&D department who have decided that the best way to control boost under all conditions is via the solenoid, a MAP sensor and a pressure differential device. I dare say an awful lot of research was done on this method of controoling boost. Are people seriously saying that a crude device like a Dawes is better??
[Edited by Jim Dunleavy - 3/14/2002 7:46:49 PM]
[Edited by Jim Dunleavy - 3/14/2002 7:46:49 PM]
14 March 2002, 08:18 PM
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What does "better" mean? If you mean the complexity of the method, the part throttle behaviour or the lack of ability of the ECU to lower boost in response to knock or a check engine condition then no it is not better. If you mean a cheap, effective, fairly tightly controlled method of producing more boost than Subaru intended in relative safety subject to an understanding of its limitations then what are you comparing it to?
Do you have a better suggestion for the price and ease of setup? If so please tell us. Boost is more consistent on my car with a Dawes than it was ever with the standard ECU or a Prodrive ECU.
Will you also argue that Subaru suspension geometry, brake discs, pads, brake lines, OEM tyres, downpipe design, gearbox integrity, clutch judder and the factory stereo are also worth all this massive R&D
Keep your car standard if you like, but the aftermarket has a huge amount to offer, and a Dawes has a strong position in balance with other sensibly used modifications.
[Edited by john banks - 3/14/2002 8:22:02 PM]
Do you have a better suggestion for the price and ease of setup? If so please tell us. Boost is more consistent on my car with a Dawes than it was ever with the standard ECU or a Prodrive ECU.
Will you also argue that Subaru suspension geometry, brake discs, pads, brake lines, OEM tyres, downpipe design, gearbox integrity, clutch judder and the factory stereo are also worth all this massive R&D
Keep your car standard if you like, but the aftermarket has a huge amount to offer, and a Dawes has a strong position in balance with other sensibly used modifications.[Edited by john banks - 3/14/2002 8:22:02 PM]
14 March 2002, 10:33 PM
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Other than the Bumpstear mod. Which must be the best mod you can make .The Dawes will find a place in Scooby history. Think how simple the Bumpstear mod is???? Good things dont have to cost a lot of money!!
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15 March 2002, 08:27 AM
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Calm down a bit guys - he only asked!!! 
Jim, John's right, he explained it pretty well. Thing you've gotta remember is, by and large Subaru (and probably other car manufacturers) have made a car which will work well in a multitude of different environments, on varying quality of fuel, with the minimum of fuss and with a huge safety margin (to minimise warranty calims).
Now most of us on here, mod our cars - to one degree of another. We take advantage of this huge safety margin and eat into it a bit with the mods that we do. The standard boost control is not that great, even with a standard car, but when you start changing the Exhaust/Induction, it doesn't cope that well with the changes. So generally, at some point or another, when you're trying to squeeze some extra power out of your car (most people do ), you need to address the standard crappy boost control.
The Dawes has become so popular because a) it's extremely cheap b) is really easy to fit c) is easy to get more power torque and therefore drivability out of the car within the standard ECU's fuel cut limit. Basically, as long as you're not an idiot (don't wind the boost up too much), have a boost gauge (and ideally AFR monitoring too), it's a safe, easy, cheap mod that gives good results.
Matt
Jim, John's right, he explained it pretty well. Thing you've gotta remember is, by and large Subaru (and probably other car manufacturers) have made a car which will work well in a multitude of different environments, on varying quality of fuel, with the minimum of fuss and with a huge safety margin (to minimise warranty calims).
Now most of us on here, mod our cars - to one degree of another. We take advantage of this huge safety margin and eat into it a bit with the mods that we do. The standard boost control is not that great, even with a standard car, but when you start changing the Exhaust/Induction, it doesn't cope that well with the changes. So generally, at some point or another, when you're trying to squeeze some extra power out of your car (most people do
), you need to address the standard crappy boost control.The Dawes has become so popular because a) it's extremely cheap b) is really easy to fit c) is easy to get more power torque and therefore drivability out of the car within the standard ECU's fuel cut limit. Basically, as long as you're not an idiot (don't wind the boost up too much), have a boost gauge (and ideally AFR monitoring too), it's a safe, easy, cheap mod that gives good results.
Matt
15 March 2002, 11:07 AM
#12
R&D for successful companies is tightly controlled by bean counters.
Subaru R&D will have known how many beans they had and knew their end of date printed on them.
What came out of development was an excellent package, but one that has been improved by smaller companies along the line who have further piles of beans to throw at R&D, hence the wonderful world of modding your car.
Subaru R&D will have known how many beans they had and knew their end of date printed on them.
What came out of development was an excellent package, but one that has been improved by smaller companies along the line who have further piles of beans to throw at R&D, hence the wonderful world of modding your car.
15 March 2002, 12:59 PM
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Scott T,
what boost is your car running/MY?,I was never impressed with PPP cars,both with and without decat down pipes,until I drove john banks car. on track a few of these cars could not out drag my car up the straights(decatted MY00),these cars were running roughly the same boost as my car.john's car against mine was just playing with me.I was at full throttle and his car could drop back then come up within a foot of my bumper and then drop back and do it again.
since driving his car I have got a Dawes and had tried to get a PPP ECU,as when running a standard turbo and top mount,I do not think even a mappable ECU would offer any more gains than his set-up.
what boost is your car running/MY?,I was never impressed with PPP cars,both with and without decat down pipes,until I drove john banks car. on track a few of these cars could not out drag my car up the straights(decatted MY00),these cars were running roughly the same boost as my car.john's car against mine was just playing with me.I was at full throttle and his car could drop back then come up within a foot of my bumper and then drop back and do it again.
since driving his car I have got a Dawes and had tried to get a PPP ECU,as when running a standard turbo and top mount,I do not think even a mappable ECU would offer any more gains than his set-up.
15 March 2002, 01:08 PM
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On a MY99/00 (+-PPP) it is in a different class to a bleed valve as you can actually raise held boost with the Dawes, which you cannot do with the factory boost controller connected on late models. And if you replace the solenoid with a valve the spool up is slower than the Dawes unless you have the valve wide open and run really high boost - then you don't get much wastegate creep 
One French contact was running >1.4bar on a late car and thinks the Dawes is no quicker - I believe him - he probably had no wastegate creep because his bleed type MBC was almost wide open (he had the FBC disconnected I think).
[Edited by john banks - 3/15/2002 1:10:20 PM]
One French contact was running >1.4bar on a late car and thinks the Dawes is no quicker - I believe him - he probably had no wastegate creep because his bleed type MBC was almost wide open (he had the FBC disconnected I think).[Edited by john banks - 3/15/2002 1:10:20 PM]
15 March 2002, 05:56 PM
#18
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The Subaru method using Duty Solenoid, MAP sensor et al actually allows the ECU to vary the boost according to differing barometric pressure. Under the Duty soloenoid is an 3 way valve (the switching valve), which switches between barometric pressure (i.e open air!), maniold pressure & wastegate line pressure. This is why if you ever look at a Select Monitor, you see a Barometric pressure reading.
The Dawes (although very effective) cannot compensate for differing baro pressure, this *could* affect users who live on top of a mountain and set the boost to below fuel cut, then drive down to sea level and the car would overboost every time! Or even just ambient temp, eg cold day - hot day.
As somebody said, Subaru have to make the car safe in MANY different operating conditions worldwide.
The Dawes (although very effective) cannot compensate for differing baro pressure, this *could* affect users who live on top of a mountain and set the boost to below fuel cut, then drive down to sea level and the car would overboost every time! Or even just ambient temp, eg cold day - hot day.
As somebody said, Subaru have to make the car safe in MANY different operating conditions worldwide.
15 March 2002, 06:02 PM
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As per my previous post discussing the above issue on I-club, all aftermarket EBCs and things like the Link ECU are similarly afflicted. Some of the US guys say that when they go to high altitude with the standard setup, the ECU actually does not drop the boost and continues to aim for the same manifold pressure up to 5000ft after which it can't manage, which puzzled me given that the MY00 and before has the pressure sources solenoid control valve and the MY01 has a barometric pressure sensor at the ECU.
What you need is a controller which aims for a set pressure increase above atmospheric pressure.
What you need is a controller which aims for a set pressure increase above atmospheric pressure.
15 March 2002, 07:43 PM
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The Link does indeed set it's boost targets in KPas and so is an absolute target, not relative.
Bollox - will have to drive really slowly when I am up the top of Mont Fort!
Trout
Bollox - will have to drive really slowly when I am up the top of Mont Fort!
Trout
15 March 2002, 09:54 PM
#22
T-UK.....
I have an MY94 PPP with a TD05.
Prior to the PPP and the Dawes, I was running approx 15psi with a Bleed Valve. I had this for about 6 months with no problems and at no time did it hit the fuel cut.
I then purchased the Dawes (for those that know, I was one of the 1st and posted my instructions for pre'96 cars on the BBS.)
After about 2 weeks took the Dawes off and returned back to the Bleed Valve, as the Dawes seemed to give no real gain, but removed the ECU control of the Boost Control Solenoid, which I preferred to keep with the Bleed Valve Set-up.
Since fitting the PPP ECU I have removed/closed the Bleed Valve and am running a standard PPP set-up with the PPP ECU, Prodrive BB and ITG Filter.
IMHO this feels as quick as it did running 15psi and alot stronger both low down and beyond 5,500rpm, although it is only running 14psi max with the PPP. All down to the improved timing and fueling of the PPP.
It may be that later TD04 cars respond better than the TD05's to a Dawes. And earlt Pre96 cars respond better to a PPP.
Alot of people 'I think' are impressed with the Dawes beacuse they were previously running standard boost. So any increase is gonna put a smile on their face.
For the money it's a good bit of kit, and for your info my Dawes is now on a mates Volvo T4, helping him to Boost at 15psi.
I have an MY94 PPP with a TD05.
Prior to the PPP and the Dawes, I was running approx 15psi with a Bleed Valve. I had this for about 6 months with no problems and at no time did it hit the fuel cut.
I then purchased the Dawes (for those that know, I was one of the 1st and posted my instructions for pre'96 cars on the BBS.)
After about 2 weeks took the Dawes off and returned back to the Bleed Valve, as the Dawes seemed to give no real gain, but removed the ECU control of the Boost Control Solenoid, which I preferred to keep with the Bleed Valve Set-up.
Since fitting the PPP ECU I have removed/closed the Bleed Valve and am running a standard PPP set-up with the PPP ECU, Prodrive BB and ITG Filter.
IMHO this feels as quick as it did running 15psi and alot stronger both low down and beyond 5,500rpm, although it is only running 14psi max with the PPP. All down to the improved timing and fueling of the PPP.
It may be that later TD04 cars respond better than the TD05's to a Dawes. And earlt Pre96 cars respond better to a PPP.
Alot of people 'I think' are impressed with the Dawes beacuse they were previously running standard boost. So any increase is gonna put a smile on their face.
For the money it's a good bit of kit, and for your info my Dawes is now on a mates Volvo T4, helping him to Boost at 15psi.
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