GEMS ECU upgrade
05 March 2002, 05:11 PM
#2
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I 've heard of a ps-8 who has: traction control-antilag and so many other features.Motech is very good as well but more expensive,dont know much about Gems apart from(got an antilag feature)..
05 March 2002, 05:45 PM
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Foz,
If u can define "the best" it`d b easier 2 narrow down what would be "the best" for u
What are u r working parameters? Cost ? removability ? features etc ?
Pete
If u can define "the best" it`d b easier 2 narrow down what would be "the best" for u
What are u r working parameters? Cost ? removability ? features etc ?Pete
05 March 2002, 05:58 PM
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OK …I have an STiV which is suffering with UK fuel….even Optimax. I have tried octane booster but still get KNOCK at 7000 + rpm and high speed motorway driving in 5th.
I recon the best way to solve the problem is to re-map for UK fuel or get another ECU. The thought of the management system working from a probe out of the IC instead of the MAF is very attractive.
I am running 1.1 Bar, Grp N exhaust and K&N panel filter.
I would be grateful of any advice.
Cheers
Julian
I recon the best way to solve the problem is to re-map for UK fuel or get another ECU. The thought of the management system working from a probe out of the IC instead of the MAF is very attractive.
I am running 1.1 Bar, Grp N exhaust and K&N panel filter.
I would be grateful of any advice.
Cheers
Julian
05 March 2002, 10:13 PM
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Yeah ... I have been thinking about the LINK it is very popular and there is a long waiting list to get it done at the the most reputable tuners. ( 3.5 months !!). I would like to hear from anyone with this on an STi ..... I am wondering if in retarding the igintion advance for UK fuel any recognisable performance increase was achieved
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06 March 2002, 11:05 AM
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retarding the ignition will lose you performance but reduce on set of det.
The link is a good option in that bob rawle is a good mapper. May be worth the wait.
The gems is to my knowledge a more capable unit but more expensive.
I think the motec is more difficult as the stepper motor idle control on your car makes it difficult to get a nice idle. I dont know how that affects the link and gems, you would have to ask bob about that.
Steve Simpson will be able to tell you about gems and its capabilities. It seems great but is a plug and play which although makes it cheaper, prevents it from being moved to other cars if you move on, unlike with the motec and pectel.
There is no best ecu. They can go up to 10s of thousands of pounds. There is likely to be a best compromise and for your purposes that will either be link or gems. I have knowledge of and faith in bobs ability, whereas steve simpson is yet to be proven to me so I cannot comment.
The gems is likely to grow in popularity and I am sure it will have a nice little following on this board, a few have already tried it, btu I dont know if I am allowed to let others know who they are.
Best bet would be to ring townend garage and ask them about it, regarding the link you would be better off speaking to bob rawle directly, as some aspects of his company may put you off buying from them.
The link is a good option in that bob rawle is a good mapper. May be worth the wait.
The gems is to my knowledge a more capable unit but more expensive.
I think the motec is more difficult as the stepper motor idle control on your car makes it difficult to get a nice idle. I dont know how that affects the link and gems, you would have to ask bob about that.
Steve Simpson will be able to tell you about gems and its capabilities. It seems great but is a plug and play which although makes it cheaper, prevents it from being moved to other cars if you move on, unlike with the motec and pectel.
There is no best ecu. They can go up to 10s of thousands of pounds. There is likely to be a best compromise and for your purposes that will either be link or gems. I have knowledge of and faith in bobs ability, whereas steve simpson is yet to be proven to me so I cannot comment.
The gems is likely to grow in popularity and I am sure it will have a nice little following on this board, a few have already tried it, btu I dont know if I am allowed to let others know who they are.
Best bet would be to ring townend garage and ask them about it, regarding the link you would be better off speaking to bob rawle directly, as some aspects of his company may put you off buying from them.
06 March 2002, 06:50 PM
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FOX,
fitting a Link on a standard car, even running the same boost may well not reduce your power. A major problem with the STI V - especially if you have improved the breathing is that is lean out, especially at around 7,000rpm causing det. In other areas it can be very rich.
Fitting a Link will resolve both of these problems and enable you to actually run more advance in certain areas.
I have had a Link on my car, and have been 'tuning' it for nearly two years and 30k miles. No problems in that time, on road or track and the car is fairly nippy.
It is a good solution with some small compromises - but they are in no way serious - it also works of the MAP sensor rather than the MAF and so that can be discarded.
I have no experience of Gems, so you will need to find someone with that on their car.
Trout
fitting a Link on a standard car, even running the same boost may well not reduce your power. A major problem with the STI V - especially if you have improved the breathing is that is lean out, especially at around 7,000rpm causing det. In other areas it can be very rich.
Fitting a Link will resolve both of these problems and enable you to actually run more advance in certain areas.
I have had a Link on my car, and have been 'tuning' it for nearly two years and 30k miles. No problems in that time, on road or track and the car is fairly nippy.
It is a good solution with some small compromises - but they are in no way serious - it also works of the MAP sensor rather than the MAF and so that can be discarded.
I have no experience of Gems, so you will need to find someone with that on their car.
Trout
07 March 2002, 03:26 PM
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Town End Garage fit the GEMS ECU's. I went in one of their Grp N cars with GEMS and it was extremely'swift'
As I understand it, the GEMS and Motec are very similar, but Motec is mapped in 50 rpm intervals whereas GEMS is in 100rpm intervals - hence a more accurate map can be obtained by Motec.
The GEMS has 2 switchable maps, so can be set up to run on SUL and UL in an 'emergency'. Motec doesn't have this feature, only 1 map is available.
GEMS have spent many years working with the Subaru WRC whereas Motec have worked with Mitsubishi (not that this makes any difference really as both appear to be very capable systems)
The last thing I have discovered is that GEMS is about £250 cheaper. Considering them both for road/trackday use, they both offer anti-lag and launch control - nice to talk about in pub I suppose, but how much use would they really be ???
These are some of the things I understand to be right - but I stand to be corrected....
As I understand it, the GEMS and Motec are very similar, but Motec is mapped in 50 rpm intervals whereas GEMS is in 100rpm intervals - hence a more accurate map can be obtained by Motec.
The GEMS has 2 switchable maps, so can be set up to run on SUL and UL in an 'emergency'. Motec doesn't have this feature, only 1 map is available.
GEMS have spent many years working with the Subaru WRC whereas Motec have worked with Mitsubishi (not that this makes any difference really as both appear to be very capable systems)
The last thing I have discovered is that GEMS is about £250 cheaper. Considering them both for road/trackday use, they both offer anti-lag and launch control - nice to talk about in pub I suppose, but how much use would they really be ???
These are some of the things I understand to be right - but I stand to be corrected....
07 March 2002, 06:03 PM
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As did I....
I thought the GEMS supplied, fitted and mapped was about £1500 and the Motec by itself is about £1600 isn't it? (plus the extra bits, fitting and mapping
)
Matt
I thought the GEMS supplied, fitted and mapped was about £1500 and the Motec by itself is about £1600 isn't it? (plus the extra bits, fitting and mapping
)Matt
07 March 2002, 07:33 PM
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Prices for GEMS as follows:
Up to MY96 (4 Plug ECU) £1495
MY97/98 (3 Plug ECU) £1395
MY99/00 (3 Large plugs)£1625
Above is fitted,mapped incl air temp sensor.
Up to 96 add £75 if you want more than 1.2 bar boost as std map sensor is 1.2 bar max.
MY99/00 is more as it includes Electronic centre diff control from throttle/footbrake/handbrake.
Steve S
Up to MY96 (4 Plug ECU) £1495
MY97/98 (3 Plug ECU) £1395
MY99/00 (3 Large plugs)£1625
Above is fitted,mapped incl air temp sensor.
Up to 96 add £75 if you want more than 1.2 bar boost as std map sensor is 1.2 bar max.
MY99/00 is more as it includes Electronic centre diff control from throttle/footbrake/handbrake.
Steve S
07 March 2002, 08:19 PM
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Hi Foz,
If you are around in the South East, come over to Maidenhead.
I'll data log your car and produce graphs of ignition timing, afr, knock and boost etc. You can then tell exactly what is wrong, and there may be a cheaper alternative fix. It would be good for me too, since I'd like to test the EcuTek Dash software I've written on as wide a variety of cars as possible before its release.
If you're up for it, let me know.
Cheers
Steve
If you are around in the South East, come over to Maidenhead.
I'll data log your car and produce graphs of ignition timing, afr, knock and boost etc. You can then tell exactly what is wrong, and there may be a cheaper alternative fix. It would be good for me too, since I'd like to test the EcuTek Dash software I've written on as wide a variety of cars as possible before its release.
If you're up for it, let me know.
Cheers
Steve
07 March 2002, 08:51 PM
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Steve ...
Thanks for the offer !! much appreciated I would love to let you datalog my car but you are quite some distance away. I am 99% sure that the problem is simply too much ignition advance. This is common on STi motors. As a result there are a number of options open to me. And also my MAF ... seems to be on the way out
too
Unichip - Good point mapping still uses dreaded MAF - £600 inc
Link - Good £1200 approx fitted and mapped with necessary 3 port boost solenoid for my motor, does away with MAF similar sensor grabbing to items below. Slightly less resolution with map points. Great value. BR are best to talk to for more accurate details.
GEMS - Good, v.good map points, nice options, more tricky to map due to lower level language but fast data processing. No need for MAF uses air inlet temp monitoring and MAP. 2 selectable boost maps ... and a couple of other goodies (Launch & centre diff control) mentioned earlier.
MOTEC - Good, again excellent map points easier to map due to higher level language and great software. A bit pricey
So you have to draw your own conclusions.
I do wish you were closer Steve..... thanks for the kind offer once again. Thanks to all those who have offered advice.
Julian
Thanks for the offer !! much appreciated I would love to let you datalog my car but you are quite some distance away. I am 99% sure that the problem is simply too much ignition advance. This is common on STi motors. As a result there are a number of options open to me. And also my MAF ... seems to be on the way out
tooUnichip - Good point mapping still uses dreaded MAF - £600 inc
Link - Good £1200 approx fitted and mapped with necessary 3 port boost solenoid for my motor, does away with MAF similar sensor grabbing to items below. Slightly less resolution with map points. Great value. BR are best to talk to for more accurate details.
GEMS - Good, v.good map points, nice options, more tricky to map due to lower level language but fast data processing. No need for MAF uses air inlet temp monitoring and MAP. 2 selectable boost maps ... and a couple of other goodies (Launch & centre diff control) mentioned earlier.
MOTEC - Good, again excellent map points easier to map due to higher level language and great software. A bit pricey
So you have to draw your own conclusions.
I do wish you were closer Steve..... thanks for the kind offer once again. Thanks to all those who have offered advice.
Julian
07 March 2002, 09:39 PM
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Fox,
it is possible to run the Motec with a switchable protection for running non SUL - Moray had this option on his car - although I think it is simply a boost cut.
Having had a standard STi V for nearly 10k miles I am confident that it is leaning out in certain areas, especially as you have extra breathing - yes retard will help resolve the problem - but it is not a true fix. I'm glad I never took my standard car on track!
Your comment about the LINK is incorrect - the latest chip for the STi V does not need the three port boost solenoid - I have tried both the three port and the two port with the latest chip and get superb boost control with the two port. So you can save yourself over £100 notes and get something else to play with.
Cheers,
Trout
it is possible to run the Motec with a switchable protection for running non SUL - Moray had this option on his car - although I think it is simply a boost cut.
Having had a standard STi V for nearly 10k miles I am confident that it is leaning out in certain areas, especially as you have extra breathing - yes retard will help resolve the problem - but it is not a true fix. I'm glad I never took my standard car on track!
Your comment about the LINK is incorrect - the latest chip for the STi V does not need the three port boost solenoid - I have tried both the three port and the two port with the latest chip and get superb boost control with the two port. So you can save yourself over £100 notes and get something else to play with.
Cheers,
Trout
07 March 2002, 09:47 PM
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Sry T yeah .. about the MOTEC...
I am not sure about switchable proectection... BUT I think the M800 does have a twin MAP... not 100% sure on this ..but I had heard that rally privateers wanted the 2 maps for running distances with their cars on 98 whilst rallying on much more expensive fuel?????
J
I am not sure about switchable proectection... BUT I think the M800 does have a twin MAP... not 100% sure on this ..but I had heard that rally privateers wanted the 2 maps for running distances with their cars on 98 whilst rallying on much more expensive fuel?????
J
07 March 2002, 11:28 PM
#23
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Motec's generally cannot run twin maps per se, it can however modify its maps with an offset when set up to do so ie reduce all timing by X% for example to run on lower grade fuel but that would not be a second map and would be a very general band aid.
07 March 2002, 11:52 PM
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Hi Foz,
When a MAF starts to fail, the output voltage for high air flow is reduced. This means the ECU sees less air flow and correspondingly puts in less fuel. The mixture goes lean and you get det. You will not see these symptoms unless at high load and RPM where the air flow rate is high.
Just to prove it, borrow someone else MAF for half an hour and take it for a spin. You could save yourself a lot of money. They are dead easy to swap - 5 minute job.
Steve
When a MAF starts to fail, the output voltage for high air flow is reduced. This means the ECU sees less air flow and correspondingly puts in less fuel. The mixture goes lean and you get det. You will not see these symptoms unless at high load and RPM where the air flow rate is high.
Just to prove it, borrow someone else MAF for half an hour and take it for a spin. You could save yourself a lot of money. They are dead easy to swap - 5 minute job.
Steve
08 March 2002, 08:12 AM
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I will try that Steph....
Bro has a P1 ... same MAF ....
Have to say my car was peaking at 1.4 Bar as standard when I got it and you could imagine the DET. I enlarge the orifice in the blleb back to wastegate and got it down to 1.1 Held with only 0.05 overshoot. This really helped ... anyway ... I will try switching MAF.... I forgot to say the MAF has done 1800 miles only ... but stupid me did 1000 with a Blitz SUS on !!!
Cheers matey
Bro has a P1 ... same MAF ....
Have to say my car was peaking at 1.4 Bar as standard when I got it and you could imagine the DET. I enlarge the orifice in the blleb back to wastegate and got it down to 1.1 Held with only 0.05 overshoot. This really helped ... anyway ... I will try switching MAF.... I forgot to say the MAF has done 1800 miles only ... but stupid me did 1000 with a Blitz SUS on !!!
Cheers matey
08 March 2002, 08:52 AM
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>did 1000 with a Blitz SUS on !!!
>
That'd do it :-)
If you were peaking at 1.4 bar, that's rather high.
Was the weather very cold when this happened or was it all the time ?
Steve
>
That'd do it :-)
If you were peaking at 1.4 bar, that's rather high.
Was the weather very cold when this happened or was it all the time ?
Steve
08 March 2002, 08:58 PM
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Hi Steve and all,
Weather was cold....!!! Damn...
Anyway not to worry the MAF will be gone Monday!!! (anyone got a knackered one I could have ?? only want the mesh and tube)... anyway the Blitz will be back on. I have, after MUCH consideration decided to go with the GEMS. There are many considerations that I have taken into account -
Locality of support and mapping
Future changes I wish to consider for my motor… i.e. FMIC
Comments from rallying privateers
Features - There are a lot
Price & VFM
I have even spoken at some length to GEMS UK and their technical staff.
I have confidence in the unit .... this is not to say I don't have confidence in others. To be honest I offer only the highest praise to many experts that have provided advice to me over the last week or so. I know they would not want to be named in person but I must say thanks to BRD, PowerStation, Scoobymania, GEMS UK, PE, G GR. They have patiently chatted to me and although some would argue they are promoting their product in almost all cases they tried hard to give an objective and unbiased view.
My head at this moment is bulging and so is my notebook. So if anyone considering and ECU wants an unbiased enthusiasts view feel free to mail me...I have extensive notes.
Cheers all,
Julian
Weather was cold....!!! Damn...
Anyway not to worry the MAF will be gone Monday!!! (anyone got a knackered one I could have ?? only want the mesh and tube)... anyway the Blitz will be back on. I have, after MUCH consideration decided to go with the GEMS. There are many considerations that I have taken into account -
Locality of support and mapping
Future changes I wish to consider for my motor… i.e. FMIC
Comments from rallying privateers
Features - There are a lot
Price & VFM
I have even spoken at some length to GEMS UK and their technical staff.
I have confidence in the unit .... this is not to say I don't have confidence in others. To be honest I offer only the highest praise to many experts that have provided advice to me over the last week or so. I know they would not want to be named in person but I must say thanks to BRD, PowerStation, Scoobymania, GEMS UK, PE, G GR. They have patiently chatted to me and although some would argue they are promoting their product in almost all cases they tried hard to give an objective and unbiased view.
My head at this moment is bulging and so is my notebook. So if anyone considering and ECU wants an unbiased enthusiasts view feel free to mail me...I have extensive notes.
Cheers all,
Julian
08 March 2002, 09:27 PM
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Fox,
it will be really interesting to get feedback from your Gems experience - I must say that the Gems mapper I spoke to was very knowledgeable and thought the LINK was very strange
Trout
it will be really interesting to get feedback from your Gems experience - I must say that the Gems mapper I spoke to was very knowledgeable and thought the LINK was very strange
Trout
