john banks

I don't want to get Scoobynet into trouble, so if any mod wants to edit feel free. I merely want to discuss facts and the pros and cons of different products not start a slanging match.

However, I have now heard from three independent sources that the MY01 PPP is merely an RPM dependent remapped MAP sensor input - read a sophisticated version of a Superchip - sophisticated in that it does still have a fuel cut and that the boost curve shape is acutally designed by it being RPM dependent.

This is being retailed at quite a hefty cost considering what it is and could be built just as well for about £10. I could even show you a circuit and code to do it if you want to try it yourselves.

I wouldn't buy one, but I did MY99/00 PPP as it was actually a proper remap.

Just thought you all might like to know what you are buying.

[Edited by john banks - 1/25/2002 10:52:15 AM]

Mike Tuckwood

My understanding was that they were all as you describe? What makes you think that 99.00MY was a "proper" remap?

MorayMackenzie

I don't see why this thread should be edited or removed, I think you (John) have a good point and that it is in the best interests of the subaru community that you have raised it. Well done.

StephenDone

# It has been extensively tested - this is ProDrive we are talking about.
# You don't have to lift a finger (or the bonnet).
# It does do the biz rather well.
# YOU KEEP YOUR WARRANTY !!!

All big plus points I reckon, so let's be fair.

Steve

john banks

Agreed the results are good, just the means are questionable. The warranty seems a little "expensive". In comparison the MY99/00 PPP I personally think was good value overall, but maybe I am rationalising it because I bought one

Mike T, Mike Wood has said that the MY99/00 is a proper remap and I don't disbelieve him, but he did not deny comments about the MY01 setup being some MAP sensor trickery, neither did Simon Lines on I-club.

MY99/00 PPP: It certainly behaves differently to a boosted normal ECU in terms of more sensible fuelling when you up the boost - and you do get a completely new ECU badged STi but obviously remapped. My car got surprisingly good results on the rollers on the same day compared with some Superchips cars running more boost - I reckon this is due to the remap.

To the end user there is perhaps no difference and possibly the MY01 ECU is better at fuelling and ignition at high boost so it isn't necessary, but then I would argue the price should be about £250 for the Prodrive ECU when you consider what is actually being done. When you can buy a Link ECU for what £800, any more I think for a very low tech piggyback box is daylight robbery.

There are more electronics in many childrens' toys or the average calculator these days! Granted there are development costs, but a MAP remap is going to cost a lot less than a full remap.

[Edited by john banks - 1/25/2002 11:51:04 AM]

[Edited by john banks - 1/25/2002 1:54:29 PM]

T-uk

according to falkland a PPP car fuels the same as a superchipped car at 17/18psi.

john banks

Mike Wood has emailed me off line to point out that the unit is more sophisticated and could remap boost and ignition but they have found they do not need to. He also quite rightly points out that the end result does not demonstrate the amount of development taken to achieve what looks like a very simple solution, and does not want to be drawn into a debate defending Prodrive's products on the BBS. I have expressed my disappointment about the last bit since Scoobynet and other BBS have informed customers who want to know what they are buying and why.

None of this changes the fact that all the actual product is is a boost controller. You need to draw your own conclusions about whether you buy it or not.

May I make it clear I have no interests to declare and have not and do not intend to market anything commercially for tuning Subarus.

I also have a MY00 PPP and am very happy with it. Maybe MY01 owners are also given that they get the same effect.

[Edited by john banks - 1/25/2002 1:38:07 PM]

DrEvil

John - cheers for the info, I knew about the MAP sensor, but I thought it changed the fueling as well, this has helped me decide the way forward on my '01, looks like a boost controller is on the cards.

Cheers, Alex

POC

Based on this theory (or fact!), how come more cars with superchips meltdown than cars with ppp? Could this be due to inexperienced superchip fitters winding the boost up too far?

Surley if they are essentialy the same thing, what is the point of paying c.£1600 for a PPP when you could get a superchip, downpipe, center, backbox and airfilter for alot less and produce more power......

I understand waranty is a factor, but if the technology is essentialy the same..... Is PPP worth the extra dollars?

Or have I missed the point?

Paul

[Edited by POC - 1/25/2002 2:19:45 PM]

DrEvil

POC - I think your first comment is on the money.. the superchip tuners tend to try to push the car too hard to produce 270-280bhp on the std turbo.

john banks

Superchip has no fuel cut. If they made a product at the same price that RAISED the fuel cut I would buy it.

There are many people with Superchips running well over 20PSI. I think that is our answer regarding failures.

T-uk

I think owners adjusting the bleed valve to up the boost is the main problem with superchips,also as fuel cut is removed,if a pipe bursts or came off the boost will go through the roof

simes

Interesting stuff, thanks John.

I know from points you have raised in the Dawes device threads and info that I have seen elsewhere that boost controllers on MY01/2's are causing issues with EGT and the up-pipe cat, why wouldn't this be the case with the PPP in that case? Or is it better able to control part throttle boost which appears to cause the problems?

Alex, what Boost Controller options are you considering exactly? Are you getting the up-pipe mod done? Starting to consider these options myself.

Cheers

Simon

john banks

I think you've got it on the part throttle thing and the PPP drops the boost at the top end quite a lot more than a Dawes would.

T-uk

http://dyno.scoobynet.co.uk/psuk/paul_walker.htm

-MY00 with PPP-boost control is not the PPP's strong point,this graph was why I was worried about Dawes cars holding higher boost over 6000rpm.

[Edited by T-uk - 1/25/2002 2:42:16 PM]

john banks

That is one individual car, and the PPP as standard (if you sort the blinking restrictors out if necessary) has pretty tight boost control. If you fit breathing mods it knocks it off like the standard ECU understandably.

I don't think the original or PPP ECU boost control algorithm is anything like as good as an aftermarket boost controller even if you don't mod the thing. There are offsets and variable peaks aplenty. We all know this from driving the things daily - you don't need expensive research to tell you OEM boost control sucks even with an unmodded car.

POC

OK, so the only drawbacks of a superchip is that it removes the ECU fuel cut, and it is fitted by power-hungry grease monkies....

What is to stop someone rigging a circit onto a boost gauge (crude), once the boost gauge hits a certain pressure, it sends a pulse to a switch that would cut the fuel pump?

I am sure people out there (John B ) can interpret the electronic boost signals from the engine.... how hard would it be to have something that would cut the fuel at a certain pressure?

Paul (lots of ideas bouncing around in his empty head)

john banks

You just read the MAP sensor and put a notch in it and pump it out again. Or you could put a look up table and map one boost input to another output.

POC

There is the answer then? Would it be reliable?

A superchip cost roughly £230fitted

How much would your little circut cost?

Paul

john banks

£10 in bits. There is a guy on I-club talking about producing my/our open source boost controller design with surface mount components on a PCB the size of a credit card. A MAP remap for this would literally add only a few lines of code, a lookup table and a DAC stuck on the output. We are talking pennies on mass produced scale.

POC

Ok, I understood none of that!

£10 eh....

Worth a bash? Want to make one up....?

So this could off the same performance as PPP for roughly £250.... it is interesting isnt it!

P

john banks

I'll have a go later. I did previously post a notch type MAP modifier link on Scoobynet using analogue devices.

By remapping the MAP sensor you also raise the setpoint the ECU shoots for on held boost as well as raising fuel cut.

I don't have a MY01, am not doing this commercially and not making anything for anyone. Go to tuning shops for all that. I put the post here for information.

But I can come up with an open source design for MAP remapper using microelectronics if that would interest people. I may modify the EBC code to do it, the circuit would just need a DAC added.

Some folk may choose to produce these ideas - that is fine if they are not profiting as far as I am concerned.

The reality is if ideas are any good they will be stolen anyway. I do this only for interest and make a living out of medicine.

[Edited by john banks - 1/25/2002 3:22:19 PM]

POC

*whooosh*

Straight over my head....

I will consider getting a superchip installed, would you like to produce a fuel cut switch thingy?

Prob wont be for a couple of months...

Paul

PS: You the John Banks of BMW fame? (unixnerd?)

john banks

There is no point using two devices to change the MAP sensor. Just use one but get it working properly.

As I say a lot of this stuff is too difficult for most folk to do themselves safely. But if someone stepped in and produced the thing and it just had to be wired that might be a different matter.

I am fine on making designs and prototypes/one offs, but just don't have the skill to do this commercially nor the will.

Dave T-S

John mate, if I make my own ECU, can you cure my bad back instead

POC

No problems John.

I will get in touch if I decide to go ahead, we can then knock our heads together!

Superb ideas though

Paul

john banks

Dave, I would be on to a winner if I could fix bad backs. It is easier to make a Subaru go quicker than to fix a bad back I am afraid.

Dave T-S

Bu66er - standard ECU - AND a bad back

john banks

In the interests of openness, Mike Wood and I are basically exchanging emails where he is pointing out that there is a heck of a lot of R&D even on what appears to be a simple end result and that the price of MY01 PPP is lower. He is saying that the MY01 ECU is so advanced that the fuelling and ignition timing are already ideal hence there being no need to do anything to them. All good points.

I think people buy it because they have no warranted alternative, because the MY01 is that bit heavier, and because they believe they are getting a very clever product.

To be fair, I can see from Prodrive's point of view though that it is difficult to contribute positively to a thread like this.

Hence why I started by trying to just state the facts as best I could establish them from different independent sources.

Make your own mind up and buy accordingly.

There are still positive features for the MY01 PPP however it does it - warranty, resale, safety, no monitoring required, dealer backup/installation, and moderate performance along with a nice exhaust and pipework. So I'm sure it will still sell like hot cakes. But will the MY01 PPP'd ECUs be like gold dust like the old ones were? Possibly, but they won't change hands for the same wads of cash.

slippyr4

... i'd finally decided to go for the PPP, but this thread is making me wonder if its the right thing to do again.