Sue Sidal

OK Chaps and chapesses, get your thinking caps on for me please.
I have a JDM STi7, registered September 2001.
The car has been serviced every 6000 miles by Tiley's (Bristol), has covered 30,300 miles and with the exception of a couple of emergency fill ups, has been run on Optimax.
It had an intermediate service yesterday morning and I collected the car at about 3PM yesterday.
This morning at about 1030AM, driving along the M49, I lost power.
The vehicle was recovered by the AA to Tiley's where they had a look at it for me.
When they started it up, plumes of white smoke came from the exhaust and it sounded horrible.
One of their engineers diagnosed that a piston had failed. The service manager suggested that this was not unusual for JDM cars at "around 35,000 miles" although they had never had an STi do this.
I'm awaiting a quote for the repair but we're talking a minimum of £2500 plus VAT.
Obviously I have my own thoughts as to how I will deal with this but I would be very interested in the thoughts of others, particularly those that have had a similar experience.
I thank you in advance for your help.

greasemonkey

Not sure how much we can say really, pending a detailed analysis of the damage. A couple of comments though:

What about octane booster? Optimax alone is not enough to replicate the 100+ octane fuel Japanese market cars are designed to run on. How long have you run it in this country - was it imported new?

There is a well known chain of events that can instigate an engine failure very shortly after a service. However, this process normally (although not always) results in a big end failure rather than a piston. It may be possible to diagnose lubrication failure once the engine is stripped, but proving negligence on the part of the garage who serviced the car is unfortunately never easy.

Was this diagnosed via disassembly, or was it simply from the initial visual/aural examination of the car?

As a sweeping generalisation, the 35,000 miles comment is bollocks. Unfortunately, without knowing the exact nature of the failure, let alone not being able to physically access the engine, it is unfortunately impossible to speculate with any certainty as to the cause.

Suggest that one of your immediate options may be to canvas other firms about the repair of your engine. A third party may not only be able to repair the car more economically, they may also be able to offer an expert opinion on the cause of the failure. If you say APIDavid three times, a suitably qualified repairer may appear. There are other places of course, so survey your options carefully before trusting Tileys to do the job.

Sue Sidal

Thanks Grease Monkey. To answer your questions:
Never used octane booster. I've run it in this country since September 2001 and yes, it was new.
The diagnosis was visual/aural and is to be verified (or otherwise) on strip down.
I appreciate your input, a guy from another forum has suggested a 2.5 engine for circa £1400 if the worst comes. I will keep you posted.

greasemonkey

Oops. That's not ideal really. The ECU might have applied sufficient knock correction, but on the other hand it may not have. This may unfortunately prove to be a contributor to the failure, which may thus, in part at least, proved to be self-inflicted.

Would be worth giving serious thought to offering this job to someone else. If nothing else, if it does turn out that they f**k*d the service up, you don't stand an earthly of getting them to admit it, or indeed much chance of the rebuild being performed optimally, if you leave the same mechanics to do the job.

Think you can find the 2.5 short engine for considerably less than that if you look around. A 2.0 litre STi short should also be available for far more reasonable money than Tiley's are likely to have quoted you, while the labour charged will also vary. Thus, as I said, it's well worth looking around for potential alternative repairers, for a number of good reasons.

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

Say APIDavid 3 times, spin around and open your eyes - Presto!! Here I are.

We have low mileage, guaranteed STi 7 complete engines in stock that can be fitted straight into your car without the worry of what is wrong with the old one. The 2.5 deal is an option but to do it right WILL be more expensive.

We have all the expertise to tell you why and how the old one failed.

Prices can be discussed away from here.

If you want a sensible conversation give me a call at the office.

David API Engines 01926 614522

Sue Sidal

Grease Monkey/API David - Thank you for your invaluable input. David, I'll call you tomorrow.
Thanks again.

RON

Just as and aside matter, how did you manage to get an UK main dealer to service a JDM car??

krazy

I havn't found one that won't...
Well may be if u phone up and ask do u service imports etc... they might/prolly say no..

Bob Rawle

The standard ecu has limits on its knock correction ability, if you venture outside (high revs for example) then there is none.

Assume if no booster you have run it on 97 or Optimax all the time, and not 95 ron ?

Tileys are a very reputable dealer to my knowledge and are used to servicing and dealing with cars in a variety of mod state. Certainly a piston failure would not be caused by the normal oil change debate unless gross overfill resulted in ingestion which then caused it to detonate. Other than that you possibly generated sufficient heat to cause the piston to seize (nip) in the bore again causing the engine to detonate (as opposed to the engine detting). For example if you were driving enthusiasticaly within 5 miles of setting off then that could contribute.

Ron I think what they do and how is there business and possibly not for public debate.

Was there any thoughts on which piston btw?

As GM mentions there are a variety of options available but I would strongly recommend NOT going for a 2.5 short engine unless you can afford to make all the other necessary changes to go with it (read all the extra cost) the very least of which would be a remap. A good option would be to contact Litchfield Imports as they have MY03 JDM spec short blocks that come free when they do the Type 25 conversion, all your ancilliarys will go staright on and no remap needed. There is a bit of a wait though. Or alternatively david could come up trumps. Its all going to work out in a similar area though depending on what damage there is to your block, I suspect that the damaged cylinder is badly scored.

bob

RON

I wasn't trying to start a whole 'issue' being raised, you just don't hear it being openly admitted too that often!

Sue Sidal

Ron - I asked them if they would service it before I bought it and they said it was not a problem.

Bob - Optimax with the exception of a couple of emergency splash n dashes.
Engine was well up to temp, I never exceed 3.5K until fully warmed up.

I'll speak with David later and call Ian Litchfield also, thanks for your input, it's a great help.

Sue Sidal

An update for you, I'd appreciate your comments. I went to Tiley's today. My car's on a ramp with the engine in pieces underneath. I have the remains of 2 of the pistons in my office, both of the bores are badly scored and the turbo casing has a crack. Dave (mechanic) has explained to me that the damage has been caused because the ECU was not mapped for UK fuel. JDM cars require 103 RON, Optimax is 98 RON. Basically it needs a new bottom end plus a lot of labour, a new turbo and then an ECU remap.
So my questions are:
1. Does this sound right to you knowledgeable tekkies?
2. As I bought the car new from a UK specialist car importer, would it be unreasonable to have expected them to have remapped the ECU for UK fuel?
3. Who do I sue?
4. Are Subaru Japan likely to be interested?
5. Are there any other pi55ed off owners out there that would like to join me in taking this to Top Gear or Watchdog or Richard and Judy?
6. If I wanted the vehicle independantly examined to make sure I'm not being tucked up, can anybody recommend someone please?
As ever, thanks for your help.

krazy

103 ron.. seems to go up all the time.
Standard grades according to japan petroleum institute (or something like, regulatory people) are 91 96 and 100 ron.
Can get higher, but would guess a bit like here not as readily available.
Subaru japan probably won't want to know.
Also wasn't there a few early bug eye uk sti's that melted pistons too, certainly the local demo one was quickly knackered..
You've had it since 2001? don't think there will be anyone 2 sue :-(

JohnD

iTrader: (5)

1) Sounds fair to me, but that must have been some serious det. to have wrecked it in the way you describe? Of course it could be a chain of events eg mild piston damage due to det, being magnified by the rotational forces of the engine, resulting in the damage you describe. I'm sure Bob, GM, API etc can be more explicit.
2) They're in business to flog motors, and while there are people around who consider they are getting a bargain they'll keep importing them.
I do believe it is encumbant upon them, however, to fully inform purchasers of the pitfalls including, in this case, the advisability of an ECU re-map (but would you have paid an extra 6-700 quid?)
3) You could try the importers but I reckon the re-build could be cheaper?
4) As you purchased a car not intended by Subaru for use in the UK I would have thought this was a non starter!
5) Your complaint would be against the importer - not Subaru, but the name of Subaru would be tainted, unfairly in this case. Clarkson!!! - don't think he'd recognise an ECU if it bit him on the ar*e! Richard and Judy - now that's getting serious!

Sorry Sue - I think it's bite the bullet time?
JohnD
JohnD

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

David API Engines

Sue Sidal

Chaps - all interesting stuff, thanks for your input. The more people I speak to about this, the more confused I get. I'm taking a fairly pragmatic view of this situation, but the bottom line is that if the ECU should have been remapped to cope with the lower grade fuel and it wasn't, then I'm going after the supplier. I'll let the court decide. So I need some definitive input from you all, did it need a remap YES or NO. Please vote accordingly and we'll all fight about it later. I'm also going to post a separate thread asking just that question to see if I can raise some more interest.
David - Can you get that quote off to me ASAP please?
Thanks again.

matscooby

iTrader: (3)

Sue Sidal, I had the exact same problem with my car but I have a MY96 STI RA V2.
Mine went to Tiley's last August and it cost £2575 inc vat for total rebuild.

Again same problem just had a service and next day it went pop, mine went on 42000 miles and now running superb once again, but I probably won't go there again as I was stupid not to look around for some cheaper prices.

At that time I never heard of Scoobynet and never new so many specialists like Scoobyclinic or API.

And the answer to your last post I would probably say yes it did need a remap.

Nothiing to do with this thread really but I thought I'll bring it up anyway, I was told by Tiley's was that every new subaru sold at subaru dealerships comes into the country mapped for Japannese fuel not the uk level, so the dealers have to remap them to a uk fuel grade.

zhastaph

Not really wanting to stick up for the importer and i do really sympathise and understand what a position you have found youself left in but;

I think it's unfair (and unrealistic) to expect the importer to have remapped the car it's not a simple flick of a switch thing it requires specialist skills and equipment. Most good mappers will charge upward of £600 to remap a car which will make the price of the car less attractive particulalry when comparing to other importers not offering this service.

I think what is more realistic is that they should have told you that the car must be run on an absolute minimum of Super Unleaded plus a good octane booster. The trouble is proving that they didn't tell you this is a matter of speculation and would be incredibly difficult to prove.

WREXY

That's right. No imported Jap spec car comes ready mapped for UK fuel. It's up to the owner to do it and that's if the person has been lucky enough, (e.g. reading Scoobynet ,to have been educated about it.

Agree that the importer should warn on what fuel to use.

dij

I think matscooby has a point where all cars are mapped on jap fuel.
If the UK dealers have to change the map before they can sell the cars,then all private importers should have to do the same as part of the registration process.

To me it seems to be more of a problem on subarus than other Jap imports,and dealers/warranty companies will use this 'fueling issue' as their first excuse to get out of taking liability.

IMO,youre doing the right thing by taking some sort of action.

Its very unfair that somebody should have to blow a good few £000 on something that shouldnt have happened,especialy when its not your fault.

My sympathy is with you and I hope you have the neccessary resources to put everything right.

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

I don't think that can be right. There is too much chance there that a car might get out onto Uk roads having been forgotten. Much more likely that the cars come from Japan with a ' UK ' computer installed. But, I have heard that Uk dealers have the ability through the select monitor to change the fuelling characteristics of each injector.

Come on you mapping tecchies, one of you must know the truth re the top above.

David API Engines / API Impreza

zhastaph

Quote:

I don't think that can be right. There is too much chance there that a car might get out onto Uk roads having been forgotten. Much more likely that the cars come from Japan with a ' UK ' computer installed.

It's also a bit like saying that the UK dealers put in softer suspension, longer gears and take off the pink badges

john banks

As I understand it the UK cars are programmed as such at the factory. I can confirm that the EU cars have the same ECU code as the UK cars in all examples I've seen. The lid label and the base are different from LHD to RHD to fit the ECU in the passenger footwell, but the board and the electronics seem identical.

ZIPPY

The long and the short of this is 'You will get nowhere' chasing the importer.You as the owner should know about the fuel issue, the court if clued up will state the car was designed to run on 100 Ron fuel and you ran it on 98 Ron,unknowingly or not its your own fault as you bought a product designed for one specific market and used it somewhere else.

krazy

It is a bit annoying though, when I was looking all of the importers/dealers that I asked claimed that a remap was not necessary as the ecu could cope/adjust for uk fuel.. even ones that I thought would of been clued up, one even said although higher octane is better we use 95ron in our cars cos its all we can get round here...
I know its not quite the same, but in some bikes (non-fuel injected) at least in some trackday/race bikes, it was claimed that the higher density of optimax, caused leaning at the top end and required a rejet, could this also affect fuel injected cars to some degree?

Bob Rawle

All Eurospec cars come into the contry with a Eurospec set of maps, all JDM cars come with JDM maps, the difference is significant, in all cases (talking sti here) you should not use 95 ron fuel at all and Eurospec cars should only use Super, JDM cars need 100 ron minimum, you don't need a remap to achieve that, just use booster but if the car is modded then it should be remapped. NO Uk dealer supplying a Eurospec car has to do anything about the maps as its sorted already. (supposedly)

No dealer remaps as such, there are one or two exceptions who offer this as an extra cost service but you certainly can't attack a dealer for "no remap" as he is not obligated, you buy a JDM car then it needs JDM level fuel, I would say that all importers should make customers aware of the need to do this though but again, what makes even that obligatory ?

So just some ramblings. Bottom line running on Optimax is below spec for the fuel, if you pushed it hard (and coolant up to temp is not up to temp) then it probably picked up a piston, what cylinders were the pistons from ?

bob

vindaloo

There is an issue here though about the fuel. Should an ordinary member of the public be expected to know that a JDM car requires 'fortified' petrol or engine management changes before being sold (as new?) in the UK?

Normally, you'd point to the owner's manual but if that's in pictures or hieroglyphics, that's no help either.

Not wanting to start a war here but for x thousand quids, it's something I'd want to pursue.... Though I guess it's possible to spend loads actually proving why it went wrong.....

J.

Bob Rawle

As I mentioned, I would add "all sellers" to that.

"I would say that all importers should make customers aware of the need to do this though but again, what makes even that obligatory ?"

Bob

Sue Sidal

Chaps - All very interesting. Those of you that don't believe I have a case against the importer Just sit back a second and think about this:
I bought this car, in good faith for £26000, brand new, for use on UK roads, using UK fuel, supplied by a UK Import "Specialist".
I've had the car serviced every 6000 miles at a Subaru authorised dealership.
I have no technical knowledge, I just liked the car.
The dealer never mentioned anything about having to use higher grade fuel.
I culd have imported a similar car myself, but I paid extra for the peace of mind that a professional import company had dealt with this and obviously they made a profit from the transaction.
Had I bought the car second hand privately, I would gree that this was my problem, "Caveat emptor" applies.
However, would "the man in the street" be expected to know all of these issues? It seems that there is even confusion amongst the tekkies on this site......... Additionally, is it reasonable for a £26000 vehicle that is less than 3 years old, has been serviced every 6000 miles to have a catastrophic engine failure at 30,000 miles? I've never had another car or motor cycle do this so I don't think it's me...
I believe that the dealer has a duty of care to ensure that the vehicle is fit for use on UK roads, using UK fuel and if that means that they have to pay for an ECU remap and pass that onto the client, who's going to complain about that? Better that than the situation I have now, do we agree on that? I may be wrong, I may be right, I don't know. So the only way that it can be properly tested is in the court. Once again I appreciate your views and thanks for all your help.

ZIPPY

Whilst i sympathise with your problem,buying a JDM car new or not will have NO MANUFACTURER WARRANTY.Yes you may have a secondary warranty from a 3rd party company but THEY will point out the fuel issue as the main cause of the failure and say bye bye to any claim.

You dont buy a TV in Spain which runs on 120 volts and then say ''when i plugged it in back home in the UK it blew up can i have my money back please''.
Sorry sir the TV wasnt designed for use in your country you should have had the power supply changed to cope with your voltages.
You play dumb and say '' how am i supposed to know that '' they will always take you back to the point of ''where it was designed to be used''.

The importer will have no idea or interest as to what fuel it runs on as he is out to make a good profit selling cars, he will think petrol is the same the world over,RON to him will be his mate down the pub.

Zippy