AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

(Also posted in General - mods, please understand why I might have my mind on things other than worrying about which is the correct forum right now!)

Yesterday evening, during my normal and rather sedate drive home, my engine developed a rattle. Today, on the advice of my dealer, I had the car recovered to a garage where it's been diagnosed as suffering from a probable big-end failure

The car is a UK supplied MY00, 61k miles, and has been serviced by a main dealer on the dot of every service interval - so, it only had the 60k service a month ago. I've had the car from new, so I know it's never been abused. The only engine mod is the PPP which was fitted when the car was 1 yr old.

Needless to say I'm absolutely gutted and need to consider my options from a practical, financial and legal point of view. I'd really appreciate any advice.

Has this happened to anyone else? If it's happened to you, please would you mind sharing the outcome?

The car is out of warranty, but obviously hasn't provided service which could be described as 'reasonable' - does anyone know where I stand with regard to consumer protection law?

I'm located in Farnborough, Hants. My nearest Subaru dealer is Bell & Colvill and my nearest independent specialist is, I believe, Power Engineering in Uxbridge. Any comments on either of these (or any other viable options) before I decide where to have the work done?

I appreciate that it's hard to tell until the engine's been stripped to find out the extent of the damage, but can anyone suggest whether it's likely to be worth having the engine repaired at all or whether I'd be better off trying to locate another engine?

Why has my car done this to me when I've looked after it so well?

All support and advice gratefully received - I think I need a beer or twelve now

Andy.

MorayMackenzie

Roughly how many miles had you driven it since the last service?

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

Roughly 1000 miles IIRC. Is there a pattern here?

GregK

Andy, I strongly recommend you contact your local Trading Standards office and speak to them about it. They will be able to tell you what recourse you have and the process you should follow to get the result you want (assuming that you have recourse!). IIRC you may have a valid claim based on the life expectancy and reliability of your car taking into account mileage, service history etc. You may have to appoint a motor engineer to inspect and produce a detailed report on the failure.

Good Luck!!

If it turns out that you have to stand the cost of any repair work I can whole-heartedly recommend Scoobyclinic. They did an excellent job of rebuilding my MY99 car at a good price. Give Kev a ring - you won't be disappointed.

Cheers

Greg

MorayMackenzie

I know that the big ends will sometimes let go shortly after an oilservice. I have seen a car fail within a couple of hundred miles of such a service. How much stick did the car get over those 1000 miles?

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

A number of things need to be checked to define the cause. Three curlprits are: Oil pressure relief valve (or some other oil pressure related problem), the Airflow sensor (MAF) , and the knock sensor.

Have a good word with the main dealer, seeing that the car is not that much out of it's warantee, it has been known for engines to be replaced on a good will basis.

Unfortunately they could very easily refuse as it is out of warantee...and **** most certainly does happen!

GregK

Andy/Moray - my car did exactly that. Big ends let go within 500 miles of a service, the car had done just over 72,000 miles. I had a 3rd party warranty that wasn't worth the ink on the paper it was printed on so ended up having to pay for it myself. Their decision was that no mechanical part covered under the warranty had been the root cause of the failure and therefore they were not liable for the consequential damage. The car had a full main dealer service history, but IM and the Subaru main dealer (the largest Subaru main dealer in the UK, based very near to Southampton) who sold me the car didn't want to know.

IM warrant their "Proven" used cars up to 80,000 so you may have a valid claim. Talk to your Trading Standards!

Good Luck!

Greg

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

AndyC YHM

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for the advice - I'll call trading standards in the morning. Given that the service was about 1000 miles ago, it seems unlikely to me that the two are related. After all, with service intervals so short, it's quite likely that any random failure will occur shortly after a service whether the two are connected or not.

I'm not really bothered about the technical reasons for the failure right now - I'll worry about that after the rebuild. I'm more interested in getting the car back on the road at minimum cost to myself, so I'm trying to figure out where to take the car and whether or not I have a claim against someone in consumer law. After all, 61k miles/4 yrs is no life for a new engine.

Greg, who eventually fixed your engine? Were you happy with the service?

Andy.

WREXY

Andy,

You do need to know the technical reasons for the failure as soon as possible. If it's a failing MAF or knock sensor, you can be sure that without replacing these bits before starting up the new engine, that it will blow again very quickly. There have been quite a few on here that have had this happen to them simply because they did not know their previous engine blew due to a failing MAF and did not replace the faulty sensor.

Cheers,

George.

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

Point taken. It seems a bit sad that I should have to get involved at that level, though. Most car owners - myself included - wouldn't know a MAF sensor if it fell on them.

What does it cost to replace? (Bearing in mind that the engine's coming out anyway - presumably the additional labour will be nil, yes?)

GregK

Andy, Scoobyclinic rebuilt my engine, I put a link in one of my earlier replies for you. They did an excellent job and I'm very pleased with the results. Give Kev a call and you can discuss options with him. They are in Chesterfield but will collect your car for you. They may even have a standard short engine ready to go so your downtime will be minimal.

Cheers

Greg

WREXY

Andy,

I had no idea about these things either m8. Everything I learned has been from reading these forums along with 22b forums. You are right that most people don't know. All I can say is lucky we have these forums with help from people that are kind and care.

The MAF sensor should cost you between 60 and 90 pounds and nil labour.

Cheers,

George.

Cosworth427

This is why I asked what the oil pressure is like, in the other thread you made, Andy. Does your Impreza have an oil pressure guage for easy reference?

Rod bearings failing after a "service" sounds like an oil problem. Either not enough oil or completely crappy/unsuitable oil. Try adding some top up oil and see whether the noise goes away, if not then it looks like a those bearings need to be replaced.

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

I don't have an oil pressure gauge, so I've no idea what the oil pressure is like. Somehow I can't see an oil change fixing this one - I've been on the phone to several garages today to discuss rebuild costs, which vary between about £2500 and £4000.

I quite like the idea of sending it to Powerstation, who have 2.0 JDM bottom ends that they rip out of brand new JDM STIs to convert them into Type 25s - at least these stronger internals might help reduce the chance of it happening again.

Cosworth427

Stronger pistons perhaps. But the bearings just don't have that uprated strength. Poor oil, poor oil supply and high RPM can destroy any engine, JDM or not. How much are Powerstation quoting you for the new bottom end?

sooby

My car is a standard MY00. I don't have any gauges but what I have always done with all my cars is kept a note of the miles per gallon the cars do. I have found on several older cars that you often see a swing to poor mpg when something is starting to go wrong even before the car feels as though there is something wrong. I suspect this method would help with a faulty MAF - I'll let you know if it happens to me and I catch it before its too late!

WRX Wannabe

Sorry to hear that M8

I had mine MY00 (always serviced every 6 months)32K on clock, and 2 days after main dealer service the big end went

I did post a thread about it but cant do a search

Was fixed on warrenty

WREXY

Originally posted by SoobyMAF faults can make the car run excessively rich where fuel consumption will increase, letting you know something is wrong. However the fault can go the other way and cause lean running, where the car will feel more powerful and fuel consumption will decrease, making the driver very happy that performance has increased and fuel consumption has decreased. The fault will cause the engine to run leaner and leaner till it starts to det, then engine destruction.

I believe a Knocklink is best to monitor for det and believe that every turbo'd car should have one fitted.

Cheers,

George.

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

Interesting about the fuel consumption. My car definitely became thirstier for the couple of months or so before the failure - I put it down to the fact that my office moved recently and my drive to work is no longer a dull dual carriageway but a twisty, winding B-road. Although this undoubtedly will have had an effect, I couldn't say for sure that the office move and car thirst were entirely coincident. Next time I suspect something I'll get the MAF checked for sure.

sooby

George,

Quite. Whilst my experience has always seen cars get thirstier as things start to go wrong, perhaps I should have said "if the fuel consumption alters inexplicably"! I appreciate that leaning out is what destroys the engine - but that doesn't necessarily mean you get more to the gallon as past a certain point inefficiency creeps in.

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

Cosworth427: Powerstation are quoting £800 for the complete STI 2.0 bottom end. This puts the cost of a full rebuild at around £2500, which is on a par with what API Engines want for a rebuild using standard (ie. UK spec) OE parts. Xtreme Scoobies quoted a pretty competitive £2100-£2600 depending on the results of the strip-down, Thames Valley Motorsport undercut them all with a very reasonable sounding £1800, and Scoobyclinic can do £1500 (which I never, ever thought I'd perceive as a small garage bill!) on a good day. TSL were uncompetitive on price but sounded particularly knowledgeable and were reassuringly busy.

The question then is, do I want to keep the car completely standard with the same engine number, or am I better off with the STI bottom end? My concern is with insurance and difficulty of resale.

A full engine rebuild looks bad on a service history anyway, but the STI internals might be interpreted as a good sign that I'd taken a belt-and-braces approach to fixing the problem once and for all. On the other hand, a new engine number might flag a problem on an HPI check - but of course, I can document my way out of that one.

Insurance isn't a problem this year - I've checked - but some companies are twitchy about modified engine internals. I guess there's no way to know about this one.

GregK

Andy - did you give Scoobyclinic a try? IIRC a standard rebuild is around the £1500 mark. You may find that they will be able to fit the STi bottom end for a lot less than you have been quoted. I have no connection with them in any way, just found them to be excellent VFM.

Cheers

Greg

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

Upd: Just had a letter back from Subaru UK (surprisingly quick turnaround - 10/10 for that at least).

They're happy to consider - with the emphasis on 'consider' - paying up once I've had a full diagnosis, at a Subaru dealer of course. So, now I'm stuck. Either I let my dealer pull the engine to bits but have the possibility of Subaru covering the cost, or I take it elsewhere and get a rebuild that's both cheaper and ultimately stronger (with STI parts), but with little or no chance of any comeback.

Time for a phone call or two on Monday, I think

CustomScoobyIOM

Take this to a solicitor and get a letter for this.

Try to get Subaru to agree to it first mate.

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

Am negotiating with Subaru - watch this space

Graz

I probably way out of my depth here but anyway.....

Earlier in this thread there were several mentions of the dreaded MAF sensor. I fail to see how an under reading MAF could contribute significantly to a bottom end failure. Surely this is more likely to be due to oil starvation, or the wrong grade of oil, or failure to prime the filter and pressurise the oil system during a service etc.

A failing MAF would most likely cause a piston failure / meltdown?

Graz.

sooby

There's no probable about it for me - I *am* out of my depth but couldn't the extra stress on the bearings because of detonation cause the problem. After all, there must be tremendous pressure if detonation occurs too early.