paulwadams_my99

Hi all,

I bought a my99 with an unknown backbox. I have just had it ppp and picked my car up Friday after being on holiday for 2 wks. I decided to purchase the ppp because i wanted more midrange + keep warranty.

I asked for the backbox back because I thought it was a scoobysport and was going to sell it on or something but he said that it wasn't a scoobysport it was just a "mickey mouse" one so I thougt oh well forget it then.

Anyway after warming the car up I put my foot down and was really disappointed. If anything it felt like it was running at lower boost (Not having gauges that is hard to tell) but the kick it had at 3000rpm feels like it has been dumbed down. I also feel that the rev counter just doesn't move as fast as it used to combined with the actual feel of being pushed back.

How can this be? I am fairly sure I am not imagining it, it feels pretty similar in midrange again slower if anything.

What it has sorted out is my misfire symptom between 1000 - 3000 rpm in 1st and second and the power delivery seems smoother from 2500 rpm but its an expensive fix.

Why don't prodrive provide details of techical details like boost obtained etc when the vehicle is handed back? I presume they do test this after the upgrade? I feel pretty in the dark as far as a viable means of comparing the statistics of the car before and after.

Will my dealer be able to check this information if i take it in and will they be able to do anything?

thanks for any advice offered.


Regards

Paul

john banks

Puzzling. I had PPP put on MY00 (completely std) only 5 days ago, and the increase in performance is nothing short of stunning. 3rd feels like 2nd, 4th like 3rd, and 5th is very surprising. I wondered if it was overboosting at one stage, but I don't think that is now the case - just me getting used to the new power delivery. I find the turbo comes in about 400rpm earlier, and the top end is much freer. Over some estimated increments is really does seem be at least 20% quicker in the midrange. All I can think of is that there is either something wrong with your setup or there were rather more mods on the car than you thought? Backboxes alone would be very unlikely to give you 20% more torque at 3500rpm - look at the dyno site. Sounds rather puzzling. Why not see how it now compares to a standard turbo? Certainly when I had my PPP fitted it was on a trial basis - I have the old parts so it can be put back, and had chance to try it before I confirmed I wanted to keep it. The kick at 3000rpm on my beast turned it into a bit of an animal. Have a neighbor who just got a 330i (231 bhp 221 lbft) and when he went in my Scooby he was hanging his mouth open in disbelief at the midrange grunt - my car was doing 50-70 in 4th in under 4 secs his was over 6! Take it back to the dealer and demand some explanations. Have you got your old ECU? Had a look at it? Did the last owner stick a superchip in it or something??
Would be interested to know your outcome.

Your dealer will certainly be able to put the car on the select monitor and go for a run with you.

EvilBevel

I second John's idea about the car maybe not being standard before you brought it in... a backbox alone does not change a lot to performance (removing cats does), so it will not be related to that.

Hoppy is right too: they normally avoid modded cars, maybe to prevent stories like yours from happening.

One small word of advice: get a boost gauge installed, so you can see for yourself what is happening with the boost, and don't have to rely on what the "experts" say. Small investment, gives you quite a lot of info.

And yes, talk to the dealer. If there was a bleedvalve or Superchips on the car before, someone must have noticed/mentioned it.

Theo

Hoppy

Paul, something's not right. The PPP for 99/00 cars is stunning. Who fitted your PPP? The offical line is that it's fitted by Prodrive themselves, and they will not touch anything but an absolutely standard car. So how come they worked on yours with a Micky Mouse back box?

Go talk to your dealer.

Richard.

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Prodrive also give you all your exhaust back if you want it plus the intercooler piping and the old ecu (all bagged up for you )
but they wont touch anything but a standard car, that includes back boxes, (unless its a wr one )
Did you take your car to warwick and get it done???
the improvement is very noticable, as i found out when i had my MY00 done i still have big grins everytime i get in and go for a drive

Tony

paulwadams_my99

Hi,

thanks all for your comments. Whilst it is true that PRODRIVE only upgrade standard cars this does not include the backbox. I checked first and they said it would be ok. They are only interested in the internals such as air filters etc that make a difference, the back box doesn't do much except make noise so i guess they are not bothered. Mine was done so there's proof enough. It was transported to Prodrive, I was told, and its through a completely official dealer who say they are not allowed to fit it.

Very intersteing point about if it was completely standard before though but surely as you all say the dealer would have told me and it wouldn't have been PPP'd. I will have to ask for the old ecu and have a look.

Tell me though, how does the prodrive ecu work? Does each one have to be individually mapped with variables or do they just chuck it in? Surely the dealer is going to say its running within spec and that's it?

I will ring them monday and let you all know.

Trouble is I have never been in another my99 impreza let alone ppp to compare.

Regards

Paul

[This message has been edited by paulwadams_my99 (edited 12 August 2001).]

john banks

From what folk on here who have fitted ECU second hand, it just plugs in.

The long and the short of it is if you are not happy then you want it back as before (presuming it was running safely!). If they are claiming 20% increase in midrange power and torque and you are not getting it then the goods are not as described. Sounds very puzzling though why it is not a HUGE improvement. I have just been out in mine, and doing a few tests of in gear acceleration (approximate) but they might give you an idea if you find a bit of flat road and compare - e.g. 40-60 3rd about 2.5secs, 60-80 3rd under 3 seconds, 50-70 4th under 4 seconds, in 5th about 7 seconds, 30-70 (start in second, change up to 3rd without hitting limiter) under 5 seconds. I deliberately repeated the 40-60 in 3rd a few times as I wondered if it was hesitating as at 3700rpm it really picks up its skirt and flies, and I thought it was a little flat below that, but with figures like that I don't think it is hesitation in my book! Could it be that your car feels slower as it is now more refined than with the old backbox, or is it really that marked a difference? I am going to the dealer on Thursday to make sure there is no overboost/hesitation etc.

Hoppy

Paul, when you get an offical Prodrive Performance Pack fitted, you get a certificate and all your original bits back, neatly packed. They also road test the car. It will run on 95 RON, but is designed for 97 and goes better still with a bottle of Millers booster (99 RON?).

If you've not got a certificate, it's not a pukka Prodrive jobbie and will invalidate your warranty.

Good luck with this. You'll know when you've got it sorted by the huge on your face.

Richard.

john banks

Didn't get certificate as Euro import and they apparently (according to Nobles) don't give you one. Any others told this?

paulwadams_my99

Yep I got the certificate but the dealer didn't offer me all my bits back, although I am going to ring and ask for them today.

It is also running on 97 Ron and pretty much alays has even b4 the ppp.

I just don't know if its me or what but from what people on here say its really noticable. It is definately more refined and smoother and maybe it's that but before it used to shoot up so much faster at 3000rpm with the old ecu. I am going to ring them now and ask them to plug in the old ecu and see if I can re-create the old impression I used to have or wether its all in my mind.

Cheers

Paul

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

I have a euro import my00 and i HAVE a certificate . check under the bonnet, you should have some blue intercooler piping with prodrive written on to the left (as you look into the engine bay).
i think you best have some words with your dealer and see what they playing at, also did they tell you to run your car on 97 ron before taking she went to prodrive or did you not do it??

Tony

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Oh i didnt get my exhaust back, they did ask me if i wanted it but i was happy with the new one but ecu and old piping all wrapped up nice n neat for me
But i did take my car to Prodrive thou

Tony

paulwadams_my99

All concerned,

well i took it to the dealer and talked to Dave. He always seems an honest fellow and has driven many ppp imprezas. He drove it and said that it feels faster than a normal impreza and if he hadn't been told he would know that it was PPP'd. I asked if I could change the ecu but was told that the dump valve settings are changed for the upgrade so putting the old one back in was not really a possibility? Anyone want to comment?

It has the intercooler piping and I am in no doubt that it is a true genuine PPP upgrade. This makes me question myself, Prodrive wouldn't return the car if it didn't pass all their checks would they? I just wish they handed that information to you or dyno tested it before and after.

On the way there I thought to myself is this me. After all I have been on Holiday for 2 weeks and perhaps I had forgotten how it did exactly drive?

It definately feels much more powerful at the top end and I counted the spedo up the clock as I floored it and the timings arn't that much different as stated by John, I wish I had taken them before.

In summary I am going to keep the upgrade because the car just feels so much smoother and easier to drive.

I wonder if its possible my last ECU was overboosting, it did cut out quite a few times with the old brick wall symptom?

So is that it then for upgardes under warranty? has anyone let their warranty run out and added to the PPP? Anyone fitted an induction air filter and the like and removed it for services? Just curious?

johnfelstead

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>I asked if I could change the ecu but was told that the dump valve settings are changed for the upgrade so putting the old one back in was not really a possibility? Anyone want to comment?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yep. Thats a complete fob off!

If prodrive do uprate the BOV then that will work perfectly well with your old ECU. It's an upgrade, not a downgrade from standard!!

I hate it when these companies fob people off with bull****!

Now if he meant the waste gate actuator, then thats a diferent thing entirely. I dont know if they swap that for a PPP though?

EvilBevel

John, quick answer ... they don't.

Long answer will have to wait after dinner

Stay tuned. Have to think about wording this so nobody feels done short...

Theo

weatherman

Is the PPP for the MY97-98 just as "stunning"? It's exactly that mid-range I want to improve eg 50-70 in 4th etc.

Stuart

paulwadams_my99

Well this is starting to make me uneasy.

The only way to settle this is a rr session i think. I think the closest to me is Performance Turbos, Luton unless anyone knows different? Live in biggleswade, bedfordshire. As soon as I get the graphs I will post them up and we can compare against other my99 PPP.

Again if Prodrive did a RR before and after surely they would see these kinds of mistakes etc and cause much less stress. Can't see how they wouldn't be an improvement on a standard car unless something was wrong. Not saying that there is anything wrong with mine mind, it may still well be me! Probably is, but lets get the RR done anyway.

[This message has been edited by paulwadams_my99 (edited 14 August 2001).]

paulwadams_my99

Booked in at PE for the 25th. People seem to think that this would be the best people to compare.

Adam M

Paul,

dont go to pe on the 25th. there is a rolling road day this sat, and loads of us are going. It will giove you a chance to talk in person to people who can help you. I am certain for example that bob rawle will be there.

If you want the personal attention then fair enough, but why not kill two birds with one stone. It is normally cheaper too.

Avoid pts like the plague. They gave my car 250bhp and 230 lbft. power engineering the following week on a hotter day returned 303 and 279.

paulwadams_my99

Adam,

where is the rolling road session this saturday, point me to the details please. At PE?

Cheers

Paul.

[This message has been edited by paulwadams_my99 (edited 14 August 2001).]

bob

Rolling road this Saturdays is at

EvilBevel

OK, as promised, my thoughts/speculations about this (long dinner eh ).

Warning: I'm in no way an expert, but the following may be not far off the mark nonetheless.

Standard UK cars normally have about 0.9 bar boost max in the midrange, dropping to 0.7 bar at higher revs. Most bog standard Scoobs will have this boost curve and produce similar power.

Some cars however produce quite a bit more power without being tuned. Mainly because for one reason or the other, they produce a bit more boost. This can go as high as 1.2 bar in midrange RPM. The fuelcut safety on a MY99 normally comes in at about 1.2 bar if held for more than 2 seconds. (I may be 0.05 bar out on all this).

Most owners who encounter this find it very annoying/scary, and ask their dealer to solve this. Most of the time, this is done by cleaning some pipework around the boost solenoid and the wastegate actuator, and sometimes fitting a larger brass restrictor (larger hole in it I mean) in the little hose that goes from the turbo outlet to the "T" piece. Car will make a bit less boost this way, so a bit slower, but problem goes away.

Disclaimer: I KNOW that boost isn't everything, but 0.9 bar boost versus 1.2 bar boost is quite a difference - not so much in BHP (because in both cases boost will drop in the higher rev range), but mostly in midrange torque.

I don't know the secrets of the PPP - only Prodrive does -, but as far as my information goes, boost is normally upped from 0.9 bar to about 1.15 bar. OK, maybe they do wonders with ignition & fuelling, but because they will want to make it safe, they will not alter these params too much (i.e., lean out or advance ignition) because of the risk of det, especially on NUL.

Now just imagine that your car was - for whatever reason - boosting to 1.15 bar and on cold days to 1.2 bar already (hence the fuelcuts): fitting a PPP would make it a bit smoother, but it would feel just as strong, or even a bit less strong.

I'm not trying to discredit PPP's or whatever, and I'm not saying that boost is everything (au contraire), but I am speculating on a possible reason for what you are experiencing.

Good idea to go to Power Engineering (see banners for address etc), but don't get hooked up on rolling road numbers... they are just that. But ask someone who has driven both standard and PPP'd scoobs, and ask them what they think of the performance. Maybe it's in your head, but maybe it isn't...

Oh, and I will again stress the importance of fitting a boost gauge, so you know what is going on

Finally, they will of course not alter the wastegate actuator or the boost solenoid (I hope ), but may have fitted another restrictor to change the boost curve ...

HTH,

Theo

[spelling edit]

[This message has been edited by EvilBevel (edited 14 August 2001).]

Matt Churchill

Don't mean to hijack thread, but, just wondering how many people have put on a PPP, then gone fully decatted on the exhuast - good or bad idea?

Having got a Scoobysport system, just wondered if it is worth changing back to standard, then putting exhaust and induction kit back after change?

Matt

bob

EvilBevel/
Hi
I think you have it about right mate. You only have to look at Andy Tang’s car with a boost controller STD ECU and PPP ECU gave about the same power outputs. So it was all down to the boost he held and not the ECU. The MY98 is well known for overboosting. Perhaps this is why we have never seen a MY98 PPP with more Power than a STD MY98.
Matt/
You will see large gains with the ScoobySport System on top of the PPP.
Paul/
Come down to PE on Sat and if you cannot get on you can have my place. I have been through the same problems as you and know how frustrating it is.


[This message has been edited by bob (edited 14 August 2001).]

paulwadams_my99

thank you everyone for your comments.

These are the joys of not owning a car from new. Based on your comments EvilBevel these are a couple of the symptoms my car experienced before the upgrade. Occassionally if i floored it from 2500 rpm it would like stick, boost up like it was being held back slightly and then shoot off again at 5000 rpm, it did this a fair few times. Also about 3 times it completely shut off at about 4000rpm I think. Does this sound like overboosting? does seem like it. What worries me is if it is so easy to have a ecu upgrade and that even Subaru don't notice it. Maybe the guy before me had it chipped and I have sacrificed a perfectly good, hidden gem. I have asked for it back hopefully they will give me it. They still claim I cannot just plug it back in. can i or can't I?

I may just do that on saturday, let me see if I can arrange it. If I can get the other ecu then that would be good.

cheers all

Paul

EvilBevel

LOL, the joys of owning a Scoob

The 2500 rpm /boost sticking thing is another "problem" altogether ... This was in 2nd gear right ? Long story short: Pete Croney told us first this is a little "trick" in the standard ECU to pass emmission laws. 0.5 bar boost all the way Nothing to do with overboosting, all standard scoobs do this on occasion. Can be scary at times, but not related to the topic at hand. Do a search on this for the full story.

The 4000 RPM cut-out (where you would produce your max boost/torque), yes, that is overboosting. So you could say your car was definitely running more than 1.15 bar at times.

Believe me or not, I don't think your car was chipped before BTW.

OK, remember that free advice is worth what you pay for it, so feel free to totally disregard the next sentence, OK ?

Right then, in MY opinion, you should be able to run with your old ECU again without damaging your engine. Worst that could happen is that you experience more fuel cuts than before. Fuel cuts/ignition cuts are bad for your drivetrain (gearbox) BTW...

But wait ... there's a lot more to this. Before I make a complete fool out of myself (oh-err), remember that we are now in summer, and therefor your car will not boost as high as on a cold winter day. There are so many parameters, hard to think of every one of them when posting.

Did you drive your non-PPP'd car in winter ? If not, chances are it overboosted like mad in winter...

Mail me if this is getting to confusing. The PPP is a tried and true package that increases performance to about 250 BHP / 350 NM (from 218 BHP/290 NM) on a bog standard MY99/00. If your car was producing more boost than "normal", it may have been as powerful as this before you PPP'd it. Question is then: was it safe/drivable before ? Not for me to answer. I'm not an expert.

Maybe I should have summed it up and say : go to the PE meet Meeting fellow Scoobynet members is always a joy, and things may become clearer after some banter.

Oh, and fitting the boost gauge is really a top tip LOL

Theo

bob

I had the PossumLink on my last car that is a replacement ECU like the PPP. I changed ECU’s from STD to Link many times with no problems.
When my dealer changed my PPP back to STD they had no problems. They done it in a few mins. They also fitted the PPP back on my car then removed it yet again as I was getting Rolling Road figs for STD and PPP.
I wonder why it had to go all the way to Prodrive costing me another £300 when my dealer could do it anyway.

paulwadams_my99

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by bob:
<B>
I wonder why it had to go all the way to Prodrive costing me another £300 when my dealer could do it anyway. [/quote]

This is it. they seem authorised to work on it once its fitted but not fit it in the first place? Even if this means taking it out and putting it back in again. I guess thats so you get the supposed same standard of quality everytime?

john banks

This going to Prodrive thing sounds a load of nonsense since my dealer fitted it semi-officially. I have no mechanical skills to speak of but wouldn't flinch at changing over an ECU and a centre section & back box. Don't know about the intercooler hosing, but it can't really be that tricky! As far as I could see it was plug in select monitor, check all correct, then install bits, go for drive with select monitor attached, give customer old bits, take £1763. All done in not much more than 1.5 hours! There was no mapping or tuning as such that was going on.

[This message has been edited by john banks (edited 14 August 2001).]

bob

Paul/
I have had a look through the Dyno site for any info I can find on the MY99/00 PPP
First I find
Jason Jarvis who has 240 bhp as STD
Then with PPP he has 252 bhp so a gain of 12 bhp with the PPP. To be fair he did have 249 lbs/ft of torque. A 20 + lbs/ft gain.
But up the ladder further I find Lee Christie who gets 252 bhp and 252 torque with a £5 bleed valve. Otherwise STD motor.
Then Tim Taylor with a full exhaust and filter gets 258 bhp.
There are a number of cars with just as well a bhp as the PPP cars with just an BB exhaust change. And with a full exhaust change even better results.
The highest is Andy Tang who has 280 bhp with a PPP car and boost controller. But a few weeks ago Andy put his car back on the rollers and got about the same with the STD ECU. It seems the boost counts with this car.
So you saying the car is no more powerful you may be right you could have had the same power before as you have now.
Now for this info that will be £2000 please.
Have a look at: