Is a VF22 Turbo......
03 July 2001, 03:06 PM
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yes it could, but it would be of questionnable worth.
Why spend so much on an uprated turbo when you retain all the restrictions of catalytic converters?
there are fantastic gains to be had from removing these.
If you install this turbo after that, you run the risk of the car running too lean on boost, if you are running the standard ecu.
This will increase the risk of det. It would be reduced further by teh use of a front mounted intercooler, but you would be far better off spending the money on a remappalble ecu, otherwise you cannot properly and safely reap the benefits of other performance mods.
Why spend so much on an uprated turbo when you retain all the restrictions of catalytic converters?
there are fantastic gains to be had from removing these.
If you install this turbo after that, you run the risk of the car running too lean on boost, if you are running the standard ecu.
This will increase the risk of det. It would be reduced further by teh use of a front mounted intercooler, but you would be far better off spending the money on a remappalble ecu, otherwise you cannot properly and safely reap the benefits of other performance mods.
03 July 2001, 03:47 PM
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Now, now then boys 
Thanks for the input, Adam. I was planning on a FMIC first then I saw the VF22 in the Sales forum and it got me thinking 
I know that Nito runs a big HKS turbo with his FMIC and standard ecu so wondered if the VF22 would do the same. For the record, I have no cats and an HKS EVC IV boost controller at the moment.
Thanks for the input, Adam. I was planning on a FMIC first then I saw the VF22 in the Sales forum and it got me thinking I know that Nito runs a big HKS turbo with his FMIC and standard ecu so wondered if the VF22 would do the same. For the record, I have no cats and an HKS EVC IV boost controller at the moment.
03 July 2001, 04:56 PM
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raymond, forgive my mistake, craig is right, shooting my mouth off.
Everything i said stands, more so in fact.
With exhaust mods etc you have already used some off the buffer zone created by the rich running of the jecs, and so would risk running lean.
Also with the mods you are talking you are coming close to the theoretical 300bhp limit of the standard 380cc inhectors that your car runs.
With exhaust in place, I would not risk doing what you are suggesting (although funnily enough I am doing exactly that myself - since my new ecu hasnt arrived yet).
I genuinely believe Nito has been lucky tat his car is not running lean. He has had it on a gas analyzer and it is supposed to be safely rich enough.
I cant understand how, but it is the case.
this does not mean you will be as lucky.
An ebc or evc will do the job of controlling your boost as in nitos case, but given that you will need to alter the fuelling, you would be better off with a full ecu.
A unichip would do it too, but once again you need a decent boost control, and prices start getting close to new ecus anyway.
Since you are planning to spend the money elsewhere, there is no harm in considering the ecu as the best upgrade for you, before the other stuff you mention.
I am doing what you have suggested armed with 440 injectors and a lambda link, and I will be expecting my car to run very lean. I will also be keeping a very keen eye on it and taking it very easy until My map will accomodate.
Incidentally, when not on boost, the jecs runs in closed loop lambda mode, meaning it automatically oscillates between rich and lean, averaging out at a perfect stoichimetric mix. This means that your car will adapt on its own to these mods, so long as you are not on boost, ie. at cruise.
If you want to risk this, then be sure to fit a lambda link first and understand what it is telling you, when and why!
incidentally have a word with danny fisher.
he runs an english car with a very interesting turbo to awesome effect.
[This message has been edited by Adam M (edited 03 July 2001).]
Everything i said stands, more so in fact.
With exhaust mods etc you have already used some off the buffer zone created by the rich running of the jecs, and so would risk running lean.
Also with the mods you are talking you are coming close to the theoretical 300bhp limit of the standard 380cc inhectors that your car runs.
With exhaust in place, I would not risk doing what you are suggesting (although funnily enough I am doing exactly that myself - since my new ecu hasnt arrived yet).
I genuinely believe Nito has been lucky tat his car is not running lean. He has had it on a gas analyzer and it is supposed to be safely rich enough.
I cant understand how, but it is the case.
this does not mean you will be as lucky.
An ebc or evc will do the job of controlling your boost as in nitos case, but given that you will need to alter the fuelling, you would be better off with a full ecu.
A unichip would do it too, but once again you need a decent boost control, and prices start getting close to new ecus anyway.
Since you are planning to spend the money elsewhere, there is no harm in considering the ecu as the best upgrade for you, before the other stuff you mention.
I am doing what you have suggested armed with 440 injectors and a lambda link, and I will be expecting my car to run very lean. I will also be keeping a very keen eye on it and taking it very easy until My map will accomodate.
Incidentally, when not on boost, the jecs runs in closed loop lambda mode, meaning it automatically oscillates between rich and lean, averaging out at a perfect stoichimetric mix. This means that your car will adapt on its own to these mods, so long as you are not on boost, ie. at cruise.
If you want to risk this, then be sure to fit a lambda link first and understand what it is telling you, when and why!
incidentally have a word with danny fisher.
he runs an english car with a very interesting turbo to awesome effect.
[This message has been edited by Adam M (edited 03 July 2001).]
03 July 2001, 09:44 PM
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Adam, what am I running? A VF22!
Ray, I can recommend a VF22, but a hybrid one. NOT a straight VF22. Too laggy.
You would need a programmable ecu to compensate, and bigger injectors. Mine are almost max'd out.
Dan
[This message has been edited by Danny Fisher (edited 03 July 2001).]
Ray, I can recommend a VF22, but a hybrid one. NOT a straight VF22. Too laggy.
You would need a programmable ecu to compensate, and bigger injectors. Mine are almost max'd out.
Dan
[This message has been edited by Danny Fisher (edited 03 July 2001).]
03 July 2001, 11:59 PM
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Does the UK spec MY99/00 have the same 380cc injectors as the MY98?
WREXY
[This message has been edited by WREXY (edited 04 July 2001).]
WREXY
[This message has been edited by WREXY (edited 04 July 2001).]
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04 July 2001, 05:35 PM
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I don't think I've been "lucky" at all Adam,
if it were running dangerously lean I can assure you with the use it gets it would have gone boom a long time ago. Interesting that you describe the 380cc injectors as having a "theoretical limit of 300bhp". I've shown that in "practice" they can cope perfectly with over 300bhp.
It's not running lean in the least, all the scaremongering about adding exhaust/filters etc making your cars run much leaner has been shown repeatedly to be untrue. We're referring to UK cars here and not Jap imports which are setup to run on much higher octane fuel. If you were running our UK cars on 92 octane then I dare say you would be risking your engine, but bear in mind that our UK cars are properly setup to work in the uk with either 95 or 97 octane and run incredibly rich anyway, (judging by my fuel consumption, flames, and the rolling road gas analyzer its running plenty rich...even over 6500 rpm!!) as opposed to an STi which should run on 101 octane or so and are being run here at 97 octane.
Although Danny's injectors are maxing out at around 300bhp or thereabouts he's running a link and not a jecs ecu so who's to say the same is true with jecs. Plus, this theoretical 300 bhp for 380cc injectors...is this the limit for tuning with an ecu alone? Or does this include the extra power released by much better cooling from an fmic and a cooler larger and more efficient turbo? My car is still producing all this power from less than 1.2bar of boost...so I wouldn't call it luck..rather having the proper hardware in place, it certainly doesn't come cheap.
If you read elsewhere Bob has put up a post saying that the std 380cc injectors are fine upto 1.2bar.
You keep making these statements about cars running lean, unsafe etc...what more proof do you need...mine isn't the only one to show excellent results with the evc, its not like it's a freak car. I don't run octane booster either since my map doesn't necessitate this. Sure, if you want to be reliant on octane boosters then you'll get more out of a remap, I dare say you'll get more torque out of a remap too, however safety-wise, upto 1.2bar the jecs ecu copes perfectly well on a uk car, regardless of having a larger turbo. The hks turbine on mine is similar in size to a vf22, but as Danny says, being a hybrid it's more suited to our cars as it spools up quicker.
In answer to your question Raymond, I wouldn't say the vf22 is the one to go for on a uk car. Like Danny says, go for a hybrid of some kind. Without going to extremes, the VF23 would release a bit more power while maintaining a fairly decent compromise between spool up and top end. Running with the egt meter like you are already you should soon tell if your running into any problems and it's always wise to have it checked on an RR anyway.
Rgds
Nito
if it were running dangerously lean I can assure you with the use it gets it would have gone boom a long time ago. Interesting that you describe the 380cc injectors as having a "theoretical limit of 300bhp". I've shown that in "practice" they can cope perfectly with over 300bhp.
It's not running lean in the least, all the scaremongering about adding exhaust/filters etc making your cars run much leaner has been shown repeatedly to be untrue. We're referring to UK cars here and not Jap imports which are setup to run on much higher octane fuel. If you were running our UK cars on 92 octane then I dare say you would be risking your engine, but bear in mind that our UK cars are properly setup to work in the uk with either 95 or 97 octane and run incredibly rich anyway, (judging by my fuel consumption, flames, and the rolling road gas analyzer its running plenty rich...even over 6500 rpm!!) as opposed to an STi which should run on 101 octane or so and are being run here at 97 octane.
Although Danny's injectors are maxing out at around 300bhp or thereabouts he's running a link and not a jecs ecu so who's to say the same is true with jecs. Plus, this theoretical 300 bhp for 380cc injectors...is this the limit for tuning with an ecu alone? Or does this include the extra power released by much better cooling from an fmic and a cooler larger and more efficient turbo? My car is still producing all this power from less than 1.2bar of boost...so I wouldn't call it luck..rather having the proper hardware in place, it certainly doesn't come cheap.
If you read elsewhere Bob has put up a post saying that the std 380cc injectors are fine upto 1.2bar.
You keep making these statements about cars running lean, unsafe etc...what more proof do you need...mine isn't the only one to show excellent results with the evc, its not like it's a freak car. I don't run octane booster either since my map doesn't necessitate this. Sure, if you want to be reliant on octane boosters then you'll get more out of a remap, I dare say you'll get more torque out of a remap too, however safety-wise, upto 1.2bar the jecs ecu copes perfectly well on a uk car, regardless of having a larger turbo. The hks turbine on mine is similar in size to a vf22, but as Danny says, being a hybrid it's more suited to our cars as it spools up quicker.
In answer to your question Raymond, I wouldn't say the vf22 is the one to go for on a uk car. Like Danny says, go for a hybrid of some kind. Without going to extremes, the VF23 would release a bit more power while maintaining a fairly decent compromise between spool up and top end. Running with the egt meter like you are already you should soon tell if your running into any problems and it's always wise to have it checked on an RR anyway.
Rgds
Nito
05 July 2001, 11:09 AM
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Edited since I can't be bothered to get into this and do agree with you, over 300bhp it would be wiser to have larger injectors than 380cc, I don't dispute this! I disagree with much of everything else that has been said though regarding evc's and fmic/larger turbos and cars running lean. I maintain that the evc properly setup is one of the safest tuning mods to a uk car and that running 1.2bar is fine, with the std turbo and ecu and probably with a larger turbo when coupled with a decent intercooler. If people want to fit bigger injectors then it's probably a good ideas too!
Rgds
Nito
[This message has been edited by NITO (edited 05 July 2001).]
Rgds
Nito
[This message has been edited by NITO (edited 05 July 2001).]
05 July 2001, 12:27 PM
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Nito,
I know I'm banging my head against a brick wall:BUT, Neither I, or anyone else is claiming, or suggesting that your car is running lean. We're talking about the ability of the injectors to SAFELY flow the amount of fuel needed for figures in excess of 300bhp, let alone 326bhp. 380cc injectors can't, they will be wide open, and not pulsing at all. This has nothing to do with AFR's, or CO's.
You seem to be under the impression that "1.2bar" of boost, is safe to run, regardless of what parts are used to achieve it. You have proved what the effects of a large turbo, and FMIC can do, yet seem unable to comprehend the difference of running 1.2bar on a TD04, and running 1.2bar on a hybrid Garret (or similar) and a FMIC.
Now the fact that your car is still running fine, after many miles, means SH*T, in the same way as someone telling us it's ok to run 1.6bar on standard internals is ok "because he does, and HIS car's fine".
You have taken Bob Rawles "1.2bar" comments out of context, and whilst you are entitled to do what you want with your own car, you are giving VERY BAD ADVICE to others.
Now you show me that your injectors are running at a safe 85% duty cycle, and first I'll put an apology up on the bbs, then I'll give £100 to a charity of your choice.....
Mark.
I know I'm banging my head against a brick wall:BUT, Neither I, or anyone else is claiming, or suggesting that your car is running lean. We're talking about the ability of the injectors to SAFELY flow the amount of fuel needed for figures in excess of 300bhp, let alone 326bhp. 380cc injectors can't, they will be wide open, and not pulsing at all. This has nothing to do with AFR's, or CO's.
You seem to be under the impression that "1.2bar" of boost, is safe to run, regardless of what parts are used to achieve it. You have proved what the effects of a large turbo, and FMIC can do, yet seem unable to comprehend the difference of running 1.2bar on a TD04, and running 1.2bar on a hybrid Garret (or similar) and a FMIC.
Now the fact that your car is still running fine, after many miles, means SH*T, in the same way as someone telling us it's ok to run 1.6bar on standard internals is ok "because he does, and HIS car's fine".
You have taken Bob Rawles "1.2bar" comments out of context, and whilst you are entitled to do what you want with your own car, you are giving VERY BAD ADVICE to others.
Now you show me that your injectors are running at a safe 85% duty cycle, and first I'll put an apology up on the bbs, then I'll give £100 to a charity of your choice.....
Mark.
05 July 2001, 02:58 PM
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danny,
I knew you had a VF22, it was the hybrid part of it that I was drawing attention to.
Nito,
when i said you were lucky, I was implying that your car seems to be spurious in that it is able to run what it is running without the injectors failing.
Well done. but I dont think every car will achieve this.
i hate to mention this in front of Mark, but read Corky Bell's maximum boost. It will explain from proven theories that for x amount of horsepower, you need y amount of air. Simple as that.
If you want to run safely rich you need to mix that air with enough fuel. Now regardless of how your engine is managing this, the amount of fuel needed to maintin the new fuel/air mix required for 300bhp is much greater than 380 injectors can put out at a safe 85% duty cycle.
Forget maps, air temps etc, ron ratings etc.
Your car is managing it somehow, and in that respect I think you have been lucky.
On another note, if you can accept that your turbo is more efficient at 1.2 than the standard turbo, you will know it is flowing much cooler air. Cooler air is more dense, therefore the mass of air in the cylinder will be greater meaning you need more fuel.
how much more fuel depends on the difference between the turbos. If you put on an enormous turbo do you still think the jecs and standard injectors will cope?
I dont understand how you can make a sweeping statement that all uk cars can run sufficiently rich to cope with bigger turbos, it simply isnt true. There are vast differences between how rich the cars run. Some may cope with the extra fuel requirement, others may not.
On top of this a front mounted intercooler, although it may reduce the chance of det, it will require even more fuel than a less efficient intercooler.
It is still wrong to advise people that their cars will be fine if they choose the correct equipment, without correcting the fuelling. I certainly wouldn't want a blown engine on my conscience.
This is not meant as a personal attack, so please dont take it that way, but without raising these issues, people may be lulled into a false of security and make a very expensive mistake.
[This message has been edited by Adam M (edited 05 July 2001).]
I knew you had a VF22, it was the hybrid part of it that I was drawing attention to.
Nito,
when i said you were lucky, I was implying that your car seems to be spurious in that it is able to run what it is running without the injectors failing.
Well done. but I dont think every car will achieve this.
i hate to mention this in front of Mark, but read Corky Bell's maximum boost. It will explain from proven theories that for x amount of horsepower, you need y amount of air. Simple as that.
If you want to run safely rich you need to mix that air with enough fuel. Now regardless of how your engine is managing this, the amount of fuel needed to maintin the new fuel/air mix required for 300bhp is much greater than 380 injectors can put out at a safe 85% duty cycle.
Forget maps, air temps etc, ron ratings etc.
Your car is managing it somehow, and in that respect I think you have been lucky.
On another note, if you can accept that your turbo is more efficient at 1.2 than the standard turbo, you will know it is flowing much cooler air. Cooler air is more dense, therefore the mass of air in the cylinder will be greater meaning you need more fuel.
how much more fuel depends on the difference between the turbos. If you put on an enormous turbo do you still think the jecs and standard injectors will cope?
I dont understand how you can make a sweeping statement that all uk cars can run sufficiently rich to cope with bigger turbos, it simply isnt true. There are vast differences between how rich the cars run. Some may cope with the extra fuel requirement, others may not.
On top of this a front mounted intercooler, although it may reduce the chance of det, it will require even more fuel than a less efficient intercooler.
It is still wrong to advise people that their cars will be fine if they choose the correct equipment, without correcting the fuelling. I certainly wouldn't want a blown engine on my conscience.
This is not meant as a personal attack, so please dont take it that way, but without raising these issues, people may be lulled into a false of security and make a very expensive mistake.
[This message has been edited by Adam M (edited 05 July 2001).]
05 July 2001, 04:26 PM
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Adam,
Many uk cars used to suffer from overboost, before many of them were subsequently restricted. Mine used to suffer from this and would run upto 1.25bar when the fuel cut would then cut in as a safety feature, however the car was trying to boost to 1.35bar. If Subaru have fitted the failsafe at around the 1.2bar mark, some hit this fuel cut earlier and some later, then I seriously doubt it's beyond the ecu's capability to supply enough fuel for this altered air/fuel mix.
A UK car does run extremely rich. It's a fact. Running just under 1.2bar isn't a ridiculous amount of boost, its like 0.15bar more than standard. Jap spec cars in the meantime are running more than this as standard on our crap fuel! SO based on what many UK cars have shown and not just mine, the std uk ecu seems to cope fine at 1.2bar of boost, this is what I'm saying, it's a substantiated statement supported by fact and further supported by my car as a prime example of a uk ecu taken to the extreme and still delivering while still having maintained reliability running for pretty much 60,000 miles like this.
I apologise for others on this BBS for having to read this, I probably won't post anymore on the topic of evc's and uk cars tuning, frankly its getting boring having to justify the safety of my car and indeed what power it's producing from the various threads in the past but at the same time I like to give people a balanced view based on experience with these, rather than slating them without any.
From all the cars which have been tested running the evc..they've all still run excessively rich on the gas analyser. I'm not making a sweeping statement that all uk cars can run big turbo etc without any remaps and I'm not knocking re-maps, I do feel however that you are underestimating the std ecu, possibly as much as you feel that I'm overestimating it.
The whole point of this bbs is for people to share experiences, this is merely what I'm doing, I'm not saying to people to take it as gospel, people take it what information is available and run what they want to run, I have always tried to give as much data and figures to help others as possible (EGT temps, oil temps CO2 levels, inlet temps, etc..) so my conscience is clear.
Any tuning will "theoretically" eat into the cars safety margin anyway and I think most people are aware of this.
Mark,
You say it doesn't mean SH*T that mine is still running perfectly, maybe not to you, but to someone considering this route it may be a useful barometer for them to measure how reliable it is compared to "other" mods. I understand what you are getting at with injectors and not disputing that it's not wiser to run larger ones over 300bhp..I can't comment since I haven't yet tried it so I'll reserve opinion until then. However, all I can say is that I'm extremely happy with the power mine makes and the way it runs.
If a std ecu's fuelling can cope taken to this extreme, and many other std ecu's have also coped fine around the 280bhp mark, I simply can't see what all the fuss is about, although it's always a wise precaution to check each car on the rolling road for fuelling which is something I've always said.
It's much easier to sow the seeds of doubt than to remove them!! - but at least it makes people think more before embarking on any mods which is always a good thing!
rgds
Nito
Many uk cars used to suffer from overboost, before many of them were subsequently restricted. Mine used to suffer from this and would run upto 1.25bar when the fuel cut would then cut in as a safety feature, however the car was trying to boost to 1.35bar. If Subaru have fitted the failsafe at around the 1.2bar mark, some hit this fuel cut earlier and some later, then I seriously doubt it's beyond the ecu's capability to supply enough fuel for this altered air/fuel mix.
A UK car does run extremely rich. It's a fact. Running just under 1.2bar isn't a ridiculous amount of boost, its like 0.15bar more than standard. Jap spec cars in the meantime are running more than this as standard on our crap fuel! SO based on what many UK cars have shown and not just mine, the std uk ecu seems to cope fine at 1.2bar of boost, this is what I'm saying, it's a substantiated statement supported by fact and further supported by my car as a prime example of a uk ecu taken to the extreme and still delivering while still having maintained reliability running for pretty much 60,000 miles like this.
I apologise for others on this BBS for having to read this, I probably won't post anymore on the topic of evc's and uk cars tuning, frankly its getting boring having to justify the safety of my car and indeed what power it's producing from the various threads in the past but at the same time I like to give people a balanced view based on experience with these, rather than slating them without any.
From all the cars which have been tested running the evc..they've all still run excessively rich on the gas analyser. I'm not making a sweeping statement that all uk cars can run big turbo etc without any remaps and I'm not knocking re-maps, I do feel however that you are underestimating the std ecu, possibly as much as you feel that I'm overestimating it.
The whole point of this bbs is for people to share experiences, this is merely what I'm doing, I'm not saying to people to take it as gospel, people take it what information is available and run what they want to run, I have always tried to give as much data and figures to help others as possible (EGT temps, oil temps CO2 levels, inlet temps, etc..) so my conscience is clear.
Any tuning will "theoretically" eat into the cars safety margin anyway and I think most people are aware of this.
Mark,
You say it doesn't mean SH*T that mine is still running perfectly, maybe not to you, but to someone considering this route it may be a useful barometer for them to measure how reliable it is compared to "other" mods. I understand what you are getting at with injectors and not disputing that it's not wiser to run larger ones over 300bhp..I can't comment since I haven't yet tried it so I'll reserve opinion until then. However, all I can say is that I'm extremely happy with the power mine makes and the way it runs.
If a std ecu's fuelling can cope taken to this extreme, and many other std ecu's have also coped fine around the 280bhp mark, I simply can't see what all the fuss is about, although it's always a wise precaution to check each car on the rolling road for fuelling which is something I've always said.
It's much easier to sow the seeds of doubt than to remove them!! - but at least it makes people think more before embarking on any mods which is always a good thing!
rgds
Nito
05 July 2001, 04:49 PM
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I am going to give up on this soon, as the more you repeat what you are saying the more people will start to believe you so i hope I can make this point finally without you restating your point.
Running 1.2 bar on a standard turbo is not the same as running 1.2 bar on a bigger turbo, therefore the fact that subaru put a fuel cut in at that point is irrelevant.
1.2 bar is not just 1.2 bar. More efficient, bigger turbo means lower temp, means higher mass of air in cylinder = more fuel.
FMIC means lower temps, means higher mass of air in cylinder = more fuel.
There is only so rich the jecs runs as standard, regardless of ron ratings.
Simple, so please don't misinform people.
Anyway it is better err on the side of caution if it means saving engines.
Running 1.2 bar on a standard turbo is not the same as running 1.2 bar on a bigger turbo, therefore the fact that subaru put a fuel cut in at that point is irrelevant.
1.2 bar is not just 1.2 bar. More efficient, bigger turbo means lower temp, means higher mass of air in cylinder = more fuel.
FMIC means lower temps, means higher mass of air in cylinder = more fuel.
There is only so rich the jecs runs as standard, regardless of ron ratings.
Simple, so please don't misinform people.
Anyway it is better err on the side of caution if it means saving engines.
05 July 2001, 05:27 PM
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My sti5 has a hybrid VF22, runs 1.5 bar of boost and holds 1.4 bar. I believe mine goes into the low 90%'s - not too close to the max.
Saying that I may have to change them once the water injection is up and running?
Surprised no-ones really gone on about this before - they were the first mod I did to my Escort Cosworth to allow the power to go above 280bhp!
They aint cheap though on the Scooby!
Saying that I may have to change them once the water injection is up and running?
Surprised no-ones really gone on about this before - they were the first mod I did to my Escort Cosworth to allow the power to go above 280bhp!
They aint cheap though on the Scooby!
05 July 2001, 05:40 PM
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Adam,
I was referring to a std turbo at 1.2bar...even though I run my larger turbo at 1.2bar! This has been carrying on for a few threads, so I apologise if I have been "misleading" anyone!
I think an evc is safe with a STD turbo on a UK car at 1.18bar. I'm not denying that the injectors maybe stretched with a larger turbo!!! I only said that mine is ok.
The way you've been going on about evc's etc has been applicable to the smaller turbo in a different thread.
So to lay this to rest finally...is there a general agreement that a UK turbo running de-catted exhaust and induction, std jecs and std turbo is safe at 1.18bar for fuelling? This is the main point I've been making. I believe it is..and from what I've seen...this is one of the things you have been disputing. If you disagree then it's just a case of agreeing to differ because we'll always be at logger heads on this!
Running this same spec with a larger turbo may well be stretching the injectors...I don't dispute this, I know my injectors are probably maxxing out which is why I made Mark an offer ages back on his injectors. However my car has been fine to date with no safety issues and I'm content to run like this..In my opinion, on my car etc usual disclaimers apply!!
I really hope this clarifies things somewhat...
Nito
I was referring to a std turbo at 1.2bar...even though I run my larger turbo at 1.2bar! This has been carrying on for a few threads, so I apologise if I have been "misleading" anyone!
I think an evc is safe with a STD turbo on a UK car at 1.18bar. I'm not denying that the injectors maybe stretched with a larger turbo!!! I only said that mine is ok.
The way you've been going on about evc's etc has been applicable to the smaller turbo in a different thread.
So to lay this to rest finally...is there a general agreement that a UK turbo running de-catted exhaust and induction, std jecs and std turbo is safe at 1.18bar for fuelling? This is the main point I've been making. I believe it is..and from what I've seen...this is one of the things you have been disputing. If you disagree then it's just a case of agreeing to differ because we'll always be at logger heads on this!
Running this same spec with a larger turbo may well be stretching the injectors...I don't dispute this, I know my injectors are probably maxxing out which is why I made Mark an offer ages back on his injectors. However my car has been fine to date with no safety issues and I'm content to run like this..In my opinion, on my car etc usual disclaimers apply!!
I really hope this clarifies things somewhat...
Nito
05 July 2001, 05:47 PM
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Nito,
that is more like it. You were implying that the turbo and fmic made no difference.
I would tend to agree with you on this, but I wouldn't rely on it 100%, no harm in putting in a lambda link to check everything is okay, but jecs should be able to compensate at 1.18 bar with standard turbo.
that is more like it. You were implying that the turbo and fmic made no difference.
I would tend to agree with you on this, but I wouldn't rely on it 100%, no harm in putting in a lambda link to check everything is okay, but jecs should be able to compensate at 1.18 bar with standard turbo.
05 July 2001, 06:17 PM
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Nito,
I'm just concerned about the safety of peoples cars. The main problem, is that you don't have the means to check on injector %'s, by just using an EVC. Like Adam said, it's not about AFR's, co's, or RON ratings, they are a totally different issue.
Also, in no way was I knocking your choice of tuning kit. EVC's are fine, and I LOVE BIG turbo's, and FMIC's.
Anyway, I hope there are no hard feelings, and if nothing else, you understand the intentions of my posts.....
Mark. ps. so who mailed you
I'm just concerned about the safety of peoples cars. The main problem, is that you don't have the means to check on injector %'s, by just using an EVC. Like Adam said, it's not about AFR's, co's, or RON ratings, they are a totally different issue.
Also, in no way was I knocking your choice of tuning kit. EVC's are fine, and I LOVE BIG turbo's, and FMIC's.
Anyway, I hope there are no hard feelings, and if nothing else, you understand the intentions of my posts.....
Mark. ps. so who mailed you
05 July 2001, 09:31 PM
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This may be a daft question, but.....
There are obviously quite a few knowledgable people out there re this type of subject.
How come Nitos car, is one of the more powerful ones out there? With 3 bolt ons?
And why are we still so far behind Australia in this field?
People may slate them and say the power they get isn't reliable. At least they get that power - we don't seem to be able to break 330hp - apart from 1 or 2 cars.
Why is this?
There are obviously quite a few knowledgable people out there re this type of subject.
How come Nitos car, is one of the more powerful ones out there? With 3 bolt ons?
And why are we still so far behind Australia in this field?
People may slate them and say the power they get isn't reliable. At least they get that power - we don't seem to be able to break 330hp - apart from 1 or 2 cars.
Why is this?
05 July 2001, 09:55 PM
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Craig,
Let's get this into perspective.
The Aussies have been at this for far longer, and have many well established, specialist tuning companies. We have ????
With regards to Nito's car, well, firstly don't forget just what those "3" bolt on bits are, and how much they whould cost to buy. He is also one of the very few guys to fit a FMIC, with the rest of us only now starting to follow his lead.
I suspect that there will be many more cars pushing some pretty healthy figures, in the near future.
Mark.
Let's get this into perspective.
The Aussies have been at this for far longer, and have many well established, specialist tuning companies. We have ????
With regards to Nito's car, well, firstly don't forget just what those "3" bolt on bits are, and how much they whould cost to buy. He is also one of the very few guys to fit a FMIC, with the rest of us only now starting to follow his lead.
I suspect that there will be many more cars pushing some pretty healthy figures, in the near future.
Mark.
05 July 2001, 10:42 PM
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Craig,
You are right. Lots of people in OZ are running similar setups to Nito. Whether it is a reliable method, I don't know, as I'm new to the turbo world and I'm hitting my head that I did not pay that much attention when I was there, as a good family friend of ours has a performance shop there and is an engine specialist, especially scoobs. I was an atmo V8 man before. When I decided to buy a scoob for Greece, 1 month before I came here, I went to his workshop to find out more. But how much can you learn in a month. He then came over here as I bought parts off him for my scoob, to help me fit them. I did not know the bbs either back then so we could go through a few things together. I have so much to ask him so that I can compare, with things posted here, but the time difference and him being busy makes it hard to get to have a nice long chat. The bbs has opened things up for me. Back then I'd ask him something basic and he'd answer. Now I'd be able to disagree, with the help of the bbs and I would ask him more.
Back to topic, my scoob is a MY00. Mods include,
APS induction kit with K&N filter,
5 zigen exhaust 2 3/4 inch midsection and backbox (catless mid)
Blitz DSBC electronic boost controller set at 1.2 bar overboost.
Fuel cut defender,
Blitz dump valve,
Blitz dual turbo timer,
Knocklink next week.
All these bits were bought from his shop and I brought them with me to Greece in my container with personal effects. Then my m8 came to fit them. We wanted a Unichip as he is a dealer of APS, but due to no 4WD dyno we obviously could not map one. But he set my car up like other ones they set up in OZ that don't run aftermarket ECU's
Now my friend said this is perfectly safe and had my boost set at 1.3 bar boost. I was scared and asked him, as I thought it was too high and he said he and other tuners in OZ set them all up like this with no problems so far. After finding the bbs and after reading here I **** myself and I dropped it to 1.2 bar for winter and 1.1 bar for summer. He also wants my next mods to include a VF22 and an APS fmic and reckons the standard ecu will cope with fueling as they run rich, but that I would run less boost probably 1.15 bar to 1.2 bar. They obviously have different ideas over there. I'm not saying it is right or wrong I don't know. I respect his judgement and Nitos, but what Adam and Mark say also makes sense and respect there judgement too. I read here and I am learning. My ideas are expanding. We need more real life examples. Hopefully I'll have the ability to judge for myself taking the good and the bad and weighing them to see what I choose. For now I take precautions and would like to come to the UK for some mapping so I feel safer. Boost set at 1.1 for summer especially from Monday, 40 deg Celsius all next week is the forecast for Greece.
Regards ,
WREXY.
PS If you think the UK is behind in tuning scoobs, what can I say about Greece. I'm on my own here.
[This message has been edited by WREXY (edited 05 July 2001).]
You are right. Lots of people in OZ are running similar setups to Nito. Whether it is a reliable method, I don't know, as I'm new to the turbo world and I'm hitting my head that I did not pay that much attention when I was there, as a good family friend of ours has a performance shop there and is an engine specialist, especially scoobs. I was an atmo V8 man before. When I decided to buy a scoob for Greece, 1 month before I came here, I went to his workshop to find out more. But how much can you learn in a month. He then came over here as I bought parts off him for my scoob, to help me fit them. I did not know the bbs either back then so we could go through a few things together. I have so much to ask him so that I can compare, with things posted here, but the time difference and him being busy makes it hard to get to have a nice long chat. The bbs has opened things up for me. Back then I'd ask him something basic and he'd answer. Now I'd be able to disagree, with the help of the bbs and I would ask him more.
Back to topic, my scoob is a MY00. Mods include,
APS induction kit with K&N filter,
5 zigen exhaust 2 3/4 inch midsection and backbox (catless mid)
Blitz DSBC electronic boost controller set at 1.2 bar overboost.
Fuel cut defender,
Blitz dump valve,
Blitz dual turbo timer,
Knocklink next week.
All these bits were bought from his shop and I brought them with me to Greece in my container with personal effects. Then my m8 came to fit them. We wanted a Unichip as he is a dealer of APS, but due to no 4WD dyno we obviously could not map one. But he set my car up like other ones they set up in OZ that don't run aftermarket ECU's
Now my friend said this is perfectly safe and had my boost set at 1.3 bar boost. I was scared and asked him, as I thought it was too high and he said he and other tuners in OZ set them all up like this with no problems so far. After finding the bbs and after reading here I **** myself and I dropped it to 1.2 bar for winter and 1.1 bar for summer. He also wants my next mods to include a VF22 and an APS fmic and reckons the standard ecu will cope with fueling as they run rich, but that I would run less boost probably 1.15 bar to 1.2 bar. They obviously have different ideas over there. I'm not saying it is right or wrong I don't know. I respect his judgement and Nitos, but what Adam and Mark say also makes sense and respect there judgement too. I read here and I am learning. My ideas are expanding. We need more real life examples. Hopefully I'll have the ability to judge for myself taking the good and the bad and weighing them to see what I choose. For now I take precautions and would like to come to the UK for some mapping so I feel safer. Boost set at 1.1 for summer especially from Monday, 40 deg Celsius all next week is the forecast for Greece.
Regards ,
WREXY.
PS If you think the UK is behind in tuning scoobs, what can I say about Greece. I'm on my own here.
[This message has been edited by WREXY (edited 05 July 2001).]
06 July 2001, 02:56 AM
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Goosh WREXY, you're all alone? what if you need help to repair (touch wood) ?? No trustworthy workshop to do that too?
Is you car running forge piston? If no, absolute max. 1.2 bar bar @ little safty margin, better still remain at 1.1 if repairing in Greece is a problem.
Hyper
Is you car running forge piston? If no, absolute max. 1.2 bar bar @ little safty margin, better still remain at 1.1 if repairing in Greece is a problem.
Hyper
06 July 2001, 08:52 AM
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Wrexy,
There's a big difference between '99>, and pre '99 UK cars, and also pre '99 UK cars, and the later Jap WRX/STi's.
PRE '99 UK cars have 380cc injectors.
'99 > have 440cc injectors, the same as the Jap WRX/STi's.
So from a "fuelling" point of view, the later UK cars can handle far more power.
On my car (STi4) with MY set up, running 1.45bar the 440cc injectors were hitting 100% duty cycle at 5000~5500rpm, so I fitted 550cc injectors, but at 7500rpm, these too are max'ing out Looks like I'm going to need something a touch bigger.....
Hyper: Good to see you posting. Have you arranged for a set of new tyres, each time you fill the fuel tank
Mark.
There's a big difference between '99>, and pre '99 UK cars, and also pre '99 UK cars, and the later Jap WRX/STi's.
PRE '99 UK cars have 380cc injectors.
'99 > have 440cc injectors, the same as the Jap WRX/STi's.
So from a "fuelling" point of view, the later UK cars can handle far more power.
On my car (STi4) with MY set up, running 1.45bar the 440cc injectors were hitting 100% duty cycle at 5000~5500rpm, so I fitted 550cc injectors, but at 7500rpm, these too are max'ing out
Looks like I'm going to need something a touch bigger.....Hyper: Good to see you posting. Have you arranged for a set of new tyres, each time you fill the fuel tank
Mark.
06 July 2001, 09:10 AM
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Hyper,
No forgies, standard internals. I hope I never have to come to the stage of repairs. God help me if I do. There are the dealers, but can you trust them? They are OK for basic repairs and even then some make a meal of things. Well my m8 in OZ says to ring him if I need help, for step by step phone instructions. And also the bbs helps too, there is lots of valuable info here.
Mark thanks for replying, Do you think it was safe to run 1.3 bar overboost with our 98 RON fuel here and with our 440cc? injectors? Or do you think I have done the right thing in lowering the boost? I suppose I'll find out when the Knocklink arrives. I think I'll have to invest in a lambda link as well.
WREXY.
No forgies, standard internals. I hope I never have to come to the stage of repairs. God help me if I do. There are the dealers, but can you trust them? They are OK for basic repairs and even then some make a meal of things. Well my m8 in OZ says to ring him if I need help, for step by step phone instructions. And also the bbs helps too, there is lots of valuable info here.
Mark thanks for replying, Do you think it was safe to run 1.3 bar overboost with our 98 RON fuel here and with our 440cc? injectors? Or do you think I have done the right thing in lowering the boost? I suppose I'll find out when the Knocklink arrives. I think I'll have to invest in a lambda link as well.
WREXY.
06 July 2001, 09:25 AM
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Mark,
Guess that was an over simplification - those 3 parts cost around £4k I believe plus fitting, so not cheap........
Unfortunately, we're led to believe there are many experts out there - but like you say, they are?
Guess that was an over simplification - those 3 parts cost around £4k I believe plus fitting, so not cheap........
Unfortunately, we're led to believe there are many experts out there - but like you say, they are?
06 July 2001, 10:14 AM
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not me that's for sure.
the way I learn is from listening to others and deciding if I believe what they say. I question what I hear based on the physics I studied at school and university and the engine related cr@p I have to work with every day.
If something sounds fishy, I run it past one of the highest level engineers at Ford R&D who happens to invent (for ford) more than all the other clients put together.
If it still sounds fishy after that, I refuse to accept it.
the way I learn is from listening to others and deciding if I believe what they say. I question what I hear based on the physics I studied at school and university and the engine related cr@p I have to work with every day.
If something sounds fishy, I run it past one of the highest level engineers at Ford R&D who happens to invent (for ford) more than all the other clients put together.
If it still sounds fishy after that, I refuse to accept it.
06 July 2001, 02:40 PM
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Excellent.
Apologies I haven't posted, been away from the computer until now, at least were in agreement and sorted out the confusion, thank goodness for that! No hard feelings Mark or Adam, at least that's sorted, now we can get on concentrating on more data.
When time allows I'll be measuring injector duty cycle on the select monitor and will post the results (naming the charity of my choice or not!)
Depending on the outcome, I'll decide whether or not to go for 440 injectors. I have it on good authority that the std ecu can cope with a 20% increase in injector size without causing any compatibility problems. So 440cc seem ideal. It'll be interestring to see the results of this.
As for needing bigger injectors than 550's Mark, try contacting Jan Shim, he has a very interesting set of 850cc injectors he's selling which are unused.
Nito
Apologies I haven't posted, been away from the computer until now, at least were in agreement and sorted out the confusion, thank goodness for that! No hard feelings Mark or Adam, at least that's sorted, now we can get on concentrating on more data.
When time allows I'll be measuring injector duty cycle on the select monitor and will post the results (naming the charity of my choice
or not!)Depending on the outcome, I'll decide whether or not to go for 440 injectors. I have it on good authority that the std ecu can cope with a 20% increase in injector size without causing any compatibility problems. So 440cc seem ideal. It'll be interestring to see the results of this.
As for needing bigger injectors than 550's Mark, try contacting Jan Shim, he has a very interesting set of 850cc injectors he's selling which are unused.
Nito
06 July 2001, 09:28 PM
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hi guys
where did the magic 1.2bar is safe for a UK car come from ? i hear it over and over again but i don't understand it. if you are using the standard ecu it is fair enough as the ecu is probably mapped all the way to 1.2bar. but if you are not running the standard ecu, what is the limit ? isn't limited by knock activity and egt figures ? so if you are running 1.3-1.4 bar with no knocks and decent FMIC to keep the charge down and ignition advance which is mapped correctely so you are not getting too high EGT readings, who say that this is wrong or right ? surely you have to accept the wear and tear issues and the fact that you engine will not probably last as much as standard and every thing.
another thing. if it is aceptable to run 1.2 bar with the standard intercooler surely you can run 1.3 with the bigger front mount ? that what the cossie boys do to run more boost, they get a bigger intercooler and run 1-2 psi more kind of thing.
is there something that i am missing here.
your thoughts will be appreciated
sam
where did the magic 1.2bar is safe for a UK car come from ? i hear it over and over again but i don't understand it. if you are using the standard ecu it is fair enough as the ecu is probably mapped all the way to 1.2bar. but if you are not running the standard ecu, what is the limit ? isn't limited by knock activity and egt figures ? so if you are running 1.3-1.4 bar with no knocks and decent FMIC to keep the charge down and ignition advance which is mapped correctely so you are not getting too high EGT readings, who say that this is wrong or right ? surely you have to accept the wear and tear issues and the fact that you engine will not probably last as much as standard and every thing.
another thing. if it is aceptable to run 1.2 bar with the standard intercooler surely you can run 1.3 with the bigger front mount ? that what the cossie boys do to run more boost, they get a bigger intercooler and run 1-2 psi more kind of thing.
is there something that i am missing here.
your thoughts will be appreciated
sam