How Do You Choose The Right Turbo First Time
19 December 2003, 08:48 AM
#1
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 3,828
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is whether it is a new Turbo or hybriding an existing one.
I have seen on here numerous people go through a fair number of turbos to get what they want (and so at great expense). On the other hand I have seen the likes of Harvey and AndyF get it right first time.
I realise it is not an exact science but equally so it can't be just pot luck?
For example, I have a twin scroll and so I would like to look at what it possible in terms of hybriding these, e.g. effect of changing compressor wheel etc.
Any pointers?
Damian.
I have seen on here numerous people go through a fair number of turbos to get what they want (and so at great expense). On the other hand I have seen the likes of Harvey and AndyF get it right first time.
I realise it is not an exact science but equally so it can't be just pot luck?
For example, I have a twin scroll and so I would like to look at what it possible in terms of hybriding these, e.g. effect of changing compressor wheel etc.
Any pointers?
Damian.
19 December 2003, 01:59 PM
#2
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 1,998
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
decide what your goal is and see what the supporting mods would be.
you could then fit the supporting mods and see what you can get out of the standard turbo first. by this time you will probably be a scooby meet/rolling road day regular , so will have seen and probably been in cars which have gone that stage further.
you could then fit the supporting mods and see what you can get out of the standard turbo first. by this time you will probably be a scooby meet/rolling road day regular , so will have seen and probably been in cars which have gone that stage further.
19 December 2003, 05:45 PM
#3
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: 32 cylinders and many cats
Posts: 18,658
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Speak to people who have got it right first time.
Harvey: silly power on VF28, silly power on Ion
Andy: silly power on TD05, silly power on TD05/06 hybrid
Harvey: silly power on VF28, silly power on Ion
Andy: silly power on TD05, silly power on TD05/06 hybrid
19 December 2003, 11:49 PM
#4
Scooby Senior
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,602
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think that you might find if your only specification is, eg 'peak power', then finding the right turbo first time is easy, it's when you want to add eg driveability to it that is when things get complicated!
Something you'll pick out about the Harvey/Andy choices is that they know enough to make the right choice up front - ie they know, largely, both what they are after and enough about playing with things to take an educated guess. Anyway, I'm fairly convinced that both Andy and Harvey have been through a few turbos - probably could be considered a 'learning curve'? which has if not finished, at least settled
I think that much of the turbo changing that goes on is because of changing requirements; I thought that 350bhp would be plenty. Well, it was until I got used to it
Unfortuntately, reading about other people's experiences isn't always very helpful, as different peonple have different experiences depending on their previous experience, so it all gets a bit weird. Probably deciding exactly what you want & then borring someone's car with the suggested turbo & a similar set up to yours for a few weeks is the way to do it
In practice, find a well proven turbo with repeated reports of the right sort of performance, check that the supporting mods are what you have/are within budget & just give it a whirl... effectively, once you have spent the initial outlay on a turbo, it can be sold on if you change your mind so the cost for each change becomes lower - one slight compensation
Something you'll pick out about the Harvey/Andy choices is that they know enough to make the right choice up front - ie they know, largely, both what they are after and enough about playing with things to take an educated guess. Anyway, I'm fairly convinced that both Andy and Harvey have been through a few turbos - probably could be considered a 'learning curve'? which has if not finished, at least settled
I think that much of the turbo changing that goes on is because of changing requirements; I thought that 350bhp would be plenty. Well, it was until I got used to it
Unfortuntately, reading about other people's experiences isn't always very helpful, as different peonple have different experiences depending on their previous experience, so it all gets a bit weird
. Probably deciding exactly what you want & then borring someone's car with the suggested turbo & a similar set up to yours for a few weeks is the way to do it In practice, find a well proven turbo with repeated reports of the right sort of performance, check that the supporting mods are what you have/are within budget & just give it a whirl... effectively, once you have spent the initial outlay on a turbo, it can be sold on if you change your mind so the cost for each change becomes lower - one slight compensation
20 December 2003, 02:34 PM
#5
Subaru Tuning Specialist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 7.74 @179 mph 1/4 mile - road legal
Posts: 6,654
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Anyway, I'm fairly convinced that both Andy and Harvey have been through a few turbos
I have had one OE TD05 on my car which was converted to front entry. Then, after I had drawn up my spec for the 05/06 hybrid, it was converted. The end.
I have experimented with a few tweeks since converting, such as turbine cut backs etc but this is the same base turbo that has been on my car for around 2 years now
Andy
20 December 2003, 03:08 PM
#6
Spen: If you want to talk it through, e-mail me your phone number.
Nom: Thankyou for your kind words but the truth is slightly different. I have only had/have two cars with turbos on them. My WRX Wagon which I have had for three years. I think it has a TD04 but I will find out soon as it is about to become the subject of an extra 100+ bhp as I cannot do much more with the STi Wagon on its current engine. The STi had a VF28 and with some effort, including some minor turbo work I got that to 377 bhp.
I had agonised for a long time, all the way through various power hikes from 340 bhp to 377 bhp as to what I should do regards a turbo and it was quite clear that what was on offer from the traditional Subaru after market suppliers meant that 400 bhp would be a milestone.
Fortunately, I then made contact with Ion Performance in Canada and was able to pick up a lot of knowledge to add to my own and it was clear they knew turbos inside out and were not just box shifters. With that car the rest is history, 417 bhp on the first outing with the new turbo and 585 bhp and 464 ft/lbs torque most recently.
I would not automatically buy an Ion turbo for the next application and indeed the WRX will get something else but the new 2 litre engine will most likely get another Ion because I am yet to see a more competant all round unit and the supplier is able to match the turbo to my expectations.
As has already been said it is important to determine what is required from the turbo and then set out to find one that has every chance of doing that prior to purchase.
What amazes me is that despite the fact that I have probably had most power since a year last October, nobody else has followed the Ion route.
Nom: Thankyou for your kind words but the truth is slightly different. I have only had/have two cars with turbos on them. My WRX Wagon which I have had for three years. I think it has a TD04 but I will find out soon as it is about to become the subject of an extra 100+ bhp as I cannot do much more with the STi Wagon on its current engine. The STi had a VF28 and with some effort, including some minor turbo work I got that to 377 bhp.
I had agonised for a long time, all the way through various power hikes from 340 bhp to 377 bhp as to what I should do regards a turbo and it was quite clear that what was on offer from the traditional Subaru after market suppliers meant that 400 bhp would be a milestone.
Fortunately, I then made contact with Ion Performance in Canada and was able to pick up a lot of knowledge to add to my own and it was clear they knew turbos inside out and were not just box shifters. With that car the rest is history, 417 bhp on the first outing with the new turbo and 585 bhp and 464 ft/lbs torque most recently.
I would not automatically buy an Ion turbo for the next application and indeed the WRX will get something else but the new 2 litre engine will most likely get another Ion because I am yet to see a more competant all round unit and the supplier is able to match the turbo to my expectations.
As has already been said it is important to determine what is required from the turbo and then set out to find one that has every chance of doing that prior to purchase.
What amazes me is that despite the fact that I have probably had most power since a year last October, nobody else has followed the Ion route.
Trending Topics
20 December 2003, 08:14 PM
#8
Thanks for letting me know Rob but don`t worry about it because from the time of the bible there have always been doubting Thomases. There are also envious people which is unfortunate. Do "some people" have names by any chance ? I bet they wern`t part of the 60 crowd that witnessed the 585 bhp / 464 ft/lb run.
I guess they will be really pi**ed off when I do 600 bhp on two litres.
I guess they will be really pi**ed off when I do 600 bhp on two litres.
21 December 2003, 03:56 AM
#10
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Fcon Power Writer
Posts: 4,338
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lol, i will be pissed off if you get 600 from a 2.0lt, apart from Torque i wouldnt have bothered with the 2.5...
After reading recent threads it seems as though you have made this power on a 450hp spec turbo??
Anyways... No point bringin this thread down... If you dont wanna tell me your secret that is your choice
Rob
After reading recent threads it seems as though you have made this power on a 450hp spec turbo??
Anyways... No point bringin this thread down... If you dont wanna tell me your secret that is your choice
Rob
21 December 2003, 09:58 AM
#11
Bit surprised with you Rob mate. No secrets. It is all there in black and white but all the mods compliment each other instead of a hotch potch and everything has been done properly with attention to detail but also kept as simple as possible if that is not a contradiction.
Like I said, no secrets and the bonnet is often open for all to see at rolling road events and Elvington etc as those who have seen the car will confirm. Never refused to open the bonnet and answer questions openly and honestly for anybody who is interested.
It takes a bit of effort to get to this level and the P450 turbo has a conservative rating of 450hp but unlike some turbos sold as 400bhp units which then reqire,further work, wheel and cover changes and machining etc and still struggle, it can do 450bhp out the box and with attention to detail more is available. It is running at only 1.8/1.85 bar but is capable of running far in excess of that.
I am sure that if you had one you would be more than satisfied with the results it can give.
Are you not the guy who earlier this year I tried to help by sharing my knowledge, spending a lot of time, in great detail and with long, long e-mails to assist in your own build. When the time spent sat typing e-mails became too protracted I suggested you phone me and I would pass on more info in detail as the long e-mails were taking up a lot of time and from that point I heard no more?
I guess now that I was wasting my time because I doubt you took on board fully what I said. To think there are secrets after I shared as much as possible with you up to the point you did not phone me for more info and now to cast aspersions on my turbo or power output achievements which have been done publically on several occassions is not cricket.
If 600bhp on 2litres pisses you off then be prepared because at some point that is what I will do publically and you can continue to be a sceptic or doubting Thomas.
In your previous posr why say "some people"? Why not just come straight out with it?
[Edited by harvey - 12/21/2003 9:59:25 AM]
Like I said, no secrets and the bonnet is often open for all to see at rolling road events and Elvington etc as those who have seen the car will confirm. Never refused to open the bonnet and answer questions openly and honestly for anybody who is interested.
It takes a bit of effort to get to this level and the P450 turbo has a conservative rating of 450hp but unlike some turbos sold as 400bhp units which then reqire,further work, wheel and cover changes and machining etc and still struggle, it can do 450bhp out the box and with attention to detail more is available. It is running at only 1.8/1.85 bar but is capable of running far in excess of that.
I am sure that if you had one you would be more than satisfied with the results it can give.
Are you not the guy who earlier this year I tried to help by sharing my knowledge, spending a lot of time, in great detail and with long, long e-mails to assist in your own build. When the time spent sat typing e-mails became too protracted I suggested you phone me and I would pass on more info in detail as the long e-mails were taking up a lot of time and from that point I heard no more?
I guess now that I was wasting my time because I doubt you took on board fully what I said. To think there are secrets after I shared as much as possible with you up to the point you did not phone me for more info and now to cast aspersions on my turbo or power output achievements which have been done publically on several occassions is not cricket.
If 600bhp on 2litres pisses you off then be prepared because at some point that is what I will do publically and you can continue to be a sceptic or doubting Thomas.
In your previous posr why say "some people"? Why not just come straight out with it?
[Edited by harvey - 12/21/2003 9:59:25 AM]
21 December 2003, 10:51 AM
#12
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,881
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This thread appears to be going down a familiar road
Lets keep it on track guys
Harvey, Assuming your turbo is direct bolt on (correct me if I'm wrong please) How much material did you have to grind off the bellhousing / compressor cover to fit it. Curious as my hybrid had to have a fair amount taken off the bellhousing to get it to fit and I'm wondering how much more I can get away with?
Conrad
Lets keep it on track guys
Harvey, Assuming your turbo is direct bolt on (correct me if I'm wrong please) How much material did you have to grind off the bellhousing / compressor cover to fit it. Curious as my hybrid had to have a fair amount taken off the bellhousing to get it to fit and I'm wondering how much more I can get away with?
Conrad
21 December 2003, 02:46 PM
#13
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Fcon Power Writer
Posts: 4,338
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry you feel that way Harvey, i was purely tryin to fish out some more info. I appreciate the time that you put my way but unfortunately i dont have much time to access a phone and email is pretty much my only way of communication most of the time.
Rather than take up any more of your time via email as you said it was difficult to reply, i left the conversation as it was.
The 'some people' comment was purely that, Your graph has come up a few times whilst talking to various people and the same thing is said each time, NOT people from the Harvey appreciation society
Rob.
edited as email is playin up...
[Edited by tweenierob - 12/21/2003 2:52:53 PM]
Rather than take up any more of your time via email as you said it was difficult to reply, i left the conversation as it was.
The 'some people' comment was purely that, Your graph has come up a few times whilst talking to various people and the same thing is said each time, NOT people from the Harvey appreciation society
Rob.
edited as email is playin up...
[Edited by tweenierob - 12/21/2003 2:52:53 PM]
21 December 2003, 10:04 PM
#15
Scooby Senior
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,602
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Andy & Harvey: sorry, thought you'd both mucked about with turbos more than you had! It all gets very confusing reading all the threads . I get confused enough with what my set-up is - don't know why I even bother trying to remember anyone elses
Harvey - thinking about the Ion turbo & why others haven't followed the same route, I'm guessing it's because it's not the 'easy option'? At least, easy buying-wise (ie AFAIK Canadian contact info, minimal website - or was last time I had a look - different time-zones, blah blah blah). They might work very well indeed, but if the apparent buying method is complicated, most won't both. Probably their loss, but there you go
Actually, does anyone else over here use one of their turbos? Just interested...
. I get confused enough with what my set-up is - don't know why I even bother trying to remember anyone elses Harvey - thinking about the Ion turbo & why others haven't followed the same route, I'm guessing it's because it's not the 'easy option'? At least, easy buying-wise (ie AFAIK Canadian contact info, minimal website - or was last time I had a look - different time-zones, blah blah blah
). They might work very well indeed, but if the apparent buying method is complicated, most won't both. Probably their loss, but there you go Actually, does anyone else over here use one of their turbos? Just interested...
21 December 2003, 10:14 PM
#16
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Leeds - It was 562.4bhp@28psi on Optimax, How much closer to 600 with race fuel and a bigger turbo?
Posts: 15,239
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
conrad.. not much last time I had a nosy under his bonnet.. enough that 1 off the bolts doesnt go in iirc.. however thats a minor issue (phase 1 cars only had 4 as std) (im sure harvey will confirm if Im incorrect)
However I do remember harvey saying him using an angle grinder under the bonnet made a mess.. made me chuckle as its something im very used to doing.. however grinding steel and not cleaning up leaves rust speckled bits
David
However I do remember harvey saying him using an angle grinder under the bonnet made a mess.. made me chuckle as its something im very used to doing.. however grinding steel and not cleaning up leaves rust speckled bits
David
22 December 2003, 04:19 AM
#18
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Fcon Power Writer
Posts: 4,338
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Andy, you two will be needing a Banner Ad at this rate
I thought you and Harvey were the 22b Mafia
Agree with the Ion Comments... If you can get round the time zones/delivery there are so many more options out there in the big wide world..
Mine and Chris's Turbo's both came from the US in the end, but... unlike getting a Uk supplied turbo if we have any problems we have a longer lead time for replacements etc(obviously due to distance).. But given cost etc it was a chance that had to be taken (and 4 days isnt really that long to wait).
It paid off really well in the end
Rob
[Edited by tweenierob - 12/22/2003 4:20:18 AM]
I thought you and Harvey were the 22b Mafia
Agree with the Ion Comments... If you can get round the time zones/delivery there are so many more options out there in the big wide world..
Mine and Chris's Turbo's both came from the US in the end, but... unlike getting a Uk supplied turbo if we have any problems we have a longer lead time for replacements etc(obviously due to distance).. But given cost etc it was a chance that had to be taken (and 4 days isnt really that long to wait
). It paid off really well in the end
Rob
[Edited by tweenierob - 12/22/2003 4:20:18 AM]
22 December 2003, 08:18 AM
#19
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Oooooooop North!
Posts: 2,737
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No problem with buying turbos from the states whatsoever, or aussie land.
Takes 3 days from Australia.... Better than quite a few UK suppliers IMO!
Takes 3 days from Australia.... Better than quite a few UK suppliers IMO!
22 December 2003, 09:07 AM
#20
Scooby Senior
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,602
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IMO the 'distance' problem is more related to specs - if you know you want a VF35, for instance, then find the cheapest place to get it & off you go. But the iON stuff, we don't even have any names for their models, other than the info that Harvey gives us, so there's a lot of 'pre-sales' work to be done. Rather harder with the time-zone problem! It's why web-sites can do such wonders for companies such as this
22 December 2003, 09:19 AM
#21
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Fcon Power Writer
Posts: 4,338
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Deffo Nom, shame their site isnt up n running yet..
Maybe we may have a UK site before it is finished
If you can find the right supplier spec is also not too much of a problem..
Rob
Maybe we may have a UK site before it is finished
If you can find the right supplier spec is also not too much of a problem..
Rob
22 December 2003, 10:06 AM
#22
would that be the 22b mafia
22 December 2003, 11:42 AM
#25
Conrad: The Ion turbo I fitted (P450) was a direct replacement for my VF28. It was a bit more work than simply bolt on however and having done it once, not a daunting prospect for a second fitment.
The bell housing has six bolt flanges and it was necessary to cut away one of them using a cutting disc. It would have been a doddle with the engine out but was a bit awkward in situ but no real problem with the right cutter. I also had to alter the oil and water pipes to fit so you need access to silver soldering or brazing.An alternative would be to have flexipipes made up in advance and this would have saved me a lot of time. I started the job at tea time in John Pye's workshop and stopped when I needed a cutting disc. The following morning the flange was cut out and the turbo loosely fitted.Ten fifteen minutes max. Smoothed off so you do not really see it too much. There was aluminium filings and swarf everywhere. That night I finished fitting the turbo up-pipe and headers and finished the job the following morning as I had to go out and get a fitting.
Not too hard, would have done it differently if I had realised in advance what was required but most definately worth the effort.
So impressed with the turbo and overall result that it will be another Ion Turbo on the next engine.
On the basis that the earlier cars had 4 bolt bell housings and I have seen a rally car run for a season with 3 bolts and no problems, then cutting away the whole flange/land is not a problem IMHO.
Rob: Really glad we have cleared that up. Where you were concerned there were no secrets. No need for you to have fished for info from me. You ask me a straight question, you get a straight answer. If I do not know or do not want to answer I will say so. I think at the time it must have been obvious to you I was holding nothing back and sharing everything I could think of and the suggestion of telephone contact was so I could give even more detail.
I don't give a stuff if "some people" choose not to believe my results. It is a free country and they can think what suits them.It might ease some of the short comings of their engines or turbos. They would not be part of the 60 odd crowd that witnessed it and the important people,Bob Rawle, Matt Clark and Jack at Ion know what is going on. To cast aspersions on my recent results is also to question the operation and integrity of the rolling road staff.
Nom: No problem with me. I think it is understandable you thought Andy and I would have gone through several turbos to get to where we have. By breaking away from the sheep route as it were, I was able to satisfy myself, after a lot of hard work, that what was being provided by Ion was likely to be able to do what I wanted. The icing on the cake has been that it was/is more than capable.
Andy has enough knowledge and engineering/turbo nous to have been able to sort out a very capable turbo solution for himself. A large proportion of people who have followed the preferred supplier route have been very disappointed when their turbos did not live up to the sales pitch. John Banks is one and Alan Garrod is another.For instance he had two failed turbos, several change of turbos and he changed covers and tried various wheels on several occassions, I seem to recollect and in the end he got one of Andy's TD05-20Gs to get his present very satisfying result having pissed about with lesser units for ten moths or more.
Regards getting turbos from Canada, I think it is down to carefully deciding what you want so that the build is right first time.As I understand it, although called the P450, each turbo is built to meet each individual requirement and will be slanted to cater for specific preferences. With hind sight I am sure that if Alan G had been given the option of an Ion turbo or mess about as he had to there is no doubt as to his best choice.
For me the inconvenience of dealing with Canada was minor and far outweighed by the results. I wanted the best I could get for my money and fifteen months on I would still repeat that choice, even with hindsight,despite the other developments that have taken place since.
I know there will be several cars running Ion turbos in the New Year. There is also a turbo available for mega outputs but that requires a fabricated up-pipe and down pipe.
Rob: We are the Scottish Mafia, a phrase coined by Mark Aigan and I am sure he regrets it now. Anyway we are all free thinking men and do not plot together jointly, just have common views and respond accordingly and BTW we have English affiliates too. The 22b Mafia, not heard of them before so Andy must have turned over a stone or something.
I have no involvement with Ion but if anybody wants any info I can give then feel free to make contact and I will provide what I can as openly and honestly as possible but remember I am obviosly biased.
Anyway, having got that off my chest; A happy Christmas to one and all.
The bell housing has six bolt flanges and it was necessary to cut away one of them using a cutting disc. It would have been a doddle with the engine out but was a bit awkward in situ but no real problem with the right cutter. I also had to alter the oil and water pipes to fit so you need access to silver soldering or brazing.An alternative would be to have flexipipes made up in advance and this would have saved me a lot of time. I started the job at tea time in John Pye's workshop and stopped when I needed a cutting disc. The following morning the flange was cut out and the turbo loosely fitted.Ten fifteen minutes max. Smoothed off so you do not really see it too much. There was aluminium filings and swarf everywhere. That night I finished fitting the turbo up-pipe and headers and finished the job the following morning as I had to go out and get a fitting.
Not too hard, would have done it differently if I had realised in advance what was required but most definately worth the effort.
So impressed with the turbo and overall result that it will be another Ion Turbo on the next engine.
On the basis that the earlier cars had 4 bolt bell housings and I have seen a rally car run for a season with 3 bolts and no problems, then cutting away the whole flange/land is not a problem IMHO.
Rob: Really glad we have cleared that up. Where you were concerned there were no secrets. No need for you to have fished for info from me. You ask me a straight question, you get a straight answer. If I do not know or do not want to answer I will say so. I think at the time it must have been obvious to you I was holding nothing back and sharing everything I could think of and the suggestion of telephone contact was so I could give even more detail.
I don't give a stuff if "some people" choose not to believe my results. It is a free country and they can think what suits them.It might ease some of the short comings of their engines or turbos. They would not be part of the 60 odd crowd that witnessed it and the important people,Bob Rawle, Matt Clark and Jack at Ion know what is going on. To cast aspersions on my recent results is also to question the operation and integrity of the rolling road staff.
Nom: No problem with me. I think it is understandable you thought Andy and I would have gone through several turbos to get to where we have. By breaking away from the sheep route as it were, I was able to satisfy myself, after a lot of hard work, that what was being provided by Ion was likely to be able to do what I wanted. The icing on the cake has been that it was/is more than capable.
Andy has enough knowledge and engineering/turbo nous to have been able to sort out a very capable turbo solution for himself. A large proportion of people who have followed the preferred supplier route have been very disappointed when their turbos did not live up to the sales pitch. John Banks is one and Alan Garrod is another.For instance he had two failed turbos, several change of turbos and he changed covers and tried various wheels on several occassions, I seem to recollect and in the end he got one of Andy's TD05-20Gs to get his present very satisfying result having pissed about with lesser units for ten moths or more.
Regards getting turbos from Canada, I think it is down to carefully deciding what you want so that the build is right first time.As I understand it, although called the P450, each turbo is built to meet each individual requirement and will be slanted to cater for specific preferences. With hind sight I am sure that if Alan G had been given the option of an Ion turbo or mess about as he had to there is no doubt as to his best choice.
For me the inconvenience of dealing with Canada was minor and far outweighed by the results. I wanted the best I could get for my money and fifteen months on I would still repeat that choice, even with hindsight,despite the other developments that have taken place since.
I know there will be several cars running Ion turbos in the New Year. There is also a turbo available for mega outputs but that requires a fabricated up-pipe and down pipe.
Rob: We are the Scottish Mafia, a phrase coined by Mark Aigan and I am sure he regrets it now. Anyway we are all free thinking men and do not plot together jointly, just have common views and respond accordingly and BTW we have English affiliates too. The 22b Mafia, not heard of them before so Andy must have turned over a stone or something.
I have no involvement with Ion but if anybody wants any info I can give then feel free to make contact and I will provide what I can as openly and honestly as possible but remember I am obviosly biased.
Anyway, having got that off my chest; A happy Christmas to one and all.
22 December 2003, 12:07 PM
#26
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 7,957
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am so sick of this name calling, I thought it was done and dusted now? when are people going to grow up and put this petty hatred behind them?
there is no scottish mafia, nor 22b mafia, there are just subaru tuners, preferably who share information.
there is something to be leanred from everyone on here, there is no tuning guru, just a collection of able minds.
Why can't people be accepted for what they have achieved and what they give back?
it is so very boring.
Moral crusading is fine, but I have far more respect for those who can put the past behind them.
there is no scottish mafia, nor 22b mafia, there are just subaru tuners, preferably who share information.
there is something to be leanred from everyone on here, there is no tuning guru, just a collection of able minds.
Why can't people be accepted for what they have achieved and what they give back?
it is so very boring.
Moral crusading is fine, but I have far more respect for those who can put the past behind them.
22 December 2003, 01:17 PM
#28
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 7,957
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
that was an awful idea conceived to enable one member of this and the other board to be able to post without fear of him and his family being threatened with violence.
It worked too, but at a cost that most of us were not willing to pay.
Perhaps if people took things a little less seriously and remembered we are only tinkering with cars in our spare time, then threats would not have forced a wrong decision.
Anyway, I have said enough now.
Can we please just drop the categorising?
It worked too, but at a cost that most of us were not willing to pay.
Perhaps if people took things a little less seriously and remembered we are only tinkering with cars in our spare time, then threats would not have forced a wrong decision.
Anyway, I have said enough now.
Can we please just drop the categorising?
22 December 2003, 01:55 PM
#29
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 1,998
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
without fear of him and his family being threatened with violence.
agree adam , it was a ridiculous idea. if someone's family is threatened then the police should have been involved. not an action that further drove the "coined" groups further apart
.
agree adam , it was a ridiculous idea. if someone's family is threatened then the police should have been involved. not an action that further drove the "coined" groups further apart
.
22 December 2003, 02:25 PM
#30
Subaru Tuning Specialist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 7.74 @179 mph 1/4 mile - road legal
Posts: 6,654
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Carefull now Andy, lets not start grouping people together because they happen to post on certain BBS's, it means nothing in terms of who gets on with who or who apreciates achievements etc.
Andy