MoTeC M48Pro on Phase II engine?
15 August 2000, 01:14 PM
#3
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 679
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rich,
I was curious if anyone had every put an M48Pro onto a Phase II engine... to the best of my knowledge there are none at the moment, I just wanted to check if this really is the case...
Cheers,
Pat.
I was curious if anyone had every put an M48Pro onto a Phase II engine... to the best of my knowledge there are none at the moment, I just wanted to check if this really is the case...
Cheers,
Pat.
15 August 2000, 04:49 PM
#5
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 679
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Moray,
I'll see what a UK spec Phase II engine will take. Hopefully it will last long enough to cover me for the time it will take to build "something special".
As yet, I am not aware of anyone running a MoTeC M48Pro in a car with a Phase II engine, a fact that might come in useful, shall we say? :-)
As for ignition advance, the Phase II will tolerate more than a Phase I engine anyway... presumably due to better head design.
Cheers,
Pat.
I'll see what a UK spec Phase II engine will take. Hopefully it will last long enough to cover me for the time it will take to build "something special".
As yet, I am not aware of anyone running a MoTeC M48Pro in a car with a Phase II engine, a fact that might come in useful, shall we say? :-)
As for ignition advance, the Phase II will tolerate more than a Phase I engine anyway... presumably due to better head design.
Cheers,
Pat.
16 August 2000, 10:39 AM
#7
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 679
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rich,
indeedy, they may well have fitted the M48Pro or M8 to Phase II engined rally cars, but I'm not aware of any road cars with a Phase II engine which have a MoTeC in them..... the maps will be different because for rally cars the cam timing is different. Hmm, now there's a thought :-)
Cheers,
Pat.
indeedy, they may well have fitted the M48Pro or M8 to Phase II engined rally cars, but I'm not aware of any road cars with a Phase II engine which have a MoTeC in them..... the maps will be different because for rally cars the cam timing is different. Hmm, now there's a thought :-)
Cheers,
Pat.
Trending Topics
17 August 2000, 11:03 PM
#8
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 15,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pat,
I considered and was very taken by the thought of having MoTEC - however I could not find any evidence, anywhere, of a Phase II road car with MoTEC innit and did not want to be the Guinea Pig. I mean if STI can't get the JECS map right then what chance do we have with an aftermarket MoTEC
I am sure that someone will be brave enough eventually and then we'll see.
As I am sure that you know, even with my det problem, I waited a few months to see how Link panned out for PII cars - and it would seem to be rather well actually.
Let me know how you get on - I guess you must be commited as you are selling your Links!
R
I considered and was very taken by the thought of having MoTEC - however I could not find any evidence, anywhere, of a Phase II road car with MoTEC innit and did not want to be the Guinea Pig. I mean if STI can't get the JECS map right then what chance do we have with an aftermarket MoTEC
I am sure that someone will be brave enough eventually and then we'll see.
As I am sure that you know, even with my det problem, I waited a few months to see how Link panned out for PII cars - and it would seem to be rather well actually.
Let me know how you get on - I guess you must be commited as you are selling your Links!
R
18 August 2000, 09:21 PM
#9
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 200
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
David,
there is nothing to be brave about. It is being done as we speak and another car is already running beautifully on the M48Pro, albeit of a somewhat earlier vintage (but by the same creator). Rallye cars mapping means nothing for what we want to use on the road, not to mention there is a lot to be done on Motecs as and how they are supplied. These ecus were never meant to be used on road cars and that is very evident. Not to mention the challenge is even more interesting.
And this is not all, my friend - very soon there will be one M8 ecu doing all sorts of wonderful things on an even more promising engine than the one in any Impreza. To give you an idea, it has 6 cylinders, 2 turbos, as it comes standard 400BHP and without being touched does 0-60 in 4.5 secs and approx. 180mph top speed. That should be even more illuminating.
Good times are rolling. Pat has nothing to worry about, Phase II engine will be running beautifully.
bye for now. When the time comes it will be known. Good things take time and are worth waiting for.
q.
[This message has been edited by quattro (edited 18 August 2000).]
[This message has been edited by quattro (edited 18 August 2000).]
there is nothing to be brave about. It is being done as we speak and another car is already running beautifully on the M48Pro, albeit of a somewhat earlier vintage (but by the same creator). Rallye cars mapping means nothing for what we want to use on the road, not to mention there is a lot to be done on Motecs as and how they are supplied. These ecus were never meant to be used on road cars and that is very evident. Not to mention the challenge is even more interesting.
And this is not all, my friend - very soon there will be one M8 ecu doing all sorts of wonderful things on an even more promising engine than the one in any Impreza. To give you an idea, it has 6 cylinders, 2 turbos, as it comes standard 400BHP and without being touched does 0-60 in 4.5 secs and approx. 180mph top speed. That should be even more illuminating.
Good times are rolling. Pat has nothing to worry about, Phase II engine will be running beautifully.
bye for now. When the time comes it will be known. Good things take time and are worth waiting for.
q.
[This message has been edited by quattro (edited 18 August 2000).]
[This message has been edited by quattro (edited 18 August 2000).]
18 August 2000, 11:38 PM
#11
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Gloucestershire, home of the lawnmower.
Posts: 4,531
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quattro,
If we have to play guessing games, I'll vote with sunilp and say Audi or a Porker
Pat,
What is all the fuss about putting a MoTeC on a road car, not like it hasn't been done before. Not as much fun as on race cars though Or am I missing a point specific to the Phase2 engines on Scoobies ? Is there something about these engines that make running an aftermarket EMS a problem ? Or am I missing the point again and you just don't want to be the first ? (I miss the point a lot )
Cheers
Ian
If we have to play guessing games, I'll vote with sunilp and say Audi or a Porker
Pat,
What is all the fuss about putting a MoTeC on a road car, not like it hasn't been done before. Not as much fun as on race cars though
Or am I missing a point specific to the Phase2 engines on Scoobies ? Is there something about these engines that make running an aftermarket EMS a problem ? Or am I missing the point again and you just don't want to be the first ? (I miss the point a lot )Cheers
Ian
19 August 2000, 07:54 AM
#12
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 200
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ian,
Fuss about MoTeC? I don't think there is any particular fuss. Leaving aside the human urge to always have something better or at least what others don't have, that is where the Motecs, Pectels et al. come in after the Link has been almost taken for granted now. It will be most interesting to see the final results with the superior architecture/facility ecus which, I am pretty certain, can be achieved. The beauty of complex ecu products in not so much in getting "more" than from those some people already called "simple ones", but the manner in which you can make minute changes and scale of adjustments which may affect the end result.
Under the assumption that the human factor involved in making any product of the kind work at it's best has been provided for, it is my expectation that one will be even more (pleasantly) surprised to see how good theoretically inferior devices actually are and only the most advanced and correctly (cleverly?) uprated and modified STi cars will really benefit from high-end engine management systems.Objective limitations of Impreza's engine and acillaries could also be most likely touched and recognised.
Time will tell for as long as there is enough of us ready to pay to enjoy the ride.
regards
q.
PS. Pretty good guess otherwise. Just a little bit too early for the C4 at the moment.
PPS.There are VERY few road Imprezas worldwide with MoTeC successfully implemented. And as with most products coming from the same place, least of them at source.
[This message has been edited by quattro (edited 19 August 2000).]
Fuss about MoTeC? I don't think there is any particular fuss. Leaving aside the human urge to always have something better or at least what others don't have, that is where the Motecs, Pectels et al. come in after the Link has been almost taken for granted now. It will be most interesting to see the final results with the superior architecture/facility ecus which, I am pretty certain, can be achieved. The beauty of complex ecu products in not so much in getting "more" than from those some people already called "simple ones", but the manner in which you can make minute changes and scale of adjustments which may affect the end result.
Under the assumption that the human factor involved in making any product of the kind work at it's best has been provided for, it is my expectation that one will be even more (pleasantly) surprised to see how good theoretically inferior devices actually are and only the most advanced and correctly (cleverly?) uprated and modified STi cars will really benefit from high-end engine management systems.Objective limitations of Impreza's engine and acillaries could also be most likely touched and recognised.
Time will tell for as long as there is enough of us ready to pay to enjoy the ride.
regards
q.
PS. Pretty good guess otherwise. Just a little bit too early for the C4 at the moment.
PPS.There are VERY few road Imprezas worldwide with MoTeC successfully implemented. And as with most products coming from the same place, least of them at source.
[This message has been edited by quattro (edited 19 August 2000).]
19 August 2000, 09:12 AM
#13
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 15,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
q,
the braveness is being able to find someone I would absolutely trust and understand the idiosynchracies of any given engine - and the Phase II has its share.
As it has been discussed elsewhere - the size of the premises and marketing budget are irrelevant - it is the quality of the mapper at the end of the day.
We all know a very good mapper, who really understands turbo engines - who struggled crudely and sadly with a Link. And if this was my MoTEC experience then how would I know any better if that was the best.
I am sure that over the coming months my concerns will be resolved as experience grows and then I will reconsider my options.
In the interim I will continue to enjoy twiddling with my Link...
...now where is that Datatrap!
R
[This message has been edited by Rannoch (edited 19 August 2000).]
the braveness is being able to find someone I would absolutely trust and understand the idiosynchracies of any given engine - and the Phase II has its share.
As it has been discussed elsewhere - the size of the premises and marketing budget are irrelevant - it is the quality of the mapper at the end of the day.
We all know a very good mapper, who really understands turbo engines - who struggled crudely and sadly with a Link. And if this was my MoTEC experience then how would I know any better if that was the best.
I am sure that over the coming months my concerns will be resolved as experience grows and then I will reconsider my options.
In the interim I will continue to enjoy twiddling with my Link...
...now where is that Datatrap!
R
[This message has been edited by Rannoch (edited 19 August 2000).]
19 August 2000, 03:54 PM
#14
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 200
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
David,
Well, you were brave once and it went a bit wrong (until it was put right), so you can be brave once again knowing it will not go wrong. As far as the Phase II is concerned it is by far the nicest of the 3 generations to work with and one with least idiosynchracies. I am not sure I understood what you meant by size of the premises or the marketing budget (I do not know anyone in the UK who would have either in this type of business!). I am also not familiar with any "very good mapper who really understands turbo engines and have crudely and sadly suffered with the Link". I am only aware of one very good mapper who really understands turbo engines and has achieved nice results with the Link. You know him, too.
BTW, I thought I have seen you getting out of your car earlier today at a famous location in Alton. Was it you?
Keep twiddling with the Link. Rumour has it you have become really good in mapping lately. Keep up the good work.
all the best
q.
Well, you were brave once and it went a bit wrong (until it was put right), so you can be brave once again knowing it will not go wrong. As far as the Phase II is concerned it is by far the nicest of the 3 generations to work with and one with least idiosynchracies. I am not sure I understood what you meant by size of the premises or the marketing budget (I do not know anyone in the UK who would have either in this type of business!). I am also not familiar with any "very good mapper who really understands turbo engines and have crudely and sadly suffered with the Link". I am only aware of one very good mapper who really understands turbo engines and has achieved nice results with the Link. You know him, too.
BTW, I thought I have seen you getting out of your car earlier today at a famous location in Alton. Was it you?
Keep twiddling with the Link. Rumour has it you have become really good in mapping lately. Keep up the good work.
all the best
q.
19 August 2000, 06:56 PM
#15
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 15,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
q,
it WAS me - my friend who has a MY98 UK car was looking at an STI VI!
You should have said hello - I didn't see you there - was that you getting into the Beetle with James?
Just to clarify a couple of things:-
1) there was a thread recently asking the question 'Is the only one LINK mapper' - the debate raised questions as to why there wasn't the supposed back up of a large tuner/distributor for LINK - and as we know size doesn't matter - it is down to the expertise of the individual mapper.
2) I am sure that you are aware that there were one or two LINK maps in the UK that our friend helped fix - and I am sure that some of those maps are still being driven around! I could have had one of those maps but other experience suggested that it was not the way to go!
3) I am flattered by the rumours regarding my mapping - I can only judge by how well my car is running and it has never been better - no knock, very smooth and bags of torque. Not bad fuel economy either.
At the end of the day I remain best convinced by demonstration and experience - a fast follower if you like - not a bleeding edger!
I must follow up my promise to see you in London - I wish my diary was more predictable.
David
[This message has been edited by Rannoch (edited 19 August 2000).]
it WAS me - my friend who has a MY98 UK car was looking at an STI VI!
You should have said hello - I didn't see you there - was that you getting into the Beetle with James?
Just to clarify a couple of things:-
1) there was a thread recently asking the question 'Is the only one LINK mapper' - the debate raised questions as to why there wasn't the supposed back up of a large tuner/distributor for LINK - and as we know size doesn't matter - it is down to the expertise of the individual mapper.
2) I am sure that you are aware that there were one or two LINK maps in the UK that our friend helped fix - and I am sure that some of those maps are still being driven around! I could have had one of those maps but other experience suggested that it was not the way to go!
3) I am flattered by the rumours regarding my mapping - I can only judge by how well my car is running and it has never been better - no knock, very smooth and bags of torque. Not bad fuel economy either.
At the end of the day I remain best convinced by demonstration and experience - a fast follower if you like - not a bleeding edger!
I must follow up my promise to see you in London - I wish my diary was more predictable.
David
[This message has been edited by Rannoch (edited 19 August 2000).]
19 August 2000, 09:50 PM
#18
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Gloucestershire, home of the lawnmower.
Posts: 4,531
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quattro,
I see where you are coming from but have a few issues:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by quattro:
<B>These ecus were never meant to be used on road cars and that is very evident.[/quote]
How so ? I don't understand your meaning here. Do you mean that the units themselves are not designed for road use ? As far as I can tell, MoTeC as an aftermarket EMS is designed to run an engine, regardless if it is in a road, rally or circuit car, road or race bike or even powerboat.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by quattro:
<B>And this is not all, my friend - very soon there will be one M8 ecu doing all sorts of wonderful things on an even more promising engine than the one in any Impreza. To give you an idea, it has 6 cylinders, 2 turbos, as it comes standard 400BHP and without being touched does 0-60 in 4.5 secs and approx. 180mph top speed.[/quote]
Still reckon it's German (Go on Quattro, do tell, purleeeze !) Seriously, the M8 is a whole new game compared to the M4 or M48. Having helped (ish) to map a hillclimb 6R4 on the M8 a year or so ago, the complexity still amazes me. How many options ? Mindblowing
As a certain member of the MoTeC team in the UK keeps saying, "The map is never finished", i.e. it can always be improved fractionally, a little bit here, a little bit there.
I think it would be true to say, you could plug in any of the aftermarket EMS's and get the car running, but finding that last little 0.1 bhp here, that 0.1 lb/ft there takes something special and that would include the level of fine tuning available.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by quattro:
<B>PPS.There are VERY few road Imprezas worldwide with MoTeC successfully implemented.[/quote]
Well, I wonder just how many road going Imprezas in Aus or NZ are running on MoTeC, thought it was the law A count wouldn't be hard to get.
And there are a few in this country too, at least into double figures
Pat,
Looks like a call to MoTeC to see if they have done a Phase2 might be in order.
Cheers
Ian
P.S. Also, could Rannoch stop posting in riddles, it does me heed in I.e. can we have straight talking rather than "a certain mapper.." etc. etc.
I see where you are coming from but have a few issues:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by quattro:
<B>These ecus were never meant to be used on road cars and that is very evident.[/quote]
How so ? I don't understand your meaning here. Do you mean that the units themselves are not designed for road use ? As far as I can tell, MoTeC as an aftermarket EMS is designed to run an engine, regardless if it is in a road, rally or circuit car, road or race bike or even powerboat.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by quattro:
<B>And this is not all, my friend - very soon there will be one M8 ecu doing all sorts of wonderful things on an even more promising engine than the one in any Impreza. To give you an idea, it has 6 cylinders, 2 turbos, as it comes standard 400BHP and without being touched does 0-60 in 4.5 secs and approx. 180mph top speed.[/quote]
Still reckon it's German
(Go on Quattro, do tell, purleeeze !) Seriously, the M8 is a whole new game compared to the M4 or M48. Having helped (ish) to map a hillclimb 6R4 on the M8 a year or so ago, the complexity still amazes me. How many options ? Mindblowing As a certain member of the MoTeC team in the UK keeps saying, "The map is never finished", i.e. it can always be improved fractionally, a little bit here, a little bit there.
I think it would be true to say, you could plug in any of the aftermarket EMS's and get the car running, but finding that last little 0.1 bhp here, that 0.1 lb/ft there takes something special and that would include the level of fine tuning available.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by quattro:
<B>PPS.There are VERY few road Imprezas worldwide with MoTeC successfully implemented.[/quote]
Well, I wonder just how many road going Imprezas in Aus or NZ are running on MoTeC, thought it was the law
A count wouldn't be hard to get.And there are a few in this country too, at least into double figures
Pat,
Looks like a call to MoTeC to see if they have done a Phase2 might be in order.
Cheers
Ian
P.S. Also, could Rannoch stop posting in riddles, it does me heed in
I.e. can we have straight talking rather than "a certain mapper.." etc. etc.
19 August 2000, 10:53 PM
#19
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 200
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whatever you say, Ian. I said what I had to say and you can speculate till doomsday.
Patience is a virtue and sometimes brings enlightening revelations.
q.
PS. David, hope you will not allow yourself to be dragged into this type of discussion. Too transparent, don't you think?
[This message has been edited by quattro (edited 19 August 2000).]
Patience is a virtue and sometimes brings enlightening revelations.
q.
PS. David, hope you will not allow yourself to be dragged into this type of discussion. Too transparent, don't you think?
[This message has been edited by quattro (edited 19 August 2000).]
19 August 2000, 11:51 PM
#20
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Gloucestershire, home of the lawnmower.
Posts: 4,531
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by quattro:
<B>Whatever you say, Ian. I said what I had to say and you can speculate till doomsday.[/quote]
Quattro,
Err, so you are just going to post your mystical posts and not back them up with substance ? I have queried a few of your "statements" yet you feel above joining in to this discussion
The whole point of this board is that it is in fact a *discussion* board. Posting one-off list of statements does nobody any good. Especially if you don't back up these statements when queried. Otherwise people will just think you are full of hot air.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by quattro:
<B>PS. David, hope you will not allow yourself to be dragged into this type of discussion. Too transparent, don't you think?.[/quote]
And what does that mean ? Have I done something to upset you ? If you have a personal beef with me, please let me know via email and don't bother with childish snipes.
I do apologise for showing an interest, having studied how various EMS work over the past few years, I thought I may just be able to bring something to this discussion. Maybe not....
Ian
<B>Whatever you say, Ian. I said what I had to say and you can speculate till doomsday.[/quote]
Quattro,
Err, so you are just going to post your mystical posts and not back them up with substance ? I have queried a few of your "statements" yet you feel above joining in to this discussion
The whole point of this board is that it is in fact a *discussion* board. Posting one-off list of statements does nobody any good. Especially if you don't back up these statements when queried. Otherwise people will just think you are full of hot air.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by quattro:
<B>PS. David, hope you will not allow yourself to be dragged into this type of discussion. Too transparent, don't you think?.[/quote]
And what does that mean ? Have I done something to upset you ? If you have a personal beef with me, please let me know via email and don't bother with childish snipes.
I do apologise for showing an interest, having studied how various EMS work over the past few years, I thought I may just be able to bring something to this discussion. Maybe not....
Ian
20 August 2000, 08:21 AM
#21
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 200
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not good enough, I am afraid. Interesting to see how your choice of words reflects your thoughts. As expected, must say.
Good luck to you and those you follow.
q.
PS. If people wanted to think of me as "full of hot air" it would not even be such a bad thing at all! I would nicely blend in with the vast majority. If it was to be it would have already happened.
[This message has been edited by quattro (edited 20 August 2000).]
[This message has been edited by quattro (edited 20 August 2000).]
Good luck to you and those you follow.
q.
PS. If people wanted to think of me as "full of hot air" it would not even be such a bad thing at all! I would nicely blend in with the vast majority. If it was to be it would have already happened.
[This message has been edited by quattro (edited 20 August 2000).]
[This message has been edited by quattro (edited 20 August 2000).]
20 August 2000, 08:47 AM
#22
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 15,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ian,
just a couple of questions in response to your riddles
I don't know if Pat did, but I know I did contact MoTEC UK and elsewhere - there was no record of a Phase II engine being mapped for the road. This MAY have changed in the interim, through offical channels, but I am not aware that it has. I would welcome your input - either here or offline.
More specifically regarding the use of MoTEC on the road - discussions with a number of people suggest that as standard it is relatively difficult, if not impossible to get a MoTEC to effectively idle a turbo charged car. Also regarding aftermarket road use - typically aftermarket equipment is plug and play - it can be removed if necessary. MoTEC would seem to require quite a bit of non-reversable work to add sensors and plug into the loom, etc. I would love to be wrong on this one - but this is what I have been led to believe.
Finally, although MoTEC was popular, I was not aware that it was dominant Downunder - non of my correspondance there has highlighted MoTEC, there are others and there seems to be a wider range of replacement ECUs in Oz - not many of which have made there way here.
Finally, I don't think that q is having a beef with you - he sounds like a MoTEC supporter to me
Cheers,
R
just a couple of questions in response to your riddles
I don't know if Pat did, but I know I did contact MoTEC UK and elsewhere - there was no record of a Phase II engine being mapped for the road. This MAY have changed in the interim, through offical channels, but I am not aware that it has. I would welcome your input - either here or offline.
More specifically regarding the use of MoTEC on the road - discussions with a number of people suggest that as standard it is relatively difficult, if not impossible to get a MoTEC to effectively idle a turbo charged car. Also regarding aftermarket road use - typically aftermarket equipment is plug and play - it can be removed if necessary. MoTEC would seem to require quite a bit of non-reversable work to add sensors and plug into the loom, etc. I would love to be wrong on this one - but this is what I have been led to believe.
Finally, although MoTEC was popular, I was not aware that it was dominant Downunder - non of my correspondance there has highlighted MoTEC, there are others and there seems to be a wider range of replacement ECUs in Oz - not many of which have made there way here.
Finally, I don't think that q is having a beef with you - he sounds like a MoTEC supporter to me
Cheers,
R
20 August 2000, 11:17 AM
#23
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Gloucestershire, home of the lawnmower.
Posts: 4,531
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rannoch,
Thanks you for replying in a mature manner.
With regards to the Phase2, I also cannot find any record of one being done. But I'm sure it will be no different than any other engine, just some settings will need to be different.
Yes, you are correct about the plug-and-play ability of the units. You can get a loom adaptor for the more popular cars, but still requires a few additional wires and possibly sensors. So no, you couldn't do a quick swap back to standard, but could be done if necessary say at the time of selling the car.
Idle of the car on MoTeC. I wasn't aware of many problems, don't know who you have been talking to. ST205 Celica idles nicely on the M48 and that is with 900cc injectors. 6R4, twin turbo, wacky fuel system etc, idles fine. IIRC correctly, Moray's STI3 had a bit of an idle problem, but I think that is now sorted. Grp N EVO idles fine on MoTeC, etc. etc.
MoTeC downunder: OK, maybe not dominant but it is up there with the Autronic. Many, many road cars are running aftermarket EMS and a large number of them are MoTeCs.
I even know of 5 road cars in Barbados that are running either MoTeC or Autronic and that island isn't that big
With regards to q, yes, I guessed he is a MoTeC supporter. It is his attitude that leads me to think that I have p*ssed him off in some way. Don't know, and if he cannot be bothered to explain his problem with me in a mature fashion, I quite frankly don't care.
Cheers
Ian
[This message has been edited by IWatkins (edited 20 August 2000).]
Thanks you for replying in a mature manner.
With regards to the Phase2, I also cannot find any record of one being done. But I'm sure it will be no different than any other engine, just some settings will need to be different.
Yes, you are correct about the plug-and-play ability of the units. You can get a loom adaptor for the more popular cars, but still requires a few additional wires and possibly sensors. So no, you couldn't do a quick swap back to standard, but could be done if necessary say at the time of selling the car.
Idle of the car on MoTeC. I wasn't aware of many problems, don't know who you have been talking to. ST205 Celica idles nicely on the M48 and that is with 900cc injectors
. 6R4, twin turbo, wacky fuel system etc, idles fine. IIRC correctly, Moray's STI3 had a bit of an idle problem, but I think that is now sorted. Grp N EVO idles fine on MoTeC, etc. etc.MoTeC downunder: OK, maybe not dominant but it is up there with the Autronic. Many, many road cars are running aftermarket EMS and a large number of them are MoTeCs.
I even know of 5 road cars in Barbados that are running either MoTeC or Autronic and that island isn't that big
With regards to q, yes, I guessed he is a MoTeC supporter. It is his attitude that leads me to think that I have p*ssed him off in some way. Don't know, and if he cannot be bothered to explain his problem with me in a mature fashion, I quite frankly don't care.
Cheers
Ian
[This message has been edited by IWatkins (edited 20 August 2000).]
20 August 2000, 05:01 PM
#24
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 679
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi all!
Sorry about the silence from this corner, I've been "away" :-)
OK, seems that there are no Phase II road cars which have got a MoTeC engine management system in them...
Rannoch,
nothing to do with bravery, I just don't like reinventing the wheel; I will put a MoTeC onto my car, and I will try to map it [wish me luck? :-)]. To add to the complication, it's a Phase II engine in a Phase I car, so I can't use the Subaru loom anyway! I guess this will be the only application of its sort :-)
Idle control with a MoTeC can be tricky, you have to really mess around with ignition advance, and run it sub-optimally under no load, simply because there is no closed loop idle control; you have to adjust the Idle Speed Control valve so that it flows enough air for 800-900 RPM when the butterfly is shut, then advance the timing when a load is applied so you get more torque for the same amount of air.
There is an extra complication to this, the ISC on the Phase II engine is a stepper motor, setting that up could be interesting. But sincle I will want to run ALS, I will need to make a controller for this anyway; I would tap that into the ignition output and the throtle position sensor's "closed" line to get it to alter the ISC opening to stabilise the idle around 800RPM, and just map optimally in that region.
With regard to mapping it, that will be both easier and more complicated at the same time; there is a much larger map, and much more to tweak, BUT there is also datalogging, so it is possible to look at engine data after a run, and adjust parameters accordingly; indeed I think there is an automagic setup feature, and of course you get wide band lambda for a few hours without paying for the full band lambda feature :-)
Cheers,
Pat.
Sorry about the silence from this corner, I've been "away" :-)
OK, seems that there are no Phase II road cars which have got a MoTeC engine management system in them...
Rannoch,
nothing to do with bravery, I just don't like reinventing the wheel; I will put a MoTeC onto my car, and I will try to map it [wish me luck? :-)]. To add to the complication, it's a Phase II engine in a Phase I car, so I can't use the Subaru loom anyway! I guess this will be the only application of its sort :-)
Idle control with a MoTeC can be tricky, you have to really mess around with ignition advance, and run it sub-optimally under no load, simply because there is no closed loop idle control; you have to adjust the Idle Speed Control valve so that it flows enough air for 800-900 RPM when the butterfly is shut, then advance the timing when a load is applied so you get more torque for the same amount of air.
There is an extra complication to this, the ISC on the Phase II engine is a stepper motor, setting that up could be interesting. But sincle I will want to run ALS, I will need to make a controller for this anyway; I would tap that into the ignition output and the throtle position sensor's "closed" line to get it to alter the ISC opening to stabilise the idle around 800RPM, and just map optimally in that region.
With regard to mapping it, that will be both easier and more complicated at the same time; there is a much larger map, and much more to tweak, BUT there is also datalogging, so it is possible to look at engine data after a run, and adjust parameters accordingly; indeed I think there is an automagic setup feature, and of course you get wide band lambda for a few hours without paying for the full band lambda feature :-)
Cheers,
Pat.
20 August 2000, 08:39 PM
#25
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 200
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello Ian,
To put your mind at rest, just a few more riddles:
1) You CANNOT neither annoy me nor anger me. For that certain criteria need to be met.
2) Lovely to see how intelligent you are in ignoring relevant elements of my posts and concentrating on further nonsense. No surprise, of course, because you simply do not have the faintest idea what you would be saying. No problem either, I did not expect anything else.
3) No, dear boy, Phase II engine is VERY DIFFERENT in a number of respects to other Impreza vintages and many other car manufacturers' engines. But, how would you know about it? Why don't you ask those where you get your knowledge and experience about ecus? I am sure they would know all about it.
4) Got it wrong again, Ian. It is not ME who has a problem, it is you who would like find out about so many things you do not know about and I am not an educational institution. Even good old Dr (Pat)Herborn is finding it a bit diffiult guessing the right thoughts about MoTeC and he is a capable guy in every respect.
So, I am glad to hear you don't care about what I think and want or do not want to explain. It will explain itself very soon when you see and hear about a few ROAD cars with PHASE II (and older) engines running wonderfully on your favourite ecu. Some are already doing brilliantly even slightly away from reasonable degree of perfection. And, for the record, one that you are aware of does NOT belong to the mentioned group.
Apologies for not being as mature as Rannoch who, basically, said exactly the same I have tried to convey to you. But, in spite of our age, we cannot all be mature.
bye, bye
q.
To put your mind at rest, just a few more riddles:
1) You CANNOT neither annoy me nor anger me. For that certain criteria need to be met.
2) Lovely to see how intelligent you are in ignoring relevant elements of my posts and concentrating on further nonsense. No surprise, of course, because you simply do not have the faintest idea what you would be saying. No problem either, I did not expect anything else.
3) No, dear boy, Phase II engine is VERY DIFFERENT in a number of respects to other Impreza vintages and many other car manufacturers' engines. But, how would you know about it? Why don't you ask those where you get your knowledge and experience about ecus? I am sure they would know all about it.
4) Got it wrong again, Ian. It is not ME who has a problem, it is you who would like find out about so many things you do not know about and I am not an educational institution. Even good old Dr (Pat)Herborn is finding it a bit diffiult guessing the right thoughts about MoTeC and he is a capable guy in every respect.
So, I am glad to hear you don't care about what I think and want or do not want to explain. It will explain itself very soon when you see and hear about a few ROAD cars with PHASE II (and older) engines running wonderfully on your favourite ecu. Some are already doing brilliantly even slightly away from reasonable degree of perfection. And, for the record, one that you are aware of does NOT belong to the mentioned group.
Apologies for not being as mature as Rannoch who, basically, said exactly the same I have tried to convey to you. But, in spite of our age, we cannot all be mature.
bye, bye
q.
20 August 2000, 08:44 PM
#26
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Gloucestershire, home of the lawnmower.
Posts: 4,531
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pat,
Sounds like you are taking on a fun project
Grandma, suck, eggs etc. but if you want some tips on building a loom from scratch, let me know.
The 'automagic' feature you talk of could possibly be the lambda target feature. You put in your required lambda at that load site and it calculates and fills in the fuel or ignition at that site. There are other 'automagic' features, but I guess this is the one you mean ?
Lambda usage is 6 hours as standard then it shuts off. I think the upgrade to permenant lambda is something like 500 notes.
Cheers
Ian
Sounds like you are taking on a fun project
Grandma, suck, eggs etc. but if you want some tips on building a loom from scratch, let me know.
The 'automagic' feature you talk of could possibly be the lambda target feature. You put in your required lambda at that load site and it calculates and fills in the fuel or ignition at that site. There are other 'automagic' features, but I guess this is the one you mean ?
Lambda usage is 6 hours as standard then it shuts off. I think the upgrade to permenant lambda is something like 500 notes.
Cheers
Ian
20 August 2000, 10:52 PM
#27
Ecu Specialist
Pat, no problem for a loom ,just ask Motec ... tell them exactly what you want and they will provide it. Just think it through first. Its no problem adding features afterwards either, no need to butcher the standard vehicle wiring at all. And it need only take as long as it takes to remove the kick plate, unplug and replug no more that 7 connectors and replace the kick plate to get back to standard ecu use. (extra sensors still inplace but not used)
Pat, apologies for not being able to talk much this weekend, with 5 cars to see to it was a bit hectic, ring during the week (after 20:30 is best) and I will have the time ... don't have your number or I'd call you back.
BTW ... wide band lambda is limited to 6 hours (then you pay for permanent use) BUT narrow band is free and unlimited, the "automagic" is the wide band lambda feature where you set up the lambda values and the ecu then targets them. You have to set in the targets though and manually accept the values offered. There is no timing or other auto tuning feature.
Bob
[This message has been edited by Bob Rawle (edited 20 August 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Bob Rawle (edited 20 August 2000).]
Pat, apologies for not being able to talk much this weekend, with 5 cars to see to it was a bit hectic, ring during the week (after 20:30 is best) and I will have the time ... don't have your number or I'd call you back.
BTW ... wide band lambda is limited to 6 hours (then you pay for permanent use) BUT narrow band is free and unlimited, the "automagic" is the wide band lambda feature where you set up the lambda values and the ecu then targets them. You have to set in the targets though and manually accept the values offered. There is no timing or other auto tuning feature.
Bob
[This message has been edited by Bob Rawle (edited 20 August 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Bob Rawle (edited 20 August 2000).]
21 August 2000, 09:53 PM
#30
Scooby Newbie
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi All,
My second ever post here, so I'll keep it fairly short
It seems there are some misconceptions about the Motec ECU. The plug and play aspect of the ECU is just that. There are no irreversible wirings to be done, or additional sensors to be added. The system could be fitted in minutes. The fitment of suitable lambda sensors for mapping extends this. Idle control is only a problem if the vehicle has Air Con etc which uses up the ECU's available outputs. Unless it's a stepper motor (Pat), more of which later.
With all the foresight in the world, an aftermarket ECU manufacturer can not second guess all the car manufacturers in the world, and has to think of their own costs and production schedule. So there is a finite number of outputs. When the vehicle requires such things as boost control, air conditioning pumps and fans, radiator fans, fuel pumps, water sprays, tacho drivers etc, these available outputs are used up very quickly. However, the control of idle speed is still usually possible, with careful tuning of load and speed sites around the idle region. It can not be said to be sub optimal!
The current ECU's are in excess of 5 years old now, and have had no hardware update since their launch, to be still at the forefront of aftermarket technology says something about the design strength and flexibility of the software. Stepper motors are a problem, nobody was using them 5 years ago, but this will be addressed soon, certainly by the end of the year when hardware will take a major step forward.
Of course MoTeC ECU's were meant for road cars, why else would they have narrow band lambda control? I hope nobody has been stupid enough to try and tune a performance car with narrow band lambda! Plus, there is the unrivalled diagnostics, data logging, sensor setup, I could go on and on, but nobody can offer this power and flexibility. There are numerous road cars of all vintages running MoTeC on the road, even to the point of a Jaguar E type conforming to California emissions, and making more power, and idling, 100% better than on a rival system. All this after 1 days mapping.
Of course there are things to do with a MoTeC ECU when you get it, they could always double the price and provide a fully mapped beautiful to drive road car map, but then they would not have the time to provide all of the other applications associated with the systems, free software from the website, data logging, anti-lag, drawings of installations and sensors, free from the web site etc etc. How many other systems provide this depth of information FOC? I think none. Plus the constant software updates, again FOC, with new applications. telephone or personal help, whenever required. How many ECU's will run the car from map sensor or airflow meter without any hassle. Need I go on?
MoTeC ECU's are huge in Australia. 95% of the Aussie touring car field use MoTeC ECU's and ADL's, and the other 5% have used them secretly!! 14 of 15 races in ATCC were won with MoTeC ECU's, together with Bathurst enduro, pole (fastest lap ever!!) and fastest race lap.
Three of MoTeC's own employees drive Subaru road cars with M48's fitted. What versions I don't know, sorry.
Regards
Aaron
[This message has been edited by Aaron Carr (edited 21 August 2000).]
My second ever post here, so I'll keep it fairly short
It seems there are some misconceptions about the Motec ECU. The plug and play aspect of the ECU is just that. There are no irreversible wirings to be done, or additional sensors to be added. The system could be fitted in minutes. The fitment of suitable lambda sensors for mapping extends this. Idle control is only a problem if the vehicle has Air Con etc which uses up the ECU's available outputs. Unless it's a stepper motor (Pat), more of which later.
With all the foresight in the world, an aftermarket ECU manufacturer can not second guess all the car manufacturers in the world, and has to think of their own costs and production schedule. So there is a finite number of outputs. When the vehicle requires such things as boost control, air conditioning pumps and fans, radiator fans, fuel pumps, water sprays, tacho drivers etc, these available outputs are used up very quickly. However, the control of idle speed is still usually possible, with careful tuning of load and speed sites around the idle region. It can not be said to be sub optimal!
The current ECU's are in excess of 5 years old now, and have had no hardware update since their launch, to be still at the forefront of aftermarket technology says something about the design strength and flexibility of the software. Stepper motors are a problem, nobody was using them 5 years ago, but this will be addressed soon, certainly by the end of the year when hardware will take a major step forward.
Of course MoTeC ECU's were meant for road cars, why else would they have narrow band lambda control? I hope nobody has been stupid enough to try and tune a performance car with narrow band lambda! Plus, there is the unrivalled diagnostics, data logging, sensor setup, I could go on and on, but nobody can offer this power and flexibility. There are numerous road cars of all vintages running MoTeC on the road, even to the point of a Jaguar E type conforming to California emissions, and making more power, and idling, 100% better than on a rival system. All this after 1 days mapping.
Of course there are things to do with a MoTeC ECU when you get it, they could always double the price and provide a fully mapped beautiful to drive road car map, but then they would not have the time to provide all of the other applications associated with the systems, free software from the website, data logging, anti-lag, drawings of installations and sensors, free from the web site etc etc. How many other systems provide this depth of information FOC? I think none. Plus the constant software updates, again FOC, with new applications. telephone or personal help, whenever required. How many ECU's will run the car from map sensor or airflow meter without any hassle. Need I go on?
MoTeC ECU's are huge in Australia. 95% of the Aussie touring car field use MoTeC ECU's and ADL's, and the other 5% have used them secretly!! 14 of 15 races in ATCC were won with MoTeC ECU's, together with Bathurst enduro, pole (fastest lap ever!!) and fastest race lap.
Three of MoTeC's own employees drive Subaru road cars with M48's fitted. What versions I don't know, sorry.
Regards
Aaron
[This message has been edited by Aaron Carr (edited 21 August 2000).]