PhilBennett

It seems that there is a great mystery to running these WRX's.

Everyone knows that the things are designed to run on 100 Octane (RON). So why are people surprised that they have trouble running there cars flat out (track days for instance) on Super Unleaded?

OK I'm sure for 99% of the time in everyday driving Super U/L is fine but why are people buying things like Knocklink to tell them what they already know?

It seems crazy to me that having invested £25K in something like a STI V.5 owners become all tight for the sake of buying the right fuel for a track day.

I'm sure we will see it on Sunday - oh how I'd like to be an engine builder on Monday morning - those cash registers will be busy!

R19KET

Phil,

Not all WRX's, or STi's det', and then it's to varying degrees.

The biggest problem is actually identifying if the car is detting, or not. The Knock Link solves this problem.

Most owners will also use an octane booster to be as safe as possible. When you say "buy the right fuel", where would we get this from.

Mark.

PhilBennett

Well if I was after "the right fuel" I'd take my jerry can to Silverstone circuit and ask for some Elf Racing unleaded which is £1.60 per litre. This would be a 99RON fuel and is a start.

When you say not all WRX have a det' problem that is obviously more by luck than judgement.


I'm sure with the right driver, weather conditions and type of driving you could run a WRX on 95 RON but the point is these motors need 100RON - The Japanese don't spend millions of yen on 100RON just for the sake of it.

This is common knowledge - you don't need a Knocklink to tell you.

Then we have the problems of octane booster. Unfortunately when you put "pump" Super Unleaded in the tank you really don't know what grade the fuel is or what composition this fuel is. You know what the minimum requirements are but that is it.

Hence when you add booster this may be spot on or a million miles away. This is OK for everyday use but on a track day - Hmmm.

Racing teams don't spend money on "proper" fuel for the sake of it. The fuels are specially blended and are a known specification so engines can be tuned to the limit.

In my opinion Knocklink, octane booster is just a lazy bodged up way of dealing with the problem.

Ian Cook

I dont suppose its anything to do with this

robski

Ian,

I cant see how you can possibly make that link

robski

GRUMPYGIT

Well spotted Ian......Phil if you've got something useful to sell and I think people will be interested in ron 100 at track days do yourself a favour and just say it. This approach just makes people think your a con man.

frisby

Phil did say in his other thread that he would provide the service of supplying race fuel.....he indicated costs and his margin so indicating that he may seem a con man is a bit harsh......

I agree with Phil on the use of proper fuel where cars are taken to the max. A few threads concerning oil indicate that people are very choosy about which oil they use in their motor......then they slosh 97 ron in to fuel a beast that was designed to run on 100 ron minimum........

laters

fris

R19KET

Phil,

Ahh, now all your recent posts make sense .

I would estimate that about half the cars on the Subaru track days are WRX/STi's. So far we have been very lucky, with only 1, or 2 cars failing due to fuel grade dettonation. That's out of many cars, doing several track days. A tiny %.

I do think that having a high octane fuel available, for those who may need it, is a good idea. Scare mongering to sell it (my perception) is IMHO, out of order.

Personally, I would concider it for the possible extra power, not because I'm worried about det'.

Mark.

RobMac

On a slightly different note, did you know that Elf do a turbo-specific fuel (along with FINA, Shell...etc.)? And that it is blended in such a way that it can give 30 - 40 BHP alone

The downside? It costs somewhere between £30-40 a LITRE !!!

It is intended for rallying engines, be it Gr.N, Gr.A, or even WRC cars.

You do need Prodrive to map your ECU for it though...

Rob

R19KET

Rob,

At £1800 + a tank full , I think I'd go for a full engine rebuild first.

Mark.

PhilBennett

Err - Hang on a minute.

If you read what I wrote above I have told everyone publicly where to get "proper" fuel from - (For those who missed it - Silverstone circuit). You guys simply need to make the effort and go there yourselves -and I have nothing to gain from this.

As for scare mongering - how is that? If you read though the BBS there are loads of posts regarding octane booster and det' problems.

I myself have experienced det' problems at one of the schools I work for and they (Palmers) have had TERRIBLE problems with det' (Phone them and ask if you think I'm kidding).

The bottom line is these engines need 100RON fuel and to put anything else in them is taking a risk - full stop.

As for me selling fuel - I think that there is an opportunity here. I have contacts that would enable me to obtain proper FIA World rally championship fuel as used by Prodrive, M-Sport, Ralliart, etc, etc.

If people want it then they know where I am. As RobMac has pointed out other fuels are mega money - so £2.50 per litre for FIA rally fuel, brought to the circuit is hardly ripping people off.

DYNT

Det. problem wit Subaru .... get a low temp. water thermostat.

This help....... have used it in Subaru WRX...STI ... Evolution ... VTEC .... etc. For track..rally and road use.

U can get it from Japan or even Prodrive if I'm not mistaken. Around 25-30 quids.

Water Injection can be use too but a bit more expencive. System 1s would be good to control Det.

Goto

Paul Wilson

I just went for a remap on 95 RON and then use 97 RON in the car, might still invest in a knocklink though.

GRUMPYGIT

Phil it seems I owe you an apology.....Big Sorry! I really thought you were doing this for commercial gain hence the reaction and as you say you are not I grovel before you ...Please bring some of your rocket fuel or I will be blamed for every knock , detonation or destoyed engine at what should be a great event. Sorry again!

PhilBennett

No worries GG - but I'm not bringing anything to Donington for fear of being lynched!!!

I still say there is a real problem with det' on these cars (or at least STI V.5) because:-

1 - I've experienced it in the school cars
2 - The fact people are buying Knocklink - I mean why buy one if you are completely un-concerned by it all?

I'm going to stay off the subject of fuel 'cos it seems a very emotive subject.

However apart from the octane booster the other solutions, re mapping the ECU (which really means reducing the advance on the ignition in this respect), lowering the compression ratio, etc - all reduces power.

Anyway that's me done on this subject - draw your own conclusions.

pwebb

Phil -
I think you are beginning to understand the sensitivities of some of us on this subject
;-) - don't worry - you won't get lynched as such but you will gather that some of us have healthy oppinions to air on the subject!...we can discuss further at Donington if you like though you would probably get bored quickly.

Fact - yes the car is designed for 100 RON fuel, the STI website also states that running on 'regular' fuel is also possible with a decrease in engine output (this only appeared on the web pages for version 6 onwards)

Fact - on-one but sti has really got any idea how the ecu really works on 99 and newer cars.... The ecu was changed from the more easily modified '98 and earlier versions.

Fact - most japan sourced 3rd party ECUs are also designed for 100 RON - so no point fitting one of those.

Fact - there are alternative engine management systems for the EJ20 engine - such as link and motec - however these have to be fitted/configured by experts and may invalidate warranties/increase insurance premiums

Fact - ALL 'oppinions' expressed by members of this list (myself included) are purely that - I don't believe anyone has any priviliged information from Fuji/sti on this subject.
Subaru themselves would be crazy to make an official statement on the subject and I am sure they never will - even though we would love them to.

It will remain a mystery as to how the ecu is able to compensate for poor fuel (ie how far it can retard ignition etc.)
Diagnostic tools such as the Subaru Select Monitor and to a lesser extent simple warning devices such as knocklink, are slowly enabling owners to understand a little more on this subject. However I would never suggest there is any 'gospel' to be preached and a lot of this anecdotal evidence is pure conjecture.

PLEASE be aware though, that people like myself who have invested a good deal of money in buying the car and modifying it are not impressed when people post throwaway statements of the..."all sti ver 5 engines blow up" variety - this is not on, cannot be proven and is very unhelpful. Worse still, it is probably a factor in reducing the saleability/resale value of used cars - unjustified in my oppinion.

Of the 'blown' engines that I have seen with my own eyes (and there have been a lot both wrx and sti, 99 and early model years)- ALL were run on incorrect (95 RON) fuel or had been run with aftermarket controllers fitted to play about with the mixture/valve timing etc.... all were quickly and effectively repaired - usually 'just' piston damage but occasionally short engine blocks required. I am not aware of any that have failed subsequently (kind of suggests the owners realised their mistakes).

I suggest that I stop here at the risk of repeating what has been said too many times already.

However it would be nice if all future postings on this subject were based entirely on verifiable facts.

I wish!

Paul W

R19KET

Paul,

Thank goodness for common sense.

Mark.

PhilBennett

Fair comment and I agree - excepting that the cars at Palmers (all be it that they do get a very VERY hard life) were damaged even after adding booster. Don't mis-understand me these may be the only cars in the world that have done this - but it is real.

I appologise if I gave the impression that all is doomed - I wasn't just saying this...

"if it does happen - why are we surprised when the car is designed for 100RON".

Ian Cook

Phil, its a strange phenomena with the V5 cars, some seem to suffer all the time with it, and some seem to never suffer at all, get 2 identical cars with knock links fitted and one will register probs the other will be fine, with the same grade of fuel etc etc, it seems quite bizarre. Its one of the reasons people are a little touchy about it, i know of a couple of V5 Type R's that have had a very hard life without a single problem, including track days etc, and 1 car that threw its engine on its first track day ? tres bizarre non

PhilBennett

Very!! Has anyone been into the guts of a motor that has gone bang - or isn't there much left?

Ian Cook

I have seen an early cars engine that had a chip upgrade fitted, i wont mention the name but it starts with S and ends with chip I didnt look inside it that much, but the hole in the block was quite enough ! It was so big you could put your fist in it !

All the cars at Palmer's have been rebuilt about 5 times now havent they ? I would think their workshop would be the place to see such a mess on a regular basis, although I understand that should stop or be reduced now they have been worked on.

IWatkins

Hi All,

Basically the Sti/Wrx owners have to turn to a compromise.

1. Run with 100RON fuel. (Not easy in the UK)
2. Retard ignition back to use 97/95RON fuel (I believe the ECU will learn this over time anyway, but not the other way ?)
3. Mechanically sort it via lowering compression etc.

Is that it ? Or can anybody say that they *know* it isn't just the fuel grade. For instance will lowering the intake charge temps (by quite a bit) let you run on 97RON without having to (or let the ECU) retard the ignition ? Or maybe run colder plugs etc.

Would larger intercooler (maybe front mount), more efficient turbo, water injection etc. help/solve the problem ?

Now I run my GT4 on 95 and 97RON depending where I fill up. I have my Unichip mapped to 95RON (Safeways rubbish) but with a little advance on that. I also have water injection. This way I can push hard (with the silly standard intake charge temps) on the crappy fuel.

If I manage to get 97RON (not very often) I get a slightly better drive (maybe) with even less risk of det.

I guess it all depends on the level of safety the owner requires against the desire for maximum tuned power.

Now I want my car to as powerful as possible on the worst fuel I get with some safety, my setup works.

I can improve the power by either increasing the risk of damage (dial in some more advance) or by improving the efficieny of the whole intake/cylinder system and lower the natural tendency to det due to temps.

Just some late evening ramblings.

Cheers

Ian Watkins (GT4)


[This message has been edited by IWatkins (edited 01-03-2000).]

RobMac

Phil,

Re the Palmer's STi V's...

Ask Keith Green why he ran the cars on 4-star for a while...

I have seen the mess the engines got into, and they were getting bad advice from third parties on how to fix this.

They even asked if I could source 4 new engines for them!

I have seen many STi 5's, both standard and modified, and the Palmer cars seem to be in a unique situation. They were giving off some strange readings when they were connected to diagnostic equpment.

The Palmer cars are not driven much harder than any others at a normal Track Day, but these particular cars have had problems, which are now being supposedly fixed. See me on Sunday and I'll tell you.

Rob.

PhilBennett

Rob - why did they ask you to get motors? Have you got some dodgy Glaswegan contacts - chassis number removal a speciality?!!? LOL.

Keith obviously had a deal on 4-star - never one to miss an opportunity to save a few quid!! I didn't know this however - I thought they just ran them with Super U/L and booster. We'll have a chat on Sunday as you know more of the detail than me.

Rob, correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the majority of Palmer problems mainly piston damage?

Another point is that I don't think there is a simple fix to this because if you think about how great a WRX STi Version is - why do IM Group continue to resist importing them officially?

Do you think it might be to avoid this? I don't know - it's just a question.

DYNT

Problem wit WRX

1. Headgasket
2. Piston Crown weak
3. Valve easily bend
4. Fuel rail design
5. Rear Crossmember
6. Engine block ... open deck
7. Oil pump
8. Gearbox
9. Conrod bolts
10. Crankshaft

STI

1. Fuel rail design
2. Piston Crown (some model)
3. Engine Block (some model)
4. Fuel pump
5. Conrod bolts

As for the ECU ... u can get away by retarding the ignition timing.... running lower boost .... using 100Ron fuel.

or

Water injection ... running lower temp. water thermostat .... as waz told before. In fact u can even mods. the cooling system too... water and oil.

This is just a rough guide .... ok. There is more if u do mods. to the engine.

Solution waz given by Phil ... 100Ron ELF fuel.....buy it and use it for track day.

As for Knocklink ... put it in ... no harm at all.

If u have further question ... do e-mail me.

Have fun with the GC8 .....

Bye.

RobMac

Phil,

Keith @ Palmer's asked me about engine supply because he knew of my contacts within the Subaru World. Not only throughout the country through the BBS and SIDC, but through friends who work at both Prodrive and I.M. They had, at the time, not got a great relationship with either Prodrive or I.M., to the point that J.P. fell out with THE main man at Subaru U.K. I was therefore in a much better position to try and help them.

They wanted the new engines purely because of the ptroblems with the cars they had; not able to get parts, continual blow - ups etc.

I suggested what was thought to be a better solution for them and this was agreed upon. I am not at liberty to divulge that agreement here (see me Sunday )

Most of the blow - ups were due to detonation on piston number three, although a couple were due to crank failure.

Basically I.M. previously couldn't import cars because the STI's etc. were built for the sole use of the Japanese market ie. 100RON fuel etc. as well as not being able to pass European emissions regulation tests. It is only after a LOT of persuasion and a LOT of money that SUK got Subaru Japan and Subaru Technica International to try and get an STi engine to pass the tests. Hence the P1. Although anyone who thinks this is just a modified STi5 is VERY seriously mistaken. Prodrive have done an unbelievable amount of work to get this car Euro - legal, and is now nothing like a Japanese market STi.

Rob.