Motec M800 ECU on a STI 7 or 8
13 October 2003, 10:11 AM
#1
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Just curious,
Has anyone successfully installed a M800 onto a STI 7 or 8? If so, what kind of wiring work was required? Or is an adaptor loom available on the market?
Interesting to note that aside from ECUTEK, there have not been much activity on the ECU tuning front for the new generation STIs.
Has anyone successfully installed a M800 onto a STI 7 or 8? If so, what kind of wiring work was required? Or is an adaptor loom available on the market?
Interesting to note that aside from ECUTEK, there have not been much activity on the ECU tuning front for the new generation STIs.
13 October 2003, 01:19 PM
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Originally posted by RT
That's because the Motec is mega bucks and not many people need the extra features the Motec offers. It's a state of the art ECU, however it's way over the top for everyday use. Ecutek is great value for money and has all the features needed for street use.
I think the M800 plugs straight in, or it has the adapter wiring to suit.
Cheers,
George.
[Edited by WREXY - 10/13/2003 1:21:42 PM]
Interesting to note that aside from ECUTEK, there have not been much activity on the ECU tuning front for the new generation STIs.
That's because the Motec is mega bucks and not many people need the extra features the Motec offers. It's a state of the art ECU, however it's way over the top for everyday use. Ecutek is great value for money and has all the features needed for street use.
I think the M800 plugs straight in, or it has the adapter wiring to suit.
Cheers,
George.
[Edited by WREXY - 10/13/2003 1:21:42 PM]
13 October 2003, 04:49 PM
#4
Have a look in the "Projects" section for "anyone doing over 400 bhp on new age yet ?" Darren's car is going well on a Motec 800 
The end result will depend a lot on the mapper though & Darren chose one that knows what he's up to
The end result will depend a lot on the mapper though & Darren chose one that knows what he's up to
14 October 2003, 11:05 AM
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Hi RT
we have done many 7's and 8' with M800
Richard ex MoTeC MD has now joined the TSL payroll
and would be happy to chat to you about the options. Unsurprisingly he has half a clue about this application.It may cost a little more than the others but is transportable to your next car.. whatever that may be which helps spread the cost over the next few motors and has many great features.
Please call or mail if we can help
Kind regards
Paul
TSL
14 October 2003, 01:15 PM
#7
Hi Paul,
Interesting that you have installed Motec 800's in many 7's & 8's. Do you have any results that you could post from standard or modified cars?
Thanks,
callum
Interesting that you have installed Motec 800's in many 7's & 8's. Do you have any results that you could post from standard or modified cars?
Thanks,
callum
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14 October 2003, 03:12 PM
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Hi RT.. we offer a specific STi loom within the package price.. The variants on the pins can be fun sometimes
Callum,.. we never rolling road them.. well not yet any way. All maps are written "live" on the road which makes for great driveability. So I can't give you any honest figures. We try to major on the improved tractability and drive with this conversion rather than "pub" figures
14 October 2003, 04:58 PM
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Motec IS very capable, my understanding of the early fitment of M800 on local cars was that they LOST power after fitment.. 
Go to somebody who can show you there results, or even let you have a go in a similarly modified car?
There's a lot of "chest puffing" to be had by everyone defending their own corners in this highly volatile arena.
My money is in the GEMS camp, managing to pull out 360bhp and 330 lb/ft Torque from my STi 7 with our own (Scooby Mania) exhaust a panel filter and ported headers being the only other mods!
GEMS is plug and go (in the right hands), Motec needs adapter looms and is a lot more expensive to buy for no apparent major gain in this area.
Ecutek is also an option and is noticeably "less spottable" if the car still has a main dealer warranty and that concerns you?
Mike.
Scooby Mania
Go to somebody who can show you there results, or even let you have a go in a similarly modified car?
There's a lot of "chest puffing" to be had by everyone defending their own corners in this highly volatile arena.
My money is in the GEMS camp, managing to pull out 360bhp and 330 lb/ft Torque from my STi 7 with our own (Scooby Mania) exhaust a panel filter and ported headers being the only other mods!
GEMS is plug and go (in the right hands), Motec needs adapter looms and is a lot more expensive to buy for no apparent major gain in this area.
Ecutek is also an option and is noticeably "less spottable" if the car still has a main dealer warranty and that concerns you?
Mike.
Scooby Mania
14 October 2003, 08:31 PM
#11
Ecu Specialist
There has been a fair amount of ecu tuning work done for these cars ... least I seem to have done quite a few using Motec M800 and ECUTek based remaps etc.
It really depends on what your objectives are and what other mods you are thinking about, the Motec comes in two guises, "generic" whch needs an adaptor loom or OEM which is straight plug and play and replaces the factory board, the oem cheaper as it does not need an adaptor loom, yes its dearer than Gems or a factory remap but you get far more for your money. This ecu on a STANDARD engine with headers, exhaust, turbo, induction, injectors, fmic etc will comfortably provide 400 bhp if mapped correctly, however its worth pointing out that I have managed a similar result on similar mods by remapping the factory ecu again using a STANDARD engine. Once the engine has been uprated (rods, pistons etc) then the Motec comes into its own having individual cylinder mapping for fueling which can then become essential.
The Gems is also a very capable ecu, I've mapped several now, it is not quite in the same league for adjustability of function but, of course, its price reflects that. There is no Link ecu available for these cars yet but when it is it too will be at least similar to the Gems (but cheaper)but not up to the Motec.
As an example a STi8 with std engine but headers, exhaust induction, injectors, same turbo as mine plus fuel pump etc is regularly running mid 11's for the quarter, not in the UK though but in Iceland, he does use VPower fuel. the car uses a M800 OEM and runs 1.5 bar mid and 1.3 bar to the redline. (remember these cars need an extra gear shift compared to a GC8).
At Scooby shootout a STi7 ran with both a Gems and my EcuTek remap, the car was 0.5 sec quicker using the factory remapped ecu coming 5th I think. A STi7 with RCM built engine and M800 also did very well, coming third I think.
So its all choice, as I say consider your ultimate objective and then choose an ecu to suit that ultimate objective. I use all of the above ecu's dependant on customer preference and end objective, a similar result can be achieved on the std engine with each, once you go internal then things become more involved and the choice of ecu should then be more considered.
The most important thing is to make sure that ALL your considered mods compliment each other, just using one manufacturers products, for example, will not always be sure to get the result you expect, be prepared to mix and match based on sound experience and talk to people with setups of similar type to get their experiences.
cheers
bob
It really depends on what your objectives are and what other mods you are thinking about, the Motec comes in two guises, "generic" whch needs an adaptor loom or OEM which is straight plug and play and replaces the factory board, the oem cheaper as it does not need an adaptor loom, yes its dearer than Gems or a factory remap but you get far more for your money. This ecu on a STANDARD engine with headers, exhaust, turbo, induction, injectors, fmic etc will comfortably provide 400 bhp if mapped correctly, however its worth pointing out that I have managed a similar result on similar mods by remapping the factory ecu again using a STANDARD engine. Once the engine has been uprated (rods, pistons etc) then the Motec comes into its own having individual cylinder mapping for fueling which can then become essential.
The Gems is also a very capable ecu, I've mapped several now, it is not quite in the same league for adjustability of function but, of course, its price reflects that. There is no Link ecu available for these cars yet but when it is it too will be at least similar to the Gems (but cheaper)but not up to the Motec.
As an example a STi8 with std engine but headers, exhaust induction, injectors, same turbo as mine plus fuel pump etc is regularly running mid 11's for the quarter, not in the UK though but in Iceland, he does use VPower fuel. the car uses a M800 OEM and runs 1.5 bar mid and 1.3 bar to the redline. (remember these cars need an extra gear shift compared to a GC8).
At Scooby shootout a STi7 ran with both a Gems and my EcuTek remap, the car was 0.5 sec quicker using the factory remapped ecu coming 5th I think. A STi7 with RCM built engine and M800 also did very well, coming third I think.
So its all choice, as I say consider your ultimate objective and then choose an ecu to suit that ultimate objective. I use all of the above ecu's dependant on customer preference and end objective, a similar result can be achieved on the std engine with each, once you go internal then things become more involved and the choice of ecu should then be more considered.
The most important thing is to make sure that ALL your considered mods compliment each other, just using one manufacturers products, for example, will not always be sure to get the result you expect, be prepared to mix and match based on sound experience and talk to people with setups of similar type to get their experiences.
cheers
bob
14 October 2003, 09:46 PM
#12
Paul, many thanks for answering and it will be interesting to hear how you get on once you RR the cars.
Having chosen to go the Ecutek route I am switching to a Motec 800 hence my interest in any background info. Please do not take this as a critisism of Ecutek - it's definately not. My car now runs very well compared to standard and the mapping work done so far has greatly enhanced it's performance - RR results to follow early November. I just can't help moving the goalposts
Having chosen to go the Ecutek route I am switching to a Motec 800 hence my interest in any background info. Please do not take this as a critisism of Ecutek - it's definately not. My car now runs very well compared to standard and the mapping work done so far has greatly enhanced it's performance - RR results to follow early November. I just can't help moving the goalposts
15 October 2003, 02:44 AM
#13
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My main "gripe" with ECUTEK is that I can't meddle with the maps as a owner, without going back to a tuner who has the re-flashing hardware. Since I'm not in the UK, this poses a real problem.
I ran an Autronic in my classic Rex, it was tuned first time out by an Australian chap. He would visit every few months for any major work. But in the interim, I could email him the maps and he could adjust them whereever he was, and then I would just download the new setting via laptop. Of course, KL for added safety.
Hence my question about the MOTEC, as Autronics can't run the STI AVCS (yet). Just wondering about price too. Approx how much is a GEMS compared to a M800 fitted and tuned?
I ran an Autronic in my classic Rex, it was tuned first time out by an Australian chap. He would visit every few months for any major work. But in the interim, I could email him the maps and he could adjust them whereever he was, and then I would just download the new setting via laptop. Of course, KL for added safety.
Hence my question about the MOTEC, as Autronics can't run the STI AVCS (yet). Just wondering about price too. Approx how much is a GEMS compared to a M800 fitted and tuned?
18 October 2003, 07:01 PM
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"As an example a STi8 with std engine but headers, exhaust induction, injectors, same turbo as mine plus fuel pump etc is regularly running mid 11's for the quarter, not in the UK though but in Iceland"
What turbo and injectors are you speaking of? Is the Iceland STi the same as the UK one?
What turbo and injectors are you speaking of? Is the Iceland STi the same as the UK one?
18 October 2003, 08:04 PM
#15
Ecu Specialist
Same turbo as I run on my STi5 which is a Garrett with a ported P20 turbine housing and adjustable actuator grafted onto it, injectors are 650cc, also has uprated fuel pump and SX regulator running elevated fuel pressure.
edited to add it its a Sti8 ... Eurospec car ie same as UK.
Bob
[Edited by Bob Rawle - 10/18/2003 8:06:16 PM]
edited to add it its a Sti8 ... Eurospec car ie same as UK.
Bob
[Edited by Bob Rawle - 10/18/2003 8:06:16 PM]
20 October 2003, 11:07 PM
#17
Ecu Specialist
Motec does not have knock control normally, should not need to if its mapped properly, it could be implemented though, yes I do have all the Gems kit as we do supply and map the Gems ecu in addition to the Link, Motec and EcuTek based remaps.
bob
bob
21 October 2003, 04:47 PM
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I agree with Bob when he says your ecu choice depends upon your objectives. You can remap the system based on the standard ecu, use an up-graded ecu to suit the car, or opt for a racecar engine management system.
Mapping based on the original ecu system has its limitations. If you go to the right dyno I'm sure a re-mapped standard ecu car will give 400bhp - but I have not seen one. Granted I do not have much experience with ECUTEK based maps on the original ecu I cannot comment on every setup, but the car referred to in Bob's post was run on G-Force's dyno on ECUTEK (without water injection which it had been mapped for) at 383BHP. The same car remapped on GEMS made 396BHP. At Scooby shootout that STi7 was 0.5 seconds quicker on the ECUTEK - running wter injection and the extra ignition advance it affords, so perhaps that was not a true indication of the difference between the two systems.
Personally, I do not believe in an ecu that cannot adjust fuel or ignition timing in real time. This makes the mapping process un-neccessarily long-winded and time consuming. Its perfect for providing off-the-shelf solutions - but that's not the route to getting the maximum performance in my book.
I've also worked with MoTeC engine management and data acquisition systems since 1997 - on Porsche Cup race cars, V8 Touring cars and Endurance racing GTs - and for a motorsport application I would not specify anything else. It is awesome - but not many people understand why. The main advantages of the system are built-in Data Logging facilities, Real-Time Telemetry, Can Bus Data stream connection, 32-bit chip processing, individual cylinder mapping, and numerous compensation maps for maximum performance.
Individual cylinder mapping is particularly important when mapping racecars. We ran the M8 Pro in V8 touring cars and an M880 on a Porsche GT3-R engine in the European Le Mans Series a couple of years ago to name a few. Individual cylinder mapping does not give you extra BHP as some people may have you think. The real advantage is in fuel comsumption. We made a 10-11% improvement on fuel consumption at WOT through individual cylinder mapping on an engine dyno - the real result was a saving of 6 litres of fuel in an 97 Litre tank - just happened to give us an extra lap in a 1.5 hour stint at most circuits. This was enough to win races and give regular podium finishes - worth its weight in gold!!
Now for road car use you don't need built in data-logging, or real-time telemetry, or a can-bus data stream connection. The chip processing speed is important in order to extract the maximum performance from features such as individual cylinder mapping - which is used 2-5% of the time on the road. Think of how much 100% throttle you actually use. So you're paying £3,000 + for a system for your car and using less than half of its features.
This is the primary reason we use GEMS for road-going Subarus - if you want a racecar we'll talk about MoTeC - but it has to be value for money at the end of the day. Gems has a knock control facility, the same compensation maps as the MoTeC, anti-lag and launch control built-in, diff control on the DCCD system, and full control of the variable valve-timing for around £1600 fitted.
At the end of the day an ECU is only as good as the person mapping it. If you get a MoTeC system mapped by someone who specialises in Pectel systems you may not get the best results. If you get the systems mapped by somebody who maps cars day-in and day-out you can be assured of getting what you pay for.
edited to say:
The latest version of GEMS software and ECUs is only available fro Steve Simpson Motorsport or G-Force. Due to the complexity of the variable valve timing control GEMS have decided not to make this version available for general use. There are a number of secondary 3-d tables to be set-up in order to make the system function correctly - and it is very easy to damage an engine if it is configured incorrectly. Similar to what is happening to some Skylines running the current HKS software.
Chris
G-Force Motorsport Ltd.
[Edited by aus73 - 10/21/2003 5:08:41 PM]
Mapping based on the original ecu system has its limitations. If you go to the right dyno I'm sure a re-mapped standard ecu car will give 400bhp - but I have not seen one. Granted I do not have much experience with ECUTEK based maps on the original ecu I cannot comment on every setup, but the car referred to in Bob's post was run on G-Force's dyno on ECUTEK (without water injection which it had been mapped for) at 383BHP. The same car remapped on GEMS made 396BHP. At Scooby shootout that STi7 was 0.5 seconds quicker on the ECUTEK - running wter injection and the extra ignition advance it affords, so perhaps that was not a true indication of the difference between the two systems.
Personally, I do not believe in an ecu that cannot adjust fuel or ignition timing in real time. This makes the mapping process un-neccessarily long-winded and time consuming. Its perfect for providing off-the-shelf solutions - but that's not the route to getting the maximum performance in my book.
I've also worked with MoTeC engine management and data acquisition systems since 1997 - on Porsche Cup race cars, V8 Touring cars and Endurance racing GTs - and for a motorsport application I would not specify anything else. It is awesome - but not many people understand why. The main advantages of the system are built-in Data Logging facilities, Real-Time Telemetry, Can Bus Data stream connection, 32-bit chip processing, individual cylinder mapping, and numerous compensation maps for maximum performance.
Individual cylinder mapping is particularly important when mapping racecars. We ran the M8 Pro in V8 touring cars and an M880 on a Porsche GT3-R engine in the European Le Mans Series a couple of years ago to name a few. Individual cylinder mapping does not give you extra BHP as some people may have you think. The real advantage is in fuel comsumption. We made a 10-11% improvement on fuel consumption at WOT through individual cylinder mapping on an engine dyno - the real result was a saving of 6 litres of fuel in an 97 Litre tank - just happened to give us an extra lap in a 1.5 hour stint at most circuits. This was enough to win races and give regular podium finishes - worth its weight in gold!!
Now for road car use you don't need built in data-logging, or real-time telemetry, or a can-bus data stream connection. The chip processing speed is important in order to extract the maximum performance from features such as individual cylinder mapping - which is used 2-5% of the time on the road. Think of how much 100% throttle you actually use. So you're paying £3,000 + for a system for your car and using less than half of its features.
This is the primary reason we use GEMS for road-going Subarus - if you want a racecar we'll talk about MoTeC - but it has to be value for money at the end of the day. Gems has a knock control facility, the same compensation maps as the MoTeC, anti-lag and launch control built-in, diff control on the DCCD system, and full control of the variable valve-timing for around £1600 fitted.
At the end of the day an ECU is only as good as the person mapping it. If you get a MoTeC system mapped by someone who specialises in Pectel systems you may not get the best results. If you get the systems mapped by somebody who maps cars day-in and day-out you can be assured of getting what you pay for.
edited to say:
The latest version of GEMS software and ECUs is only available fro Steve Simpson Motorsport or G-Force. Due to the complexity of the variable valve timing control GEMS have decided not to make this version available for general use. There are a number of secondary 3-d tables to be set-up in order to make the system function correctly - and it is very easy to damage an engine if it is configured incorrectly. Similar to what is happening to some Skylines running the current HKS software.
Chris
G-Force Motorsport Ltd.
[Edited by aus73 - 10/21/2003 5:08:41 PM]
21 October 2003, 08:50 PM
#20
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Does the Motec cater for knock correction? As we all know this is very useful to have when running big power scooby's.
Bob, do you have the GEMS software and cable???
Bob, do you have the GEMS software and cable???
.....Carlos H.
22 October 2003, 05:05 AM
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Bob (and any other interested) I am finishing to do some R&D on a simple and effective device that will enable a MOTEC ECU to read det and to react agains it (basically retard timing). This will be directly connected to the ECU .
Carlos H.
.Carlos H.
22 October 2003, 07:44 AM
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"The latest version of GEMS software and ECUs is only available fro Steve Simpson Motorsport or G-Force. Due to the complexity of the variable valve timing control GEMS have decided not to make this version available for general use"
This must be real rocket science if Bob Rawle is not trusted to work it out ;-)
This must be real rocket science if Bob Rawle is not trusted to work it out ;-)
23 October 2003, 02:21 PM
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Makes you wonder how a company can be so short sighted as to let only one person / developer have it. Everybody should be allowed access to it who buys a GEMS (yes I mean me!) ECU. The simple rule is once you have had your car mapped by Steve / mapper and you take the software yourself then your warranty goes from the person who mapped it. It becomes your own responsibiilty!
I am going to persue GEMS / Steve because I want the software!:O
Still, Steve must be laughing being the only Franchise!
I am going to persue GEMS / Steve because I want the software!:O
Still, Steve must be laughing being the only Franchise!
23 October 2003, 09:45 PM
#27
Ecu Specialist
"rocket science" ... it is once its all mapped properly, Gems have never made any of their software generally available, they are too small an outfit to provide the support, when I approached them at the end of last year they even took the option of checking around to see if I was capable .. lol.
Anyway I have not had any problem getting product/template files etc from then directly and don't anticipate any in the future as I've been mapping these cars with the vvt since late last year using Motec and oem ecu's.
Steve is actually not the only person dealing with gems, there are a couple more although I believe they are focused on the rally scene and not road cars.
bob
Anyway I have not had any problem getting product/template files etc from then directly and don't anticipate any in the future as I've been mapping these cars with the vvt since late last year using Motec and oem ecu's.
Steve is actually not the only person dealing with gems, there are a couple more although I believe they are focused on the rally scene and not road cars.
bob
